Permanence?

[mbrossar]

Does anyone know how permanent plain old ballpoint pens are? The reason I ask is, Im considering a fountain pen for my wife for Christmas. Shes taken a liking to my M205. Shes a physician assistant and would likely use it to write prescriptions among other things. Given the liabilities around prescription abuse, Im thinking shed want a fairly permanent ink. Perhaps Im being overly paranoid on her behalf. But then I started wondering how permanent the ballpoint pens shes already using are.

 

Ive thought of setting her up with one of Noodlers bullet proof inks, but Ive found them to be very wet. I suspect she will be happier with a drier ink. Are there any dry permanent inks out there? Are ballpoint pens only as permanent as other standard fountain pen inks anyway? Any physicians out there who use fountain pens to write prescriptions? If so, do you look for an ink with a certain permanence or do you just pick your favorite ink?

 

I appreciate your advice.

Edited December 6, 2010 by mbrossar

[Yoda4561]

Does anyone know how permanent plain old ballpoint pens are? The reason I ask is, I’m considering a fountain pen for my wife for Christmas. She’s taken a liking to my M205. She’s a physician assistant and would likely use it to write prescriptions among other things. Given the liabilities around prescription abuse, I’m thinking she’d want a fairly permanent ink. Perhaps I’m being overly paranoid on her behalf. But then I started wondering how permanent the ballpoint pens she’s already using are.

 

I’ve thought of setting her up with one of Noodler’s bullet proof inks, but I’ve found them to be very wet. I suspect she will be happier with a drier ink. Are there any dry permanent inks out there? Are ballpoint pens only as permanent as other standard fountain pen inks anyway? Any physicians out there who use fountain pens to write prescriptions? If so, do you look for an ink with a certain permanence or do you just pick your favorite ink?

 

I appreciate your advice.

 

 

Ballpoints are more water resistant in general (with the exception of the noodler's bulletproofs and platinum/sailor carbon inks) But are easily removed with alcohol or other strong solvents. There are some noodler's inks that contain a bulletproof component that write fairly dry, such as the new Black Swan in Australian roses ink. Somewhat ironically, you can also increase the "dryness" of many of the bulletproofs by watering them down up to 50/50 water and ink without any ill effect.

[mbrossar]

So, if a patient really wanted to alter a prescription, they could just as easily (or nearly as easily) do it if it was written with a ballpoint pen versus a fountain pen using any standard fountain pen ink, correct?

[wallylynn]

It depends on your definition of permanent and definition of ballpoint. In general, ballpoints are not lightfast, and wash away with alcohol or acetone. They are usually water resistant.

 

There are some gel pens that are said to be very tenacious. I think they're the ones with the orange goop instead of clear goop (but maybe I have it backwards).

 

And there's the Uniball SuperInk line which also claims to be not removable (micro-pigment?) Doesn't look like a gel pen but writes smoothly like one.

 

And there's FP ink like the iron-gall Blue-Blacks. Very water resistant, decently lightfast and solvent resistant. But can be bleached. I like using my Lamy Blue-Black, my daily ink.

 

Anyways, I think if the prescription is written with an odd colored ink even if washable, I think it'll be hard enough to alter while leaving the signature intact.

[Sandy1]

Hello,

 

There is a standard, ISO 12757-2, so one should seek-out compliant inks.

 

As I do not have the need for BP inks of that nature, I am afraid that I cannot advise on sourcing. I should imagine that major brands, e.g. Pelikan, Parker, Sheaffer, would have some compliant product/s. And those compliant products are to be marked as specified by the Standard.

 

Cheers!

Sandy1

 

ISO

12757-2

First edition

1998-05-01

Ball point pens and refills —

Part 2:

Documentary use (DOC)

Stylos à pointe bille et recharges —

Partie 2: Utilisation documentaire (DOC)

© ISO ISO 12757-2:1998(E)

iii

Introduction

This part of ISO 12757 is applicable to ball point pens for documentary use.

Part 1 of ISO 12757 is applicable to ball point pens for general use.

For documentary use, some requirements, in addition to those for general

use, are necessary

a) to assure the legibility of lettering, and for the handling and storage of documents during long periods of time

(these requirements are often discussed with the archivist).

An example of documentary use is the preparation of documents that are

required as evidence.

Furthermore, pens which meet the requirements for documentary use

produce lines which are more resistant to modification (e.g. attempts to

falsify a document) than those for general use.

