Sheaffer Watch

[wspohn]

Many of the pen companies made other items either as stand-alone products or as adjuncts to the pen production. Parker, for instance, made lighters and such.

 

Sheaffer had some 15 jewel European movements with rather snazzy mother of pearl faces made up, but you rarely see them. As a watch collector as well as a pen nut, I couldn't resist this one, although I may ebay it or trade it for a pen, as it is outside my normal watch collecting area.

 

Anyone else seen one of these?

 

http://www.rhodo.citymax.com/i/non-rhodo/sheafferwatch.jpg

 

http://www.rhodo.citymax.com/i/non-rhodo/sheafferwatch2.jpg

[kirchh]

Do you have some supporting information that indicates that this item is connected with the Sheaffer pen company? It would seem odd that Sheaffer wouldn't display their name using their logo font, and that they would spell it "Sheaffer" rather than "Sheaffer's". Therefore, based on just the appearance of the item, I am not convinced this watch has any connection to Sheaffer pen.

 

--Daniel

[wspohn]

There is obviously no way of knowing for sure, but the precedent of the pen company (also a jewellery company) having earlier pocket watches made for them - see Pocketwatch plus the fact that Kochmann's Trademark Index of European Clocks and Watches discloses no other maker using that mark would lead to the conclusion that this wristwatch is a continuation of the pen company's earlier advertising activities.

 

I'd certainly be interested if anyone knows anything more about these.

[kirchh]

There is obviously no way of knowing for sure, but the precedent of the pen company (also a jewellery company) having earlier pocket watches made for them - see Pocketwatch plus the fact that Kochmann's Trademark Index of European Clocks and Watches discloses no other maker using that mark would lead to the conclusion that this wristwatch is a continuation of the pen company's earlier advertising activities.

 

I'd certainly be interested if anyone knows anything more about these.

Well, there are actually many ways to know for sure; we could have advertisements or guarantee papers that give the full company name, for example -- or similar materials that make it clear that the Sheaffer watch has no connection to Sheaffer pen.

 

The precedent you describe does not apply; the Sheaffer pen company was not also a jewelry company. The Sheaffer family jewelry stores had private-label watches made for them prior to Walter Sheaffer leaving the jewelry business for the pen business. The fact that the Sheaffer jewelry stores sold watches with their name on them at the turn of the 20th centry provides no support for a claim that a decades-later wristwatch was a product of the Sheaffer pen company.

 

Why would Sheaffer make watches as an "advertising activity" yet fail to use their own trademarked logo on those watches?

 

--Daniel

Edited October 15, 2006 by kirchh

[wspohn]

Why would Sheaffer make watches as an "advertising activity" yet fail to use their own logo and company name spelling on those watches?

 

--Daniel

I did not suggest that Sheaffer MADE watches and indeed would be very surprised if that were the case, as they never had any history of making or even assembling watches as far as I know.

 

Companies typically just had their names placed on watches constructed by other companies - this was very common, and we see many watches, some of them of high quality, marketed by local or national jewellery chains. The company of Birks and Mayors Inc. in Canada has been doing this for over 100 years, although (perhaps like the Sheaffer) they do not use the complete company name but simply emblazon their watches with 'Birks'.

 

As there is no watch company (at least that I have been able to find) going by the Sheaffer name, this particular watch ius likely to have been an advertising watch for a company named Sheaffer, just like lighters, jewellery, pocket knives and key chains (those are all actual examples from Parker). I have no direct evidence that this Sheaffer company was the watch company, however I have been told of other watches alleged to be made for them. Unless someone has a catalogue of such things for Sheaffer, it may be difficult to ever make a documented attribution.

[kirchh]

The company of Birks and Mayors Inc. in Canada has been doing this for over 100 years, although (perhaps like the Sheaffer) they do not use the complete company name but simply emblazon their watches with 'Birks'.

 

Birks & Mayors has not been private-labeling watches for over 100 years, as the company by that name came into existence four years ago. The logo currently used on the watches is registered to B&M (ser. no. 78258114). Therefore, the parallel does not hold.

 

As there is no watch company (at least that I have been able to find) going by the Sheaffer name...

 

A 'Sheaffer' trademark registration application was made in 1993 in the watches and clocks category (not connected to Sheaffer pen).

