Question Of Inks For Pointed Pen Copperplate

[TheSherminator]

I am here at the store (writing this on my phone, so excuse spelling, etc.), and there is this Manuscript calligraphy fountain pen ink. My question is, is this ink too runny for use with a pointed pen in copperplate or ornamental?

 

I have never used this ink, and I don't want to get it if it's too runny for this purpose (as many fountain pen inks are). This is a problem I have had and still do have: too runny, feathering ink. Even my Higgin's Eternal and my basic black Sumi have the problem of bleeding into the paper and feathering, especially when doing copperplate, since it is so heavily shaded and a slow process, laying lots of ink down. I have yet to try this ink, but if it is no good, I would rather try another ink, as there are several here.

 

The ones here I haven't tried yet are: Calli, Bombay, Manuscript, Dr. Ph Martin's, Higgin's Waterproof and Non-Waterproof Drawing Ink and Fountain Pen India and Black Magic, and finally a plain bottle labelled "Daler...Rowney FW Acrylic Artist's Ink.

 

Out of these, which would be the best at not feathering and not being all runny?

 

Thanks, BDR.

[bsunde]

Sounds like your problem may be your paper rather than your ink. What kind are you using?

 

To some extent you can reduce bleeding/feathering/running by adding a tiny bit of gum arabic to Higgins and such.

 

You might also consider trying an iron-gall ink, like Old World ink. It is very fluid, tends not to bleed, and it makes very thin hairlines.

Edited October 7, 2010 by bsunde

[Crewel]

I agree with bsunde. The problem appears to be the paper rather than the ink. Just to give you an idea, I had bought 2 tablets of practice paper for Copperplate, and to me, they seemed to be a waste of money - not much of a waste really since they were about $4-5 each. However, they tended to feather alot with Sumi ink I was using at the time. I've tried the same combo of dip pen and ink on better paper like Rhodia and Clairefontaine, and I did not experience excessive feathering or bleedthrough.

 

Before buying that manuscript ink, I suggest you change your paper and see how that works out for you.

[bigstick]

For dip pens, I highly recommend the Higgins Eternal. Satisfactory in every way.

[caliken]

Even my Higgin's Eternal and my basic black Sumi have the problem of bleeding into the paper and feathering, especially when doing copperplate, since it is so heavily shaded and a slow process, laying lots of ink down.

 

I agree with all the comments made. I use Higgins Eternal for all of my dip nib calligraphy and have never had any problem.

 

Your difficulty lies almost certainly with your paper. Any good, smooth matt (not glossy) copier paper should be fine. My current favourite is IQ Mondi Selection Smooth which is a substantial 100gsm and is available by the A4 Ream (500 sheets).

I get it direct from Viking. With a loaded flex nib, I can write a heavily shaded stroke which sits on the paper as a blob, and doesn't bleed or feather in the slightest.

Here it is, for anyone interested.

If I were you, I'd stick with Higgins Eternal which is a wonderful ink, and look to your paper choice for the answer to your problem.

 

caliken

Edited October 7, 2010 by caliken

[AD356]

I have to disagree a bit with the above comments. Sure a better paper will help but some Fountain Pen ink is designed to be more viscous. Right out of the bottle I had to thicken up Private Reserve Ink slightly. With Noodler Baystate Concord (an outstanding purple). It feathered and bleed all over the place no mattered what I used nib or paper I used. It was simply too thin of an ink. I am sure on a fountain pen it would have worked great, but dip pens can send alot more ink to the paper. I had to add alot of thickening agent to it. Some Sumi-e Inks I use I have to thin out. If you don't want to mess with it then I would stay away from fountain pen ink, unless you know someone that says it works well for Dip pens.

[Thinkpad]

I have to disagree a bit with the above comments. Sure a better paper will help but some Fountain Pen ink is designed to be more viscous. Right out of the bottle I had to thicken up Private Reserve Ink slightly. With Noodler Baystate Concord (an outstanding purple). It feathered and bleed all over the place no mattered what I used nib or paper I used. It was simply too thin of an ink. I am sure on a fountain pen it would have worked great, but dip pens can send alot more ink to the paper. I had to add alot of thickening agent to it. Some Sumi-e Inks I use I have to thin out. If you don't want to mess with it then I would stay away from fountain pen ink, unless you know someone that says it works well for Dip pens.

 

Well, your paper comes first. If your paper is no good, then it doesn't really matter how good your ink is.

I use laser/copier paper from Clairefontaine to practice and I've used it with numerous inks (calligraphy inks and fp inks), as well as with dip pens and fountain pens, and I can tell you it never "feathers" or "bleeds".

I never even had to bother with adding thinkening agent to any of the inks that I have.

Even their thin 60 grams paper does not show this problem with a dip pen.

 

But then again, I use (various) calligraphy inks for my dip pens and leave fountain pen ink for my fountain pens.

[Chevalier]

@caliken

 

Do you use the Higgins Eternal for pointed pen styles too? I tried Higgins before (but not Eternal) and it was great for broad pens, but not pointed ones (like most inks). It's ok to use it for practice, but the hairlines seemed too bold for me. Ziller and McCaffery did a much better job (same nib, same paper).

[caliken]

Do you use the Higgins Eternal for pointed pen styles too? I tried Higgins before (but not Eternal) and it was great for broad pens, but not pointed ones (like most inks). It's ok to use it for practice, but the hairlines seemed too bold for me. Ziller and McCaffery did a much better job (same nib, same paper).