1

Ball point pens and refills —

Part 2:

Documentary use (DOC)

1 Scope

This part of ISO 12757 establishes minimum quality requirements for ball point pens (refillable or non-refillable) and

refills for documentary use.

Basic requirements for ball point pens for general use are given in ISO 12757-1.

2 Normative references

The following standards contain provisions which, through reference in this text, constitute provisions of this part of

ISO 12757. At the time of publication, the editions indicated were valid. All standards are subject to revision, and

parties to agreements based on this part of ISO 12757 are encouraged to investigate the possibility of applying the

most recent editions of the standards indicated below. Members of IEC and ISO maintain registers of currently valid

International Standards.

ISO 105-A02:1993, Textiles — Tests for colour fastness — Part A02: Grey scale for assessing change in colour.

ISO 105-B02:1994, Textiles — Tests for colour fastness — Part B02: Colour fastness to artificial light: Xenon arc

fading lamp test.

ISO 12756:1998, Drawing and writing instruments — Ball point pens and roller ball pens — Vocabulary.

ISO 12757-1:1998, Ball point pens and refills — Part 1: General use.

3 Definitions

For the purposes of this part of ISO 12757, the definitions given in ISO 12756 apply.

4 Requirements

4.1 General requirements

See the general requirements given in ISO 12757-1:1998 (4.1 to 4.3.4 and 4.3.7).

4.2 Erasure resistance

The surface of the testing paper shall show clear evidence of damage before the line is rendered invisible when

tested as specified in 6.2.1.

4.3 Ethanol resistance

The line shall remain visible when tested as specified in 6.2.2.

ISO 12757-2:1998(E) © ISO

2

4.4 Hydrochloric acid resistance

The line shall remain visible when tested as specified in 6.2.3.

4.5 Ammonium hydroxide resistance

The line shall remain visible when tested as specified in 6.2.4.

4.6 Bleaching resistance

The line shall remain visible when tested as specified in 6.2.5.

4.7 Water resistance

The line shall remain visible when tested as specified in 6.2.6.

4.8 Light resistance

The line shall remain visible when tested as specified in 6.2.7.

5 Test equipment, accessories and solutions

5.1 Test equipment and accessories

See ISO 12757-1.

5.2 Test solutions

5.2.1 Ethanol solution, 50 % aqueous solution (volume fraction).

5.2.2 Hydrochloric acid solution, 10 % aqueous solution (mass fraction).

5.2.3 Ammonium hydroxide solution, 10 % aqueous solution (mass fraction).

5.2.4 Bleaching solution, 3 % freshly made aqueous solution of chloramin T1) (mass fraction).

6 Testing

6.1 General test

6.1.1 Sampling

See ISO 12757-1:1998, 6.1.

____________

1) Standard designation: N-chloro-p-toluene sulfonamide sodium salt.

1) IUPAC designation: N-chloro-4-methyl-benzene sulfonamide sodium salt.

© ISO ISO 12757-2:1998(E)

3

6.1.2 Climatic test conditions

See ISO 12757-1:1998, 6.2.

6.1.3 General test procedure

See ISO 12757-1:1998, 6.3.

6.2 Additional tests

6.2.1 Erasure resistance test

Keep a fresh machine-written test piece approximately 5 cm long from the sheet provided in 6.1.3 under the climatic

conditions specified in 6.1.2. for 10 min (to allow to dry), then erase a portion of line with the eraser specified in

ISO 12757-1:1998, 5.3. Examine the surface of the erased section of the paper for compliance with 4.2.

6.2.2 Ethanol resistance test

Keep a machine-written test piece approximately 5 cm long from the sheet provided in 6.1.3 under the climatic

conditions specified in 6.1.2 for 1 h (to allow to dry), then immerse in the ethanol solution specified in 5.2 for 10 min.

Remove and allow to air dry. Examine the written line of the test piece for compliance with 4.3.

6.2.3 Hydrochloric acid resistance test

Keep a machine-written test piece approximately 5 cm long from the sheet provided in 6.1.3 under the climatic

conditions specified in 6.1.2 for 1 h (to allow to dry), then immerse in the hydrochloric acid solution specified in 5.3

for 24 h. Remove and immerse in distilled water or de-ionized water for 10 min and allow to air dry. Examine the

written line of the test piece for compliance with 4.4.