 

I have no direct evidence that this Sheaffer company was the watch company, however I have been told of other watches alleged to be made for them

 

I would encourage you to ask those who told you of such items to provide pictures and any available documentation to help determine the source(s) of those items. Absent something beyond the name on the dial (in a style never trademarked by Sheaffer pen), such tenuous information is of very little value in determining the origin of your watch.

 

Unless someone has a catalogue of such things for Sheaffer, it may be difficult to ever make a documented attribution.

 

Agreed -- thus, the unqualified assertion that "Sheaffer had some 15 jewel European movements with rather snazzy mother of pearl faces made up" and the presentation of a purported example of same are not supportable, in my estimation.

 

--Daniel

Edited October 17, 2006 by kirchh

[wspohn]

Birks & Mayors has not been private-labeling watches for over 100 years, as the company by that name came into existence four years ago. The logo currently used on the watches is registered to B&M (ser. no. 78258114). Therefore, the parallel does not hold.

Sigh....I AM aware of that. I simply (and correctly) used the current name of the company when referring to it.

 

 

As far as the parallel not holding, they didn't use the previous name (Henry Birks & Sons Ltd.) either on watches to any great degree (although it was more common on clocks - perhaps the larger faces offered more room). The just used they 'Birks' label, as they continue to do today.

[kirchh]

As far as the parallel not holding, they didn't use the previous name (Henry Birks & Sons Ltd.) either on watches to any great degree (although it was more common on clocks - perhaps the larger faces offered more room). The just used they 'Birks' label, as they continue to do today.

Exactly -- there are quite logical explanations for not using the 23-character name on a watch face, where the five-character version (registered to that company) would fit far better. But that reasoning does not apply to why a company would choose "Sheaffer" over "Sheaffer'S" and change the font to one never seen on any other of their products -- and, thus, the parallel does not hold.

 

--Daniel

[Mary P]

I have Sheaffer pens that are marked "Sheaffer Pen Company", "Sheaffers", "Sheaffer's" and "Sheaffer's Clip". I don't thinks the misssing "s" proves that the watch was not produced for the Sheaffer Pen Company.

 

I do not know if Sheaffer ever distributed watches to employees but it wouldn't surprise if they did. They put the company name on pates, mugs, and a wide variety of personal accessories that were given as awards to employees. I remember an article Dan Reppert wrote about such items were he displayed his collection of Sheaffer memorabilia.

[kirchh]

I have Sheaffer pens that are marked "Sheaffer Pen Company", "Sheaffers", "Sheaffer's" and "Sheaffer's Clip".

 

You may not be familiar with the trademark and branding history of Sheaffer. Sheaffer rarely changed its corporate image, and as a result they have used very few different logos on their products. When just the single name was used as a mark on pens, it was "Sheaffer'S" starting continuously from about 1922. This logo was rendered in a stylized manner, which was trademarked. This trademark was altered to a modernized sans-serif logo that first clearly appeared in print in November of 1934, as best I can determine, and on actual pens briefly in the mid 1930s and enduringly starting about 1945. That stylized trademark was likewise registered. Sheaffer dropped the "'S" around 1964, and they again altered the typeface. A cursive version appeared on some products starting in 1989, but it doesn't resembe that seen here.

 

I doubt you have a pen marked "Sheaffer's Clip", though you may have a pen bearing a clip marked "SHEAFFER CLIP". I would be interested to see a pen branded as "Sheaffers" alone with no apostrophe and a lower-case final 's'.

 

I don't thinks the misssing "s" proves that the watch was not produced for the Sheaffer Pen Company.

 

I have never made the claim that "the missing 'S' proves that the watch was not produced for the Sheaffer Pen Company." What I actually said is that it seems odd that Sheaffer would brand such a watch with a logo that never appeared on any verifiable Sheaffer product I've seen, in particular with respect to the missing 'S' [applies to the period prior to 1964] and even more strongly with respect to the use of a stylized rendering of the name that corresponds with neither any known trademark of the Sheaffer pen company, nor any logo I've ever seen on a Sheaffer pen. Your examples do not help resolve that oddity, because none of them corresponds to the logo on the watch shown. In addition, one of your examples is not a logo, but the full company name; two include the final 's'; and one is pre-1922 and refers to the clip alone, so there is no relevance to the item under discussion.

 

I also said that, for the reasons articulated above and herein, the unqualified claim that the watch shown was made by the Sheaffer pen company is unsupportable. Do you disagree, or do you feel that there is sufficient evidence to determine that the watch shown here was made by Sheaffer pen?

