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On "Vintage"


Guest Denis Richard

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Guest Denis Richard

We had a little discussion in the Chat Room, and started to debate on the correct use of the term vintage. There is a debate on RS about that too.

 

In direction to those who believe that the term is not adequate as used commonly in the pen community I would like to submit some thoughts.

 

If one really wants to be a purist, vintage should apply only to wine, and only to designate the production year. That actually is already wrong, as vintage comes from the French "vendange", which is the act of picking grappes to make them into wine. It does not refer, for example, to the year of bottling, or release for sale.

 

But the real issue is to mistakenly fight the adjective because of the noun. Defintions are given as follow by the webster :

 

Vintage (NOUN)

1 a (1) : a season's yield of grapes or wine from a vineyard (2) : WINE; especially : a usually superior wine all or most of which comes from a single year b : a collection of contemporaneous and similar persons or things : CROP

2 : the act or time of harvesting grapes or making wine

3 a : a period of origin or manufacture <a piano of 1845 vintage> b : length of existence : AGE

 

Even defintion 3 does not seems very adequate to me, when speaking of pens.

 

Vintage (ADJECTIVE)

1 of wine : of, relating to, or produced in a particular vintage

2 : of old, recognized, and enduring interest, importance, or quality : CLASSIC

3 a : dating from the past : OLD b : OUTMODED, OLD-FASHIONED

4 : of the best and most characteristic -- used with a proper noun <vintage Shaw: a wise and winning comedy -- Time>

 

As we are not speaking of wine, we have to discard 1. Defintion 2 fits like a glove (notice the OR). 3 seems pretty good to me also. And if you have a preference for old nibs, 4 is your pick.

 

In conclusion, while it would not make sense to speak of a "pen of vintage" (such as you would speak of a "wine of 1940 vintage"), there is no doubt in my mind that its use as an adjective is more than correct. And for the few who would be tempted to think that there is some kind of snobism in using it, be reassured that it is not such a big and hard word, and that the "show off" effect is really limited to middle or primary schools. :P

Edited by Denis Richard
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We had a little discussion in the Chat Room, and started to debate on the correct use of the term vintage. There is a debate on RS about that too.

 

In conclusion, while it would not make sense to speak of a "pen of vintage" (such as you would speak of a "wine of 1940 vintage"), there is no doubt in my mind that its use as an adjective is more than correct. And for the few who would be tempted to think that there is some kind of snobism in using it, be reassured that it is not such a big and hard word, and that the "show off" effect is really limited to middle or primary schools. :P

 

Speaking of a pen of vintage is a rather twisted form of English but how many times have you heard of a 48 Parker Vacumatic or a 1950's Balance. Even the near modern 1980s Pelikan M800 or early 70's MontBlanc? So it makes does make sense to speak of a pen by the year or decade. As many pens have changed over time and using the catchall vintage really just gives the appearance of something valuable but really is a phatic word in most discussions. There is no snobism in using it rather it's an advertising word that ranks up there with 'all new and improved' in order to sell an item. All sizzle and no steak so to speak.

 

Add to that when is a pen modern and a pen vintage? So this weak little word adds nothing but the outer sheen of quality since vintage pens are "better" than modern

 

 

 

:lol: :lol:

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I don't think it's a matter of using the word "vintage" to add value or snobbery when referring to a pen. There are many times that you want to specify if a pen is modern or older, especially in modern pens that have older counterparts, such as the Vanishing Point. It is also useful for example when someone would say "I really like vintage Waterman pens" It's possible to say "I really like pre- 1950 Waterman pens (or whatever year you might consider - that's another discussion), ut that supposes a greater knowldege of pens and pen companies.

 

When used to advertise a pen, I don't think the use of "vintage" in the description is an attempt to make it sound better. It's a description that's helpful.

 

Elaine

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When used to advertise a pen, I don't think the use of "vintage" in the description is an attempt to make it sound better. It's a description that's helpful.

 

Elaine

Nope there might not always be that use but if you replace vintage with old does it have the same feeling? :lol:

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Don't get me going on words used to advertise pens :angry:

 

"Rare" as in "Rare 1960s Shaeffer school pen"

"Collectable"

"Minty" - there must be a layer of Hell reserved for the person who invented that one.

