Suggestions for Sid's magic reblackening potion...

[Guest Denis Richard]

The famous hot potato reblackening BHR discussion

 

My personal take on this is that :

 

1 - a discoloured pen usually loses it collectability (or at least a big part of its monetary value), thus reblackening an "olived" BHR should not matter much for the collector (even though I understand "rare" models can have a high value, even if discoloured);

 

2 - restoration is done on all parts of pens, and with a large number of techniques, and reblackening is just another one that collectors need to learn to recognize, the same way that they can (or should) recognize a retipped nib, a restored filler, replatted trims, etc...

 

I understand that collectors who have built a BHR collection over decades can be a little frustrated if the prices go down because of general suspicion. But honestly, the reblackening issue is on topic because of recent processes that are destributed by Giovanni or Syd for example, but how can the collecting community know that reblackening pens (by any mean that might not be widely advertised...) was not a common practice even before today ? And also, isn't the high price of non-discoloured BHR the reason why one can fear dishonest use of those products ? Thus, a drop in price of BHR should actually lower those risks... a sort of feedback loop.

 

I have a Swan for sale that I reblackened with Syd' potion. The chasing is worn, the imprint is worn, trims are brassed and with plating loss. I strongly doubt that I added any commercial value to it, or that I destroyed any historical value. I know there are collectors who think vintage models should not be used, period. I think that both collecter and users can live side by side, as long as users respect valuable (in the collecting sense) pens. "Historical" models should be left to collectors, and users should not be blamed for using models that show heavy signs of wear and/or are common, or for trying to make them look their best.

 

I think the bottom line in my mind is that there were, are and will always be dishonest dealers/sellers, and I am not convinced that reblackening will be such a disaster or is any different form all other techniques. And if you add to that the unwillingness and/or lack of capability of the collecting community to organize itself or define any standards, isn't trying to deal with reblackening now putting the cart before the horse ?

 

Finally, all collecting communities that I know of value a good restoration. Advocating to let an historical classic car rust because one can not predit the effect of modern paint on vintage alloy would not be very welcomed by the car collectors I think. Only the pen community seems to have issues with protecting the objects, and would prefer to let them virginally decay.

 

Denis.

Edited September 13, 2005 by Denis Richard

[Roger]

Hi Roger, (Nice name, BTW)

 

I have no dog in this fight, but the logic on both sides interests me. What would satisfy you as "full disclosure"? It seems to me that a couple of simple sentences from the practitioner of the process should suffice. For instance, were I Richard Binder, at this moment the exclusive licensee of Giovanni's product, I would tell the potential customer that:

 

1. The process is not reversible.

2. The value of the pen, in the collectors market, may either increase or decrease because of the process.

 

What else would be necessary? That's so easy that Richard could easily present it in writing and have the customer sign off on it. Would that in writing represent full disclosure?

I have a feeling that this is not just being used on pens that have limited collector importance but, some misguided owners are having your product used on important BHR to their detriment and the detriment of the collecting community as a whole.

Nos. 1 and 2 above take care of the possible detriment to the owner. Where is the detriment to the "collecting community"? You make it sound as if the pen, as a vintage example, belongs to the collecting community as a whole, and the owner of the pen has no exclusive rights with his property. What if the owner, in a fit of anger, stomps on the pen, then later offers it for sale, as is. Is he culpable for his willful act to the "collecting community"? Wow! Shades of Home Owners Associations come to pendom.

[Roger W.]

Roger;

 

I went simply by Roger for a long time but, then I had a few people confuse my with Roger Cromwell so I added the W.

 

Your disclosure approaches a certain level of fairness - may increase or decrease value. At least it may lead to further questions and doesn't state "this is a bad idea but you can do it anyway" - so OK it's fair.

 

If someone stomps on a pen isn't it a loss to the whole collecting community?

 

Denis, I've been looking on creating a set of Generally Accepted Restoration Methods which would address a wide variety of restoration methods employed.

 

Roger W.

[RussA]

Denis, I've been looking on creating a set of Generally Accepted Restoration Methods which would address a wide variety of restoration methods employed.

 

Roger W.

Roger W.,

 

This would go a long way in setting some form of generally recognized guidelines; new collectors, as well as seasoned ones, could at least have some resource to be referred to when making repair decisions. The more information one has on any subject is always best.

 

As an endeavor such as you suggest is in no way enforceable, and given that there are “user collectors”, “antique collectors”, “limited edition collectors”… so on, your suggested guideline project would be daunting but not impracticable.

 

I would welcome such a project on your part but only to the extent that it was relevant to my collecting interests. If my perspective is needed, I would be more than happy to share it. Thanks.

[Guest Denis Richard]

Denis, I've been looking on creating a set of Generally Accepted Restoration Methods which would address a wide variety of restoration methods employed.

