Silicone Grease And Stress Cracking

[Makar]

Having sent three pens to Scotlands main man in the pen repair world - Eric Eckiethump - I thought I would check further on the silicone and vaseline debate. 'Not again' I hear you yawn... I was concerned by what seemed mostly anecdote in relation to the barrel cracking blamed, possibly, on silicone use in servicing. Gave Tom Westerich a shout and he double checked with his MB contact and it seems that there was a 10% return rate of MBs (resin) displaying stress cracking over a period where silicone use was reported. Switched to vaseline, problem went away. Quite compelling but no science that I could find in here at least.

 

I would be interested to know what members think of the statements made by this producer of silicone with regards to possible stress cracking in plastics. The foot of page 11 has the main detail of interest.

 

Stress cracking in plastic

 

I am electing to use vaseline for the 149 service currently underway. It would be good if somebody with a pile of bits of resin could perform the tests as suggested by the silicone producer.

 

thanks

Stephen

Edited April 1, 2011 by Makar

[Michael R.]

Many thanks for your post!

 

Finally some official manufacturer's insight.

 

Still I would be interested in a scientific explanation (out of personal interest) :-)

 

I contacted one of the leading plastic manufacturers about this but have not received an answer.

 

Cheers

 

Michael

 

PS: by the way, I follow Tom's and Max's advice and use vaseline on my Montblancs!

[hari317]

Very interesting, thanks for the input.

 

Edit:This google books search throws up a lot of interesting results: link

Edited April 1, 2011 by hari317

[Makar]

I think it would be great to gather a variety of pen plastics and a variety of lubricants and do some testing with application of chemicals. Some science is required to ensure compatibility, as the silicone manufacturer suggests.

[Montecristo]

Thanks for the post. I am not sure whether this has been discussed here previously, but what would be recommended for lubrication of celluloid MB's (in this case a 1950's 149)? Does silicone have the same deteriorating effect on celluloid as on resin? Thanks for any input / recommendations.

[SamCapote]

That information on page 11 is very interesting. Takes it from speculative to a known issue under the right circumstances.

[Pen Nut]

Many thanks for your post!

 

Finally some official manufacturer's insight.

 

Still I would be interested in a scientific explanation (out of personal interest) :-)

 

I contacted one of the leading plastic manufacturers about this but have not received an answer.

 

Cheers

 

Michael

 

PS: by the way, I follow Tom's and Max's advice and use vaseline on my Montblancs!

 

Posted by myself in January of this year: "A few points I did pick up on, there is a lot of differing opinions on lubricating the piston. I went for a touch of Vaseline on the advice of an ex MB worker who made reference to silicon grease 'possibly' being the cause of some pens suffering cracks from the use of this."

[Makar]

Posted by myself in January of this year: "A few points I did pick up on, there is a lot of differing opinions on lubricating the piston. I went for a touch of Vaseline on the advice of an ex MB worker who made reference to silicon grease 'possibly' being the cause of some pens suffering cracks from the use of this."

 

Not sure what you mean here by reference to your previous post in January? The 'possibly' part falls way short of conclusive. It cetainly has been noted here that MB felt there was an issue with silicone grease, by you, it appears and others but I have not seen posted any scientific basis for this issue. It appears that there is? The Pelikan thread on using vaseline mainly suggests that silicone is inert and cannot do any harm. It can - even the manufacturers of it say so. I had not noted that here before - if it has been then sorry for wasting any time. That was my reason for posting the link to the methodology to ascertain compatibility of silicone to various plastics before widespread use. Silicone is known in the industry (chemical lubricants) to cause issues with some plastics - test first in the way described. Blind faith has not been a big hit with me over the years - rather combining expert experience with science if available.

[niksch]

Posted by myself...

 

You are the man Pen Nut. Keep up the good research.

Edited April 2, 2011 by niksch

[eckiethump]

 

Posted by myself in January of this year: "A few points I did pick up on, there is a lot of differing opinions on lubricating the piston. I went for a touch of Vaseline on the advice of an ex MB worker who made reference to silicon grease 'possibly' being the cause of some pens suffering cracks from the use of this."

 

I think most people with an interest in this are aware of this information, long before January of this year. The new to me and others information supplied, is from the silicon manufacturers, indemnifying MB's statements on silicon use being adverse to the well being of their 1980's pens.

et

[SamCapote]

 

Posted by myself in January of this year: "A few points I did pick up on, there is a lot of differing opinions on lubricating the piston. I went for a touch of Vaseline on the advice of an ex MB worker who made reference to silicon grease 'possibly' being the cause of some pens suffering cracks from the use of this."

 

I think most people with an interest in this are aware of this information, long before January of this year. The new to me and others information supplied, is from the silicon manufacturers, indemnifying MB's statements on silicon use being adverse to the well being of their 1980's pens.

et

 

I was not aware of the lube issue until receiving a 149 that was stiff a week ago, and have had a number of 149 & 146's for over a year, but all had nice working pistons.