 

I also object to anything younger than me being described as "vintage".

Ther are 10 types of people in the world; those who understand binary and those who don't

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Nope there might not always be that use but if you replace vintage with old does it have the same feeling? laugh.gif

 

 

Getting silly now :rolleyes: Forgetting dictionary definitions, I think old/new can be applied to modern/vintage pens. "I came home from the pen show with a new vintage pen, "I sold my old modern Vanishing Point to pay for it"

 

Elaine

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Nope there might not always be that use but if you replace vintage with old does it have the same feeling? laugh.gif

 

 

Getting silly now :rolleyes: Forgetting dictionary definitions, I think old/new can be applied to modern/vintage pens. "I came home from the pen show with a new vintage pen, "I sold my old modern Vanishing Point to pay for it"

 

Elaine

Not silly but truthful!

 

Words have power.

 

And do you really think someone would say old modern :lol: :lol:

Edited by Tytyvyllus
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Funny! I was just going through Pentrace and saw this, it's a direct quote:

 

T"his is pretty exciting for me....I just received a new vintage pen in the mail"

 

Hmm, not sure about the old modern though.

 

Elaine

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Funny! I was just going through Pentrace and saw this, it's a direct quote:

 

T"his is pretty exciting for me....I just received a new vintage pen in the mail"

 

Hmm, not sure about the old modern though.

 

Elaine

 

We could parse sentences all day but in the end a pen's a pen.

 

 

Kurt H

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How about "Retro" for pens of the 60's and 70's? I have 3 butt ugly Retro no-name pens with wonderful nibs. :P Then we could use art terms and get into Modern, Post-Modern, Contemporary.....

Never lie to your dog.

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I like the idea of a PoMo pen. It doesn't write very well and anything it does produce is complete nonsense. We need a Montblanc "Derrida". It would make a suitable statement of the value of Montblancs as pens.

Ther are 10 types of people in the world; those who understand binary and those who don't

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How about "Retro" for pens of the 60's and 70's? I have 3 butt ugly Retro no-name pens with wonderful nibs. :P Then we could use art terms and get into Modern, Post-Modern, Contemporary.....

Don't forget Art Deco, Mission, Art Nouveau, ... I'm sure there's more ;)

When there's nothing to lose and nothing to win

Ain't nothing like a brand new fountain pen

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2 : of old, recognized, and enduring interest, importance, or quality : CLASSIC

 

It does fit like a glove doesn't it?

 

We have to define what we consider old before we can assign a "vintage" label to something and in the antique and car world, you generally aren't considered old / vintage until you're at least 50 and become a classic item at 25.

 

When I refer to a pen as being vintage I think I am usually referring to pre 1950 models of some importance and quality. Besides those vintage gems, there is also some old junk out there that was never that good in the first place and hasn't gotten any better with age.

 

So with this, some pens will fall into the nether regions as pens like the Parker 51 were produced over a long span of time (1942-1970) or the Sheaffer Snorkel (1952-1959) but most will consider these vintage.

 

I have a little trouble with people over-using the terms "rare" and mis-using the term "mint". If you have only seen one example of 1 item it might be rare to you but not really rare and mint describes something that is still as perfect as it was when it was new.

 

Now... none of this should not be applied to people as I do know a few that are over 50 that I would never call "vintage" but do consider to be classic and since we are all unique, one of a kind models, we can consider each of ourselves rare but certainly not mint.

 

I myself have a few scrapes and dent's and don't start up in the morning like I used to.

Please visit http://members.shaw.ca/feynn/

Please direct repair inquiries to capitalpen@shaw.ca

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It's only a word, but then, words have been argued over, fought over, and differently understood for as long as we humans have been using them. Comedians have made careers over the (mis)use of language; for politicians, it's their stock in trade. (OK George- OFF THE SOAPBOX NOW!)

 

Going back to definitions two and three when used as an adjective,

 

2 : of old, recognized, and enduring interest, importance, or quality : CLASSIC

3 a : dating from the past : OLD b : OUTMODED, OLD-FASHIONED

 

I've understood "vintage" to refer to fountain pens dating from the time when any literate person would be likely to possess and use a fountain pen.

