Suggestions for Sid's magic reblackening potion...

[antoniosz]

By the way, if you want to "freak out" with some extreme comments on this subject read the answers to a post from Roger W. in this thread at Lion&Pen.

 

Roger W. I am not refering to your posts but to the answers to it. You have made here elegant and polite statements of your position which shed light to the position of collectors in this discusison. The answers to your posts are simply going to scare away new people that are interested in the hobby. They will think that fountain pen collectors live on other planets To me this is b....bad.

 

By the way I hope to get some close up of the G-10 treated pen this weekend and post them.

 

AntoniosZ

 

(who has some pens that he will not ink but would not hesitate for a second to reblacken a badly discolored user if he knew how to do it inexpensively).

Edited September 17, 2005 by antoniosz

[RussA]

Ultimately, the collecting community needs a J. Paul Getty Trust to create a foundation/museum dedicated to the conservation and research of Fountain Pens.

Hey Dennis.

 

Do you think users might deserve some support as well... maybe Charlton Heston could help

[Roger W.]

Antonio;

 

You may find some of the comments at Lion and Pen to be scary, but some people find you reblackening pens equally scary.

 

People new to the hobby need to know there a serious concerns over reblacking. I think I've been very clear on this so I do not wish now to continue to beat this dead horse. Funny though, the horse has a lot of stamina and reblacking will be presented again without any warning to the valid concerns that this process legitamately raises. These potions should come with adequate disclosures which they do not have.

 

Roger W.

[Gerry]

Roger,

 

Sorry, can't agree with you. I'm quite sympathethic to Antonios's position, which I find eminently resonable.

 

Regards

 

Gerry

[antoniosz]

Roger,

 

It is not a dead horse - it is an open issue that requires discussion and data, not ideological reactions. I think that the concerns are real but exaggerated.

 

I have in my hands a reblackend pen by G-10 and a near "pristine" BHR pen. It is VERY EASY to distinguish them - all you need is a loupe.

The reblackening did not turn my worn pen into a pristine looking sample - but it did a great job hiding the brown look and to eliminate the dusty/rusty hand feeling of the pen.

 

The price of reblacking (by G-10) is more than $50. It is a cosmetic repair that is rather expensive for a user pen.

 

Collectors have very little to worry about by reblackening. On the other hand the hobby will loose if it remains among few "initiated" rather than opening to more people.

 

AZ

Edited September 17, 2005 by antoniosz

[Guest Denis Richard]

Antonio;

 

You may find some of the comments at Lion and Pen to be scary, but some people find you reblackening pens equally scary. 

 

People new to the hobby need to know there a serious concerns over reblacking.  I think I've been very clear on this so I do not wish now to continue to beat this dead horse.  Funny though, the horse has a lot of stamina and reblacking will be presented again without any warning to the valid concerns that this process legitamately raises.  These potions should come with adequate disclosures which they do not have.

 

Roger W.

I think the issue of a warning concerning reblackening is a little odd in that I do not hear about warnings about other restoration techniques. Unless you find a way to permanently attach a disclaimer to a pen, it will anyway go down to the trust between a buyer and a seller or the ability of collector to know their stuff and recognize a reblackened pen.

 

I also think the issue of physical risks for the pens is moot. I have no hard evidence that either G10 or Pensburry Manor Potion are 100% safe, but the physico-chemical properties fo hard rubber are not unknown to modern science and I personaly trust both Giovanni and Syd to not play the alchemists. They have been around, in the community for too long, and rendered too many services.

 

So, it all goes down to the collecting value aspect, in my opinion. My conclusion remains the same, that there is a need for more communication between users and collectors. The extremists on both sides will not be happy with it, and you will have to face bad looks from both the fringe of collectors that rely on fetishism and the idea that all pens and their history belongs to them, and of users who would throw a Parker Aztec in the botton of their bac;pack if they found one.

 

Could a pan association of users and collectors see the light ?

Edited September 18, 2005 by Denis Richard

[Roger W.]

Gerry, Antonio and Denis;

 

First Gerry, I don't think you get my point. Without someone like me popping up new people to the hobby would think reblacking perfectly safe and advisable. Not true. However, to clarify my position with Antonio, I agree that for users and user grade pens there is a legitimate rational for reblacking, though recognizing this I would never reblack a pen - just doesn't do anything for me (but I get the point of some people wanting shiny black pens - cool).