[mohanjude]

I am following this thread and the previous threads about Silicon grease with interest. I have several 146 pens where having removed the nib section and destroyed the bubble gum sealant I have used Silicon grease and so far it has not cracked in daily use. The Modern 146 nib holders do not use sealant and therefore this issue does not crop up.

 

I am however worried that one day the section will crack in the pens that I have used Silicon grease. Some of these pens I use daily and it has been around 2 years and there is no sign of leaks or cracks. Since the debate around Silicon grease I have now become more adapt at pulling the nib out along with the feed and leaving the nib holder in place in the section in the older 146 and 149 pens. This sometimes requires quite a bit of force even after applying heat and I worry that I will crack the section when applying force to pull the nib and feed out. It is that prising motion side by side that gets it released.

 

Do you think it makes a difiference if the Silicon grease is on the barrel where the piston is moving up and down? Is it this constant 'lubrication' that might stress the resin over time to cause it to crack?

 

If I am going to switch to Vaseline any recommendations on what I should use here in the UK? Can I simply buy Vaseline from the Chemist or do I need to find a pure 100% formulation?

 

Couple of months ago I watched with aghast my 149 pen rolling on to some alcohol swabs (70%) that I had left on my desk - it came in contact for a matter of seconds and the barrell developed a crack in front of my eyes. Not sure if the Alcohol caused the Resin to crack but as soon as I wiped the alochol off the barrell the black resin discoloured to a whitish streak and the crack developed. This was a Resin pen and not a celluloid. I am sure I have read on the threads in this forum that ALcohol is toxic to the Resin as well.

Edited April 3, 2011 by mohanjude

[eckiethump]

I was not aware of the lube issue until receiving a 149 that was stiff a week ago, and have had a number of 149 & 146's for over a year, but all had nice working pistons.

 

It has been going around for a number of years, but until getting into the minutiae of detail on a particular brand or model, is something you could quite easily not have been aware of.

For my part the information supplied by Makar is new to me, from a source whose interests are not best served, in that they are selling a product, but advising against it's use with certain products.

The detail is perhaps minor, 1:10 pens affected and not conclusive evidence from previous sources, the newly revealed source, independent to MB's interests, indemnifies what MB have been saying all along about their 1980's resin 146 pens.

My course of action for the future will be to advise silicon, but make customers aware of the choice, for what is after all their pens.

Eric

[draeroheli]

I have now become more adapt at pulling the nib out along with the feed and leaving the nib holder in place in the section in the older 146 and 149 pens. This sometimes requires quite a bit of force even after applying heat and I worry that I will crack the section when applying force to pull the nib and feed out. It is that prising motion side by side that gets it released.

 

"How do you put the nib/feeder back into the housing collar which is still in the barrel? Perhaps similar to Parker Duofold, just push them back into the housing collar which is inside the barrel. MB pens are very tight fit, difficult to push it back."

 

Do you think it makes a difiference if the Silicon grease is on the barrel where the piston is moving up and down? Is it this constant 'lubrication' that might stress the resin over time to cause it to crack?

 

"I think it is the chemical reaction rather than actual friction of piston moving up and down."

 

If I am going to switch to Vaseline any recommendations on what I should use here in the UK? Can I simply buy Vaseline from the Chemist or do I need to find a pure 100% formulation?

 

"Vaseline from Chemist should be fine as we use a minute amount of vaseline on the lip of the piston if the piston is very tight".

 

Couple of months ago I watched with aghast my 149 pen rolling on to some alcohol swabs (70%) that I had left on my desk - it came in contact for a matter of seconds and the barrell developed a crack in front of my eyes. Not sure if the Alcohol caused the Resin to crack but as soon as I wiped the alochol off the barrell the black resin discoloured to a whitish streak and the crack developed. This was a Resin pen and not a celluloid. I am sure I have read on the threads in this forum that ALcohol is toxic to the Resin as well.

 

"Thank you for giving us your testimony about alcohol and resin. One of the forum members posted some time ago about this alcohol melting the resin showing the picture of his melt down MB pen. Thank you for reminding us."

 

Cheers! and best wishes,

 

Htin

[Pen Nut]

Couple of months ago I watched with aghast my 149 pen rolling on to some alcohol swabs (70%) that I had left on my desk - it came in contact for a matter of seconds and the barrell developed a crack in front of my eyes. Not sure if the Alcohol caused the Resin to crack but as soon as I wiped the alochol off the barrell the black resin discoloured to a whitish streak and the crack developed. This was a Resin pen and not a celluloid. I am sure I have read on the threads in this forum that ALcohol is toxic to the Resin as well.

 

"Thank you for giving us your testimony about alcohol and resin. One of the forum members posted some time ago about this alcohol melting the resin showing the picture of his melt down MB pen. Thank you for reminding us."