 

I recall that in the mid 1960's (I do not recall the exact year) when asking about a fountain pen for a desk set rather than the BP that was displayed and offered, the sales clerk, with a disbelieving and dumbfounded expression, said,

 

"You want an INK pen???!!! Do they make those anymore?"

 

So, to my mind, "vintage" refers to any pen that was in production in the mid 1960's or earlier.

 

I think of "modern" as referring to any pen introduced after that time, whether in current production or not.

 

That said, I'm sure there will be many who disagree.

George

 

Pelikan Convert and User

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nothing of value in my post here.

 

I once got into this discussion in a joking way and was accused of being pedantic. Truth is - I don't care. Call it what you want. I'll laugh at the "very rare black Waterman Phileas" descriptions in auctions along with the "very rare old-style Pelikan 200s" that a well-known seller often hawks on e-bay. I'll leave the rest up to ya'll.

 

I couldn't agree more with John though - I dislike the term minty. okay - i'm being nice. I hate it. Minty is a toothpaste, or a gum, or a mouthwash. Not a pen. But that's just one of those words that ticks me off not because of any belief that a hierarchy needs to be established WRT mint, vintage, modern. But because it sounds like something a 4 y.o. would have come up with. As irritating to me as the weather anchor who says "juicy" to describe an air mass.

KCat
Save animal lives - support your local animal shelter

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Venerable are letters, infinitely brave, forlorn, and lost. V. Woolf, Jacob's Room

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Guest Denis Richard

Car collectors use the term Classic, which is given as one of the synonyms for vintage. I'm not sure how it is define in that community, but it seems to me like tomorrow's classics are current production cars. It is the same with pens. Kurt, before you know it, all your pens will be vintage :D

 

Let's take a look at "vintage pens". I've got a few lemons in the past few years... Stratfords and the likes. I would not call them vintage. Those are old pieces of (Potty Mouth). I think we might be misunderstanding each other sometimes. When someone says that he prefer vintage pens, it does not mean that he will take anything old. In that sense, no, vintage and old are not the same for me. On the other hand, I also call my Duofold "old", and it was made in 1992. I think I could refer to it as an "old Duofold", or as "Duofold 1992 vintage", but I would not refer to it as a "vintage Duofold".

 

The bias is also that mostly the best of the "old" pens survived, while we get to see all current production pens, good and bad. I'm pretty much convinced that current manufacture, is globally of better quality, and mainly because the low end lines have disappeared. But some vintage pens just do not compare to new ones. And that is to take litterally : they just do not compare. It is not a matter of better or not imho. Some people prefer the feel or a vintage, others of a modern. I think that's all there is to it.

 

Denis... who is waiting for a new current production pen from Pam.

Edited by Denis Richard
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Denis... who is waiting for a new current production pen from Pam.

Oh, would that be a "Late Model" then? B)

Never lie to your dog.

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"very rare old-style Pelikan 200s" that a well-known seller often hawks on e-bay.

 

Is he related to the guy with the "genuine" Chinese Montblancs? :bonk:

Ther are 10 types of people in the world; those who understand binary and those who don't

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The bias is also that mostly the best of the "old" pens survived[/quote

 

I don't know about that. I see plenty of really crappy old pens.

Ther are 10 types of people in the world; those who understand binary and those who don't

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"very rare old-style Pelikan 200s" that a well-known seller often hawks on e-bay.

 

Is he related to the guy with the "genuine" Chinese Montblancs? :bonk:

She isn't to my knowledge. :) Her products are good and they're genuine. I just object to her tactics. These pens are hardly rare. And I wouldn't consider them "Vintage" but I believe she's referred to them that way.

 

In fact, Ednerd was kind enough to forward several auctions to me of these "rare" birds. :)

 

I gotta go make lunch.

KCat
Save animal lives - support your local animal shelter

My personal blog https://kcdockalscribbling.com

My nature blog https://kcbeachscribbles.com
Venerable are letters, infinitely brave, forlorn, and lost. V. Woolf, Jacob's Room

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