 

Denis, really got to disagree here. Neither of these folks is chemists, etc. (and neither am I for that matter). To hear the story of the potion developments - sounds pretty much like alchemy to me. I agree that Syd seems to have some science behind his but, I think it is far from being scientific. As far as being around a long time doesn't mean squat. There are several charlatans that have been around a long time too. However, in your last paragraph we come together again. There should be a middle ground. It's like a persons private and public positions. I would never reblack a pen. I think others should reblack pens (not excellent models with a slight cosmetic problem, but users - and I think we all generally know what this is) as long as they are aware of the pros and cons. This thread was on reblackening so I didn't touch on many of the other controversial restoration methods.

 

Roger W.

[antoniosz]

Roger W., I believe that Giovanni is an engineer (of course he can speak for himself). Does this count ?

 

On the other hand, I do understand your point. In fact, I went to Richard's website where it offers the service and I think he should indeed post a little more "discussion" about reblackening - a warning or something similar.

 

AZ

[RussA]

I can only speak for the Pen Potion #9, and this disclaimer has been on Pensbury's website as long as I can remember.

 

"The choice to restore any antique object should not be taken lightly. Some antique and vintage items including Fountain Pens may be of considerably higher value if left in their original, aged, with respectable "patina", condition. If you have any concern about whether the item you are considering restoring is going to suffer a loss in value by being refinished, do not restore that item. However, there are many wonderful daily writers that will never become the most prized among collectible, investment grade pens, yet they bring pleasure to their users. The outward appearance of these delightful instruments however may need a boost so they are more "presentable" in public and more pleasurable to use.

[Roger]

I have the feeling that if Roger W. had his way, there would be a public domain of collectable FPs such that if a person's pen fit the "collectable" criteria, then that person would be prevented from making alterations that would devalue the pen in the eyes of the collectors. I hope that I'm misreading you, Roger, because if that is correct, you have lost me completely!

 

Middle ground, Schmiddle ground, I do with my pens what I wish!

 

Not a vintage person, yet, which the spokespersons for the above mentality should be grateful. ^_^

[Guest Denis Richard]

Denis, really got to disagree here.  Neither of these folks is chemists, etc. (and neither am I for that matter).  To hear the story of the potion developments - sounds pretty much like alchemy to me.  I agree that Syd seems to have some science behind his but, I think it is far from being scientific.  As far as being around a long time doesn't mean squat.  There are several charlatans that have been around a long time too.  However, in your last paragraph we come together again.  There should be a middle ground.  It's like a persons private and public positions.  I would never reblack a pen.  I think others should reblack pens (not excellent models with a slight cosmetic problem, but users - and I think we all generally know what this is) as long as they are aware of the pros and cons.  This thread was on reblackening so I didn't touch on many of the other controversial restoration methods.

 

Roger W.

Hi Roger,

 

concerning disclaimers and other techniques, I was not refering just to this conversation, but in general. I have not heard collectors call for disclaimers for anything else than reblackening.

 

Science most of the time looks like alchemy ... actually, many alchemists had a state of mind very close to our modern ways... but I am digressing. You are right that being around for a long time is no guarantee, but it is my personal opinion that neither Syd and Gio are anywhere close to charlatans. Neither of them makes a living from the pen side of their life. I also don't have the feeling they are careless people.

 

I also observe that the polemic became very public (may be there was a polemic inside the closed collecting community) when Giovanni released his product. What happened when Syd made his potion public ? What happened while Daniel Kirchheimer was reblackening pens too ? Is there a personality issue ? Does the "Old Guard" feels more threatened by some people than others?

 

Is the collecting community having panic attacks because of the transition between a very close community, almost underground, keeping their treasures hidden from the pleb, and today's evolving landscape ?

 

I want to add that while you are trying to reach out to everyone and sounds like a rational person, Roger, there seems to be some very angry and extremist collectors whose message and style does not appeal to users/collectors. And I believe that their attitude is no stranger to the gap between both communities. In truth, their is only a continuum, from pure user to pure collector. But preaching god given truth, as is heard from those people, pushes everyone to choose sides that are only artificial.