 

I must try Ziller and McCaffery, sometime. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

I use Higgins Eternal for most of my pointed pen work as it seems fine, to me.

 

A lot of my work is reproduced and extremely fine hairlines can cause problems, especially if there is a size reduction.

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/Threestyles601.jpg

Edited October 11, 2010 by caliken

[Chevalier]

I think I found the perfect ink for reproduction work, the problem is that it is hard to get it. It's the traditional Persian calligraphy ink and getting stuff from Iran isn't easy nowadays. I talked with Hamid Reza Ebrahimi about this just a few weeks ago, trying to get an idea of the recipe. Too bad that he seems to have problems to get his mails again (or he might be just busy). I really want to know the difference between Japanese/Chinese ink and the Persian one.

 

Well, like I said in the other thread, I'll give Higgins Eternal a shot now.

[TheSherminator]

Sorry I left this and never came back to check the responses.

Thanks for all the responses. I would like to get a paper that works, but I have honestly tried ALL kinds of paper, and much to the same result. Only a very certain kind of computer paper (don't know what kind, grabbed it out of a large stack of mixed brands), the paper of a very specific cheap ruled spiral notebook (which is a pain in the butt) from Walmart, and some imitation parchment I have are the only ones that do not bleed and feather, and on one of those it DOES feather, just very, very lightly.

 

It is frustrating, as I have tried many papers, and therefore I turned to the ink.

 

I would like to try the Clairefontaine but I have no local place to get it (no art supply stores carry it here. All there is I would like to use is the blank sheets (wouldn't want ruled), but they only come in 5o packs, for like $4-6, which would mean having to pay for many of these packs plus their shipment every month, because I dont know about you scriptors that are serious in practicing the art, but I go through many sheets of simple practice, as well as work, every week.

 

I wish there was something else besides ONLY clairfontaine, and which was more available and cheaper.

 

I would like to try some Iron Gall.

 

The thing is, I don't understand why feathering is so dang common....for instance, many of the past masters, such as Madarasz would sometimes even water down their inks.... I know it was the great stick ink, but watering it down couldn't have made it any less susceptible to feathering as common inks, and the same goes for the paper. So, why am I constantly encountered with feathering? It is getting old.

 

The other main problem is, sometimes I don't have a choice of the paper....someone will give me something to fill in with script, and I don't really have a choice. Is there no ink that could do the job without this problem?

 

Anyways, thanks for the replies, and apologies for dredging this back up to the current articles.

 

BDR.

[Chevalier]

The pen might be a factor of this problem too. There is a chance that the pen is damaging the fibre structure, making the bleeding/feathering possible. It is, however, never the pen alone. I am watering down many inks too, to optimize flow characteristics or simply to save ink when practicing. Some inks need some additional binding agent then, others don't.

 

One thing, that's important ... never use special papers for practice, it's simply not necessary. A standard copy paper should have sufficient sizing for practice, providing no or only slight feathering. I never thought it's so difficult to choose the right pen, paper and ink combination. I usually have to try 1-3 nibs and inks, to find out what works. You can usually tell what should work, after some practice. There are some papers that might surprise you, not acting as expected, but only in very few cases.

 

There's another thing I just remembered, your writing underground might be too hard, try placing some sheets of paper or maybe smooth leather below your paper.

Edited October 28, 2010 by Chevalier

[Randal6393]

Hi, Sherminator,

 

Maybe an online supply house could help you. John Neal Bookseller is the one that I consistently use for good quality inks and paper. The best papers he has for penwork (practice grade) are the Pentalic Paper for Pens pad and the JNB Practice Pad. Both should be free of feathering, bleedthrough, etc. And the cost is not that great.

 

As for ink for pointed pen work, can't go wrong with Ken Fraser's workhorse ink -- Higgins Eternal. I get better results with McCaffery Penman's Iron Gall Ink. But the Higgins works well, too. JNB carries Walnut Ink, Ziller Ink, and three brands of sumi ink. All are recommended by penmen for their good results.

 

Since you are having consistent trouble with feathering when working on pointed pen, I wonder how you fill your pen. Are you using a brush? An eyedropper? Or dipping? If you load up too much ink into your nib, you may get feathering and bleeding. There is a great video -- about 19 minutes long -- here in the Penmanship forum. It's about Hermann Zapf and shows him at work. You can see how he fills a pen (Broad-edged but pointed works much the same) and uses his dip pen to write. A very valuable lesson.

 

Am a satisfied customer of John Neal Bookseller, have shopped there for years. Never purchased a product that I didn't like.

 

Best of luck to you, hope our advice helps you to solve your problems. Enjoy,

[galem]

I find most any ink can be brought to the right consistency by adding the appropriate number of drops of gum arabic (I prefer the liquid type.) Currently I am enjoying Moon Palace Sumi ink in the green bottle. It is so right on, it needs no gum arabic at all. Gouache can also be diluted with distilled water to make the right consistency. Just be sure to add the gum arabic or water a drop or two at a time, because you can very easily thin it too much. I agree that the PAPER is a huge issue. My favorite for practice is First Choice Color Print 32 bond paper. It is very smooth, heavy, and does not feather! Borden and Riley Boris Layout Paper for Markers is also good for practice. It is sheer enough to see your grid or sample letters through it and also doesn't feather or bleed. For final projects, I use more expensive paper. Enjoy your calligraphy!

Edited October 20, 2017 by galem