6.2.4 Ammonium hydroxide resistance test

Keep a machine-written test piece approximately 5 cm long from the sheet provided in 6.1.3 under the climatic

conditions specified in 6.1.2 for 1 h (to allow to dry), then immerse in the ammonium hydroxide solution specified in

5.4 for 24 h. Remove and immerse in distilled water or de-ionized water for 10 min and allow to air dry. Examine the

written line of the test piece for compliance with 4.5.

6.2.5 Bleaching resistance test

Keep a machine-written test piece approximately 5 cm long from the sheet provided in 6.1.3 under the climatic

conditions specified in 6.1.2 for 10 min (to allow to dry), then immerse in the bleaching solution specified in 5.5 for

5 min. Remove and immerse in distilled water or de-ionized water for 10 min and allow to air dry. Examine the

written line of the test piece for compliance with 4.6.

6.2.6 Water resistance test

Keep a machine-written test piece approximately 5 cm long from the sheet provided in 6.1.3 under the climatic

conditions specified in 6.1.2 for 2 h (to allow to dry), then immerse in distilled water or de-ionized water for 24 h.

Remove and allow to air dry. Examine the written line of the test piece for compliance with 4.7.

ISO 12757-2:1998(E) © ISO

4

6.2.7 Light resistance test

Expose a machine-written test piece approximately 5 cm long from the sheet provided in 6.1.3 to the light source of

the apparatus specified in ISO 12757-1:1998, 5.5, together with the blue wool references specified in ISO 105-B02

until the contrast between the unexposed and the exposed blue wool reference 5 becomes equal to grey scale

grade 4 specified in ISO 105-A02. Examine the written line of the test piece for compliance with 4.8.

7 Designation and marking

7.1 Designation

The designation of a ball point pen or refill shall comprise, in the given order, the following elements:

a) the description block (e.g. "ball point pen" or "ball point refill");

the number of this part of ISO 12757 (i.e. ISO 12757-2);

c) the type classification code for refills (see 4.2 of ISO 12757-1:1998);

d) the tip classification code (EF, F, M or B; see table 1 of ISO 12757-1:1998); and

e) an additional indicator for documentary use (DOC).

EXAMPLES

A disposable ball point pen complying with the requirements of this part of ISO 12757, with a medium sized tip (M),

shall be designated as follows:

Ball point pen ISO 12757-2 M DOC

A ball point refill complying with the requirements of this part of ISO 12757, type B, with a broad sized tip (shall

be designated as follows:

Ball point refill ISO 12757-2 B B DOC

7.2 Marking

For identification, disposable ball point pens or refills shall be marked as follows:

a) the name of the manufacturer, supplier or trademark;

the designation in accordance with 7.1 [except 7.1 a), which is optional]; and

c) the date of manufacture (year/month, in full or coded) or the batch number.

8 Test report

The test report shall include the following information:

a) reference to this part of ISO 12757;

the date and place of test;

c) precise identification of the samples (see 7.2);

© ISO ISO 12757-2:1998(E)

5

d) identification of the following variable or optional requirements:

— test atmosphere (see 6.2 of ISO 12757-1:1998),

— writing angle and writing pitch (see 5.1 of ISO 12757-1:1998),

— reproducibility apparatus (see 5.4 of ISO 12757-1:1998), and

— light test apparatus (see 5.5 of ISO 12757-1:1998);

e) the results in accordance with this part of ISO 12757, as well as a confirmation of permitted application for

documentary use;

f) any deviations from the specified procedures (see clauses 5 and 6); and

g) the identification and signature of the tester.

Edited December 7, 2010 by Sandy1

[dcwaites]

Points arising --

 

1) There are a number of permanent inks that are reasonably dry, including the Sailor pigmented inks (Kiwaguro (Black) and Seiboku (Blue)) as well as the iron gall based inks by Lamy and Mont Blanc.

 

2) The standard quoted by Sandy1 is supposed to be for Ball Points (I have one, a Stabilo 'Cult Docusafe) but De Atramantis sell a rather expensive FP ink called Permanent Ink that they say conforms to this standard.

 

3) I understand that Noodler's Black is a well-behaved permanent, bulletproof ink that behaves well on poor paper.

 

4) The point with inks for prescriptions is not that they should be unalterable, but that they should show that someone has been attempting to change the prescription.

The point for inks for records is that, under normal conditions, they should not fade, no matter what the paper used and should be reasonably waterproof once they have dried.

[Lloyd]

Gosh Sandy, I hope you didn't just write all that down from memory!