 

Denis.

Edited September 18, 2005 by Denis Richard

[Roger W.]

Roger;

 

I do believe in ownership rights over the value of preserving things as they should be. That being said, I have to cringe that it also includes allowing the owner to be as stupid as he/she wants to be. Ultimately, all that we can do is educate people as to the best or highest degree of care that can be excercised and hope that these objects survive beyond their owners intentions (good or bad).

 

I do hope that those that see pens solely for their utilitarian purpose can appreciate the rational that a collector has. Maybe the user takes a pass on a pen that should be preserved in a collection. There are hundreds of pens available for use for every individual pen that should truly be preserved - so the collector is asking so little here.

 

On another board it was mentioned having enforcement for a code. I don't think enforcement will work and I frankly, don't believe in enforcement. Now why I have worked in regulated industries as the regulator and the regulatee for 16 years is just one of those crazy things!

 

I really hope that you don't mean that you do with your pens what you wish more that you do with them what a prudent, thinking, rational being would do with them.

 

Roger W.

[RussA]

But preaching god given truth, as is heard from those people, pushes everyone to choose sides that are only artificial.

 

Denis.

Here lies the crux of the whole debate. Extremism exists on both sides and exists in each collector to some degree. Sometimes, one certain issue is so debatable it tends to push aside all common ground that is normally shared. There is no “real” difference between a collector of pens and a user/collector. There is common sense in each to discern what pen should be set aside and not used or restored.

 

As a user of vintage pens, and collector (of user grade vintage pens), the idea that I require instruction as to the “error of my ways” is what creates some of the divide. People who collect vintage pens for use are not stupid, careless, uneducated collectors. Equal time is spent on the hobby but on a different focus. Some dividing topics have no solution, and this topic probably fits the bill best.

[Guest Denis Richard]

I do hope that those that see pens solely for their utilitarian purpose can appreciate the rational that a collector has.  Maybe the user takes a pass on a pen that should be preserved in a collection.  There are hundreds of pens available for use for every individual pen that should truly be preserved - so the collector is asking so little here.

In my book, that's a perfectly sensible thing to ask, and the vast majority of users that I know do just that. It's a matter of basic psychology that one would try to accomodate someone that has a reasonable request AND the right attitude. Now, if someone tells you that you are not worth having an object because they know better than you, the temptation to upset them can become an urge

Edited September 18, 2005 by Denis Richard

[antoniosz]

Some pictures:

 

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/azavalia/comparison.jpg

Can you tell me which one is the reblackened one?

The large lines are the chasing of the HR. The lack of surface features gives away the pristine one. The surface roughness of the treated one cuts down the gloss of the surface compared to a pristine one, but it of course invisible since the scale is very small. You can see it with a x30 loupe.

 

I believe that the roughness is oxidation related. Oxidized surfaces are very prone to damage. Oxidation by itself may cause various levels of damage. Either the roughness was from oxidation and was left by the treatment process intact, or it was caused by the treatment. I believe that it was there and was left intact.

 

If you try to remove the surface roughness of the treated one you create a nice brown spot The penetration of the treatment is very small - my estimate is of the order of a micron. In the picture below I took a X-acto knife and too a slice off the surface. The top and right is the treated surface. Bottom left is what is left after the surgery (you can see the marks of the blade. The reblackened surface layer ends very abruptly. The white layer under it is the oxidized layer that is masked by the reblackening. My estimate is that its thickness is about 5-10 microns.

 

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/azavalia/oxi3.jpg

 

Of course I only have one treated pen.

Edited September 19, 2005 by antoniosz

[Roger]

I really hope that you don't mean that you do with your pens what you wish more that you do with them what a prudent, thinking, rational being would do with them.

A prudent, thinking, rational being by your definition, Roger W, is someone who thinks like you and yours! We're talking about pens here, not whether I am mistreating a life or someone's well being. PENS, not LIFE, LIBERTY etc.

 

If I owned a nice MHR pen that I wanted to use as a daily writer, and it would please me to have it blackened by a irreversible process, I'd have it done in a heartbeat, no matter what the worth might be to the collecting community. If the collectors get to it first, fine, they do with it what they will. If I get to it first, even if ignorant of of its value, I do with it what I will.