 

+ 1 on that. I had no idea that alcohol would have such an instant reaction to the resin!

 

No more stirring my whiskey and ice with any MB's

[Montecristo]

Dear Eric, any advise on silicone lubrication vs celluloid? Thanks, Mike

[mohanjude]

Couple of months ago I watched with aghast my 149 pen rolling on to some alcohol swabs (70%) that I had left on my desk - it came in contact for a matter of seconds and the barrell developed a crack in front of my eyes. Not sure if the Alcohol caused the Resin to crack but as soon as I wiped the alochol off the barrell the black resin discoloured to a whitish streak and the crack developed. This was a Resin pen and not a celluloid. I am sure I have read on the threads in this forum that ALcohol is toxic to the Resin as well.

 

"Thank you for giving us your testimony about alcohol and resin. One of the forum members posted some time ago about this alcohol melting the resin showing the picture of his melt down MB pen. Thank you for reminding us."

 

+ 1 on that. I had no idea that alcohol would have such an instant reaction to the resin!

 

No more stirring my whiskey and ice with any MB's

 

Funny ... you might be ok to continue stiring the whisky... I assume the Whisky you are drinking is heavenly Scottish varieties at 40% alcohol by volume and once you mix it even if it is just on the rocks it may be down to 25% Alcohol in volume.

 

My swabs were 70% so I assume were more toxic..

[rockspyder]

... I had no idea that alcohol would have such an instant reaction to the resin!

....and to many other materials it makes contact with. I still find it utterly incomprehensible that an organic solvent, so toxic and flammable, is still imbibed - with monotonous regularity - as a beverage by some indivduals...

 

 

Now I better run again... :roflmho:

 

 

 

Some more experienced restorers I have spoken to, do not think that there is much difference between silicone and vaseline, and have found no problems after 10 years of using either.

However, with other plastics (specifically on my ATV's) the manufacturers warn that silicone based sprays to polish the bodywork, have been found to soften the plastic trim in some instances. I therefore rather use carnauba wax.

In my pens, both vintage and modern, I use vaseline. :embarrassed_smile: maybe I will one day be proven wrong, but I have never had problems. The first stiff and leaking MB piston (a Dumas) I lubed myself was only recently, after reading about it here, and since the vaseline lube it has been problem free.

OK, I believe that vaseline in a dust-exposed environment is a horrible idea, it forms an abrasive grinding paste, but in the isolated environment of a pen barrel, it is a different story. Much less likely to go wrong.

Celluloid is a biological material - I would imagine a wax- or lanolin- based lubricant makes more sense. Would you rather use vaseline/lip-ice, or a silicone grease, on your own skin?? Just wondering....I know I'm sticking my head out quite far here...let's see what happens... :embarrassed_smile:

[mohanjude]

... I had no idea that alcohol would have such an instant reaction to the resin!

....and to many other materials it makes contact with. I still find it utterly incomprehensible that an organic solvent, so toxic and flammable, is still imbibed - with monotonous regularity - as a beverage by some indivduals...

 

 

Now I better run again... :roflmho:

 

 

 

Some more experienced restorers I have spoken to, do not think that there is much difference between silicone and vaseline, and have found no problems after 10 years of using either.

However, with other plastics (specifically on my ATV's) the manufacturers warn that silicone based sprays to polish the bodywork, have been found to soften the plastic trim in some instances. I therefore rather use carnauba wax.

In my pens, both vintage and modern, I use vaseline. :embarrassed_smile: maybe I will one day be proven wrong, but I have never had problems. The first stiff and leaking MB piston (a Dumas) I lubed myself was only recently, after reading about it here, and since the vaseline lube it has been problem free.

OK, I believe that vaseline in a dust-exposed environment is a horrible idea, it forms an abrasive grinding paste, but in the isolated environment of a pen barrel, it is a different story. Much less likely to go wrong.

Celluloid is a biological material - I would imagine a wax- or lanolin- based lubricant makes more sense. Would you rather use vaseline/lip-ice, or a silicone grease, on your own skin?? Just wondering....I know I'm sticking my head out quite far here...let's see what happens... :embarrassed_smile:

 

 

Actually Silicon is probably one of the most inert substances. Breast implants are made out of silicone. The urinary catheters that are used for catherisation last much longer - as much as 3 months inside the bladder if they are made out of silicone rather than the cheaper materials that only last a month or so.

 

I have never prescribed silicon grease for skin ailments but plenty of vaseline or petroleum jelly based lubricants such as Paraffin 50/50 mix to patients with skin ailments.

 

In answer to your question I would rather put lip balm (Vaseline) on my lips rather than silicon grease but maybe I should give it a go??

[rockspyder]

Yes indeed, implanted silicone is very common, also in my work (ophthalmology): intra-ocular lenses, glaucoma shunt valves, scleral buckles, silicone oil for retinal tamponade.....but it is never used as a lubricant!