[Scrawler]

So, if a patient really wanted to alter a prescription, they could just as easily (or nearly as easily) do it if it was written with a ballpoint pen versus a fountain pen using any standard fountain pen ink, correct?

Not if the ink was a slightly unusual color.

[Sandy1]

Gosh Sandy, I hope you didn't just write all that down from memory!

 

I do apoligise for the glaring error in punctuation - my memory isn't what it used to be, or perhaps I braided my hair too tight again.

[welch]

Get her Asa-gao, because it is a wonderful ink. Don't worry.

 

- any ballpoint, except an "eraser-mate", is hard to erase

 

- in New York State, at least, there are special prescription pads for any medication that can be abused. There are special rules that a pharmacy follows for "controlled substances", including tranquilizers and drugs you don;t usually associate with junkies on the street. It's pretty hard for an addict to change a prescription for penicillin to one for morphine.

 

- Some of the special pads make carbon copies, so she might still want a cheap BIC once in a while

 

- I just got a prescription written by fountain pen. (Good doc!)

[Mille]

There is very much talk about fraud secure inks in this forum, but very little about the security of the paper to use.

[mstone]

2) The standard quoted by Sandy1 is supposed to be for Ball Points (I have one, a Stabilo 'Cult Docusafe) but De Atramantis sell a rather expensive FP ink called Permanent Ink that they say conforms to this standard.

I'd be curious to see the test report, because I don't see that a fountain pen ink can conform to the standard. (The marking requirements are not optional, and not defined for ink.) The de atramentis page claims that it can withstand the test requirements, but isn't clear that it is actually tested and certified to do so. Looking at the requirements, I think that Noodler's Black (among others, based on test results available on this forum) could meet the requirements without any trouble, but also probably couldn't get certified because they aren't ball points. To some degree I think the discussion is cultural. (In my experience U.S. consumers care far less--if at all--about ISO standards, while they are very significant in other cultures.)

[Schuttwegraeumer]

I have tested the 39 Schneider GELION in black today.

This Refill is normed: ISO 27668-2.

 

After reading this thread i testet it with bleach.

But the black Gel-ink is near to complet removable with bleach.

Is in the ISO 27688-2 norm no part with bleach like in the 12757-2?

 

(The Schneider 755 Viscoglide pased this test perfectly, the non-documentproof red color too)

[Morphling27]

Nevermind

Edited March 9, 2015 by Morphling27

[JimCouch]

So, if a patient really wanted to alter a prescription, they could just as easily (or nearly as easily) do it if it was written with a ballpoint pen versus a fountain pen using any standard fountain pen ink, correct?

Most prescription fraud is not in the form of altered prescriptions, but ones written from scratch. If they have the signature it is very easy scan and copy the form and alter the rest of it. The ink really does not matter. Waterproof is only really important so the document remains readable if it gets damp/wet.

[SeeksAdvice]

Hmm... I thought that I responded to this, but obviously I did not.

 

As a prosecutor, I have seen an increase in check fraud, i.e. "washing" and more than my share of prescription fraud. Usually the prescription fraud relates to *adding* stuff that isn't there originally, or to stealing an Rx pad.

 

Don't laugh, people actually do wash checks or portions of checks. You would be amazed at how poorly toner stands up to certain things. Organic solvents can make quick work of many oil based inks. Isopropyl alcohol can also remove some alcohol based "permanent" markers. Then, there is also the digital option, where with appropriate software, you can just simply remove what you don't want and reprint.

 

I am going to go out on a limb with this one.

 

Choose an ink that's hard to duplicate in color, etc. Anybody can find a Bic Stic, or a Pilot rollerball, etc. It's always amusing to see somebody try to pass a prescription in two different colors of ink, and then they wonder why they wind up on my desk...

 

Choose something that's fairly hard to remove from the page. Some thoughts on inks that aren't black, or hard to distinguish from black that I've tried:

Sailor - Sei-Boku "nano" pigmented ink. Has a shading effect. Once dry is basically 100% waterproof. Not sure how it handles solvents, etc. Have not seen a BP/RB that's not loaded with it that matches the color.

Noodler's - Bad Green Gator. It feathers, it bleeds, it's pug-ugly, but it dries *fast* and doesn't go anywhere, even when bleached. Perhaps there is some utility in this area for an ink that penetrates through to the back of the page? Good luck matching it without having a bottle of it. One of my favorite check writing/banking inks.