Hi Roger,

 

that would be an interesting thing. The discussions about repair ethics, grading standards, etc., have been around for some time. I am curious about how you are thinking about spreading the standards. There has been talks of lobbying the PCA, or creating a dealers association to "enforce" them.

 

My take on this is that the pressure needs to come from the collectors themselves. It will be extremely hard to convince a majority of professionals to create any standards. First because they might not see great incentives in adding constraints to there profession, and also because it would most likely be difficult for them to come to an agreement on the standards themselves.

 

A set of standards, if well defined and not too obscure, if popular and reasonable, could be slowly introduced by the community. If dealers and other professionals face the same questions, inspired by those standards, over and over, they will end up going with them.

 

Bottom line, may be the collectors should stop waiting for a Messianic association, and put standards out there already. It seems like this is what you are heading to Roger, right ?

Edited September 13, 2005 by Denis Richard

[Roger W.]

Denis;

 

You wrote right out of my mind! (OK, that's a bit too cool).

 

Anyway, yes, I have relized that restorers have no incentive to stop offering some of the services they perform without pressure from collectors that the process is just bad for the hobby. I agree that there is no enforcement but by self disapline which would be guided by Generally Accepted Restoration Methods (GARM). This, of course, can be deviated from when necessary (note Generally Accepted). I've started a discussion on another Board and for more imput we'll bring it here too. Some of these points are extreme and need to be modified but it is a starting point.

 

Collector Code

 

1. Do no harm

2. Restoration technique must be reversible

3. Reblacking Hard Rubber pens has no purpose in collecting

4. Replating Rolled Gold has no purpose in collecting

5. Vintage pens should not be overpolished

6. Only original parts should be used in restoration of hardware

7. Nibs should not be reground from original shape

8. Sheaffer vacs should not use rubber washers packed onto the packing unit

 

This is meant to cover vintage pens and not apply to modern pens. I suggest pens through 1965 giving 20 years for honest, head to head, competition with ballpoints (we lost that war ). I've modified the original point 5 to make it more clear. There is also lots of reasons and possibilities on modifying point 4. Please feel free to add some model specific points.

 

Perhaps this becomes a two part guide. Part one would be the GARM and part two would be a model specific reference guide to key points to look out for.

 

Roger W.

[Roger]

I went simply by Roger for a long time but, then I had a few people confuse my with Roger Cromwell so I added the W.

Good point. If you can convince Roger Cromwell to use Roger C., I'll go to Roger B. Not willing, though, to allow one generic Roger unless it's me , since I'm pretty sure that I'm older than either of you.

If someone stomps on a pen isn't it a loss to the whole collecting community?

IMNSHO, No! The "collecting community" is the agglomeration of the *people* engaged in the collecting of pens. They collect whatever there is to collect. As long as I am the legal owner of a particular piece, it is not in the collecting pool. If I stomp it, it merely means that I can no longer make it part of that pool, but that is my right. [RANT]I have this thing about property rights as being crucial to the success of our democratic republic, thus far, and fear that it is being whittled away to the ultimate destruction of our society as we know it. [/RANT]

Denis, I've been looking on creating a set of Generally Accepted Restoration Methods which would address a wide variety of restoration methods employed.

That's a noble task that you are undertaking, but for a group that can't standardize on grading definitions, it will be a herculean task. Certainly worthwhile undertaking, however. Good luck!

[Roger W.]

Roger (generic no initial Roger);

 

I can see your point about ownership rights but, must disagree with it. As to the ownership of anything that will outlast us, we are mere caretakers. So the community of collectors is effected as a whole by your actions. We do owe a duty. Perhaps this is part of the curse of having civilization. I feel everyday that we are becoming more of a police state but, that's another matter mostly [Rant].

 

Roger W.

[RussA]

[RANT]I have this thing about property rights as being crucial to the success of our democratic republic, thus far, and fear that it is being whittled away to the ultimate destruction of our society as we know it. [/RANT]

Right-On Roger.

 

I am in total agreement with your sentiments on personal property rights. I would not welcome any mandated restraints from an organization, or any other such entity for that matter, that sought to control how I used my personal property (pens for this discussion). Far too many of our rights have be marginalized already.

 

At a recent show I was told politely “no thank you” to my purchase of a relatively inexpensive Mint pen. The seller caught-on through conversation that I was a user of the pens I collect. The imposition of his collecting standards upon me did not settle well with me. I felt degraded…

 

On the other hand, a well defined policy manual, or whatever else that could be devised, could aid collectors through forewarning potential harm to a pen’s collectible value. I would hate to find my collection, meager as it is, was worth far less than thought due to ignorant restoration practices.

[wimg]

Hi Roger W.,

Roger (generic no initial Roger);

 

I can see your point about ownership rights but, must disagree with it.  As to the ownership of anything that will outlast us, we are mere caretakers.  So the community of collectors is effected as