 

I do not know if Sheaffer ever distributed watches to employees but it wouldn't surprise if they did. They put the company name on pates, mugs, and a wide variety of personal accessories that were given as awards to employees.

 

Indeed. Every such item I've seen has had one of the well-known Sheaffer logos on it. I, too, wouldn't be surprised if Sheaffer gave watches to employees as awards -- but I would be surprised if those watches bore a Sheaffer logo never seen on any pen product.

 

--Daniel

Edited October 17, 2006 by kirchh

[Mary P]

I don't know if the watch in question has any connection to the pen company or not.

 

The "Sheaffer Clip" mark is on the clip of a pre-1924 BCHR Sheaffer.

 

"SHEAFFERS" with no apostraphe all letters in caps and with both letters "S" larger than any of the other letters is the mark on clip of my Sovereign. The black body of the pen itself says "WA Sheaffer Pen Company". My Adriatic Seas Pen says "SHEAFFERS - LEVENGER" all caps no apostraphe neither S enlarged.

 

My point was only that we don't know enough to make a definative statement about this piece. Items produced in small quantities and used as employee premiums or gifts almost never make it into catelogues. Items that are produced under license almost always carry a trademarked name of the company but small runs are not always produced under license. Documentation of such items almost always relies on what antique appraisers call provinance. I don't have that documentation so I can't say the watch is related to the company. Neither can I say for certain that it is not.

[jaytaylor]

What a stir this watch has created!

 

Now to getthings really going.....now where did I put that sheaffer bed pan?????

[kirchh]

I don't know if the watch in question has any connection to the pen company or not.

 

The "Sheaffer Clip" mark is on the clip of a pre-1924 BCHR Sheaffer.

 

"SHEAFFERS" with no apostraphe all letters in caps and with both letters "S" larger than any of the other letters is the mark on clip of my Sovereign. The black body of the pen itself says "WA Sheaffer Pen Company". My Adriatic Seas Pen says "SHEAFFERS - LEVENGER" all caps no apostraphe neither S enlarged.

 

My point was only that we don't know enough to make a definative statement about this piece. Items produced in small quantities and used as employee premiums or gifts almost never make it into catelogues. Items that are produced under license almost always carry a trademarked name of the company but small runs are not always produced under license. Documentation of such items almost always relies on what antique appraisers call provinance. I don't have that documentation so I can't say the watch is related to the company. Neither can I say for certain that it is not.

Hmm, now I'm puzzled; you seem to agree with my position quite precisely -- it can't be flatly asserted that this watch issues from Sheaffer pen -- and the logo doesn't match any used on a Sheaffer pen of which you are aware. But it certainly seemed that your prior post was framed as a challenge or disagreement with my statements on the matter. Can you clarify? What that I've written (if anything) do you disagree with?

 

Also, I still don't understand how the logos you cite bear on the issue at hand; what point are you making there?

 

By 'Sovereign', do you mean a Snorkel pen of that model? In any case, I would be most interested to see this version of the logo with no apostrophe. Can you post a picture?

 

--Daniel

[wspohn]

What a stir this watch has created!

 

Now to getthings really going.....

And to think I only paid for the 5 minute argument..... :ltcapd:

[Mary P]

By 'Sovereign', do you mean a Snorkel pen of that model? In any case, I would be most interested to see this version of the logo with no apostrophe. Can you post a picture?

 

Yes. I mean a Snorkel with an open nib. I'm attaching a picture of the cap.

Edited October 16, 2006 by Mary P

[kirchh]

Can you get a close-up of the logo? I can't tell from the picture whether there's an apostrophe or not.

 

Thanks --

--Daniel

[Mary P]

This is the best I can do with my digital camera.

Can you see from this?

[Roger W.]

Mary;

 

Looking at a similar clip the appostrophe S becomes clear in your picture as well.

 

Roger W.

[kirchh]

Can you see from this?

Yes. There is an apostrophe.

 

--Daniel

[wspohn]

Whether older Sheaffers have an apostrophe may be largely irrelevant to the issue at hand. The later Sheaffers simply used 'SHEAFFER' as a mark - on Targa nibs, for instance.

 

The word on the watch is not in caps, of course.......but then caps would not have looked as elegant on a watch face.