Noodler's - Kung Te Cheng. One of the more durable blue Noodler's inks I've tried. You'd basically have to destroy the paper to get it off.

Noodler's - Bad Blue Heron / Bad Belted Kingfisher. These release some dye when exposed to water, which makes them somewhat tamper attempt evident. Personally, I'm not big on the "halo" effect in response to water. Also, may leave a blackish residue behind.

Noodler's - Upper Ganges Blue. Lighter blue that may separate out a turquoise component along with a pinkish component. One of the few "bulletproof" inks I've tried that would shade. Can take it or leave it.

Noodler's - Polar Blue. Exceedingly waterproof on the page. I don't like the in pen behavior, as it stained one pen pink. Based on my experience, I think it may still be here until the paper rots into the ground.

Noodler's - El Lawrence. Yes, it does look like used motor oil. However, it's pretty well behaved, and a color that I can't imagine being easy to find in BP's or RB's. If I recall correctly, it releases some dye in response to water.

Noodler's - Manjiro Nakahama Whaleman's Sepia. Run away, run far away, unless you want to tinker with the ink. Interesting concept, and a different color. However, after trying to get it to work well with a Sailor and two Pelikan's, I'm at the end of my patience for the ink. For usability, I much prefer El Lawrence to this. Due to how this ink works, this one may show more attempts to mess with it on the page.

Noodler's - Empire Red. The Empire strikes out with this one. Ugly, faded, chalky red. However, it's not going anywhere once on the page. Has a yellow fluorescence in the bottle.

Noodler's - Luxury Blue. I know that Amber will hate me for this, but I couldn't get past the difference of the color in the bottle versus on the page. Will release some lighter blue dye on contact with water.

Noodler's - Fox Red. Will release some orangish dye when exposed to water. Not as resistant to bleach as Empire Red.

Noodler's - Hunter (old edition). Will release some "fluorescent lime green" dye when exposed to water. Not as resistant to stuff as Bad Green Gator.

Montblanc Permanent Blue. Have been very disappointed with this ink. Have found it exceedingly difficult to clean from pens (clogged a Speedball, still soaking a Phileas in pen flush after previously overnighting it). Better durability on the page for me than Permanent Black. I bought both expecting them to outperform some of my Noodler's inks, and they haven't.

Edited March 12, 2015 by SeeksAdvice

[doodlebug]

I agree with Seeks Advice.

 

I had a friend whose checks were stolen in the mail and washed. It got me thinking about using a permanent ink.

 

I used to use Noodler's black for check writing but now I use one of Noodler's singular ink colors advertised to be bulletproof, exclusive for a well known pen seller. I chose the ink because of its unique color with the idea that no one could add anything to checks and the check could not be washed. Also, I write my checks in cursive and the loops go above and below the line.

 

Check fraud can happen to anyone. A while back, I mailed a refund of unused retainer check to a client. The check was never cashed and I was notified by the prosecutor's office that my check had been found scanned into the computer of a defendant accused of mail theft. Apparently, they could not figure out how to wash the check.

 

I have used Kung Te Cheng but my dedicated Noodler's pen is kind of wet and it writes out nearly black. Apart from that, I really liked it and I agree; it seems indestructible. I have used Luxury Blue and find it a bit chalky in appearance and it feathers on cheap paper.

 

I like RK Salix as being waterproof but I cannot vouch for resistance to chemicals so use it for general writing.

 

[amberleadavis]

 

Noodler's - Luxury Blue. I know that Amber will hate me for this, but I couldn't get past the difference of the color in the bottle versus on the page. Will release some lighter blue dye on contact with water.

 

 

 

Nope, I adore you.

 

But, now days, I'm using Dromgoole's Blue Steel instead of Luxury Blue. I don't sign enough contracts to worry about it.

[SeeksAdvice]

I will have to snag a bottle of Blue Steel at some point. I refuse to get a bottle the Texas Pecan though, consider the bottle to be vulgar.

Guess though, as an attorney, I probably should use Legal Lapis?

[Algester]

old topic is old but rumors has it that Sailor will soon release it's Storia inks in Japan they are rumored to be the same stuff as their Seiboku and Kiwaguro meaning they are nano particulate inks but in more vibrant colors comes in a frosted glass bottle but is only 20ml ish

http://www.sailor.co.jp/lineup/fountainpen-others/13-1502

Edited March 14, 2015 by Algester