 

Like I said, you want there to be a protected domain out there where people, who know more than I, will determine what can be done with vintage pens. Not a chance! I am to pass on specimens thought worthy by the cognoscenti to be out of my realm for lesser specimens that are ok for me to use? Not a chance!

 

I've said all that I care to on this. I can't make my position any more clear, nor can you say anthing further. So, continue on gentlle ladies and men, I'm outa this thread.

Edited September 19, 2005 by Roger

[KCat]

As a user of vintage pens, and collector (of user grade vintage pens), the idea that I require instruction as to the “error of my ways” is what creates some of the divide. People who collect vintage pens for use are not stupid, careless, uneducated collectors. Equal time is spent on the hobby but on a different focus. Some dividing topics have no solution, and this topic probably fits the bill best.

Russ, you hit the nail on the head for me.

 

From Roger W.

That being said, I have to cringe that it also includes allowing the owner to be as stupid as he/she wants to be.

 

Does it matter that I find this highly offensive? Probably not.

[KCat]

We're talking about pens here, not whether I am mistreating a life or someone's well being. PENS, not LIFE, LIBERTY etc.

actually, i think this discussion takes us back to that NYT article about a group that is perceived by the "outsider" as a bit nutty.

 

Let's face it, this is sounding like a Trekkie discussion over whether or not Enterprise was an abomination. I for one, loved the show. Who cares if it was "true" to the original or not. It's entertainment. (ducking and running)

 

Likewise, while I don't see pens as solely utilitarian and am fine with Collectors doing whatever they need to do to soothe their fears. Their "rules" will not impact how I buy, sell, or trade in pendom. What does impact me, is the level of elitism I see in some of these arguments and this really turns me off of buying vintage pens at all. of course, maybe that's the goal - if only Collectors are buying and selling vintage pens, then they needn't worry about "stupid" users. so hey, i've come full circle, ya'll keep doing what you're doing.

 

With that, i too will take my leave of this thread lest I turn it into something I'll have to delete later.

 

(it may be too late for that so I give the other admins free reign with this post if I don't decide to come back and delete it first.)

[Guest Denis Richard]

If I did not miss anything, there are three main concerns (I don't consider the moral fluffy arguments as true concerns) :

• Fraud : in my opinion, there are many forms of fraud already out there. Antonios showed that, at least in his example, he can tell the difference between an untouched and a blackened pen. A 30x loop is not a great investment. If the idea is for collectors to be able to buy on EBay in confidence, I submit that it has never been possible in the first place. As long as you do not see a pen in person, you can not know if the description is honest.
  
• Collectability : if the community at large think that a reblackened pen is less collectable, then it will be worth less, and if the interested parties make the effort to take their loop and are able to recognize a treated pen, the process will lose popularity. It's basically in the hands of the market. If the market decides that blackening is a valid restoration technique, then you have been focused on buying coal mining operations shares when oil was taking over as the main energy source. Too bad.
  
• Preservation : Are Gio's G10 and Syd's #9 harmless to pens. They think it is. But aif some collectors are not convinced, why don't they test the products themselves ?
  

Denis.

[Maja]

We're talking about pens here, not whether I am mistreating a life or someone's well being. PENS, not LIFE, LIBERTY etc.

actually, i think this discussion takes us back to that NYT article about a group that is perceived by the "outsider" as a bit nutty.

 

Let's face it, this is sounding like a Trekkie discussion over whether or not Enterprise was an abomination. I for one, loved the show. Who cares if it was "true" to the original or not. It's entertainment. (ducking and running)

 

Likewise, while I don't see pens as solely utilitarian and am fine with Collectors doing whatever they need to do to soothe their fears. Their "rules" will not impact how I buy, sell, or trade in pendom. What does impact me, is the level of elitism I see in some of these arguments and this really turns me off of buying vintage pens at all. of course, maybe that's the goal - if only Collectors are buying and selling vintage pens, then they needn't worry about "stupid" users. so hey, i've come full circle, ya'll keep doing what you're doing.

 

I agree with KCat....except the part about "Star Trek: Enterprise"

Being a Trekkie myself, I find my fellow ST fans to be generally inclusive...The pen collecting community sometimes comes across as rather exclusive at times... and I don't just mean with this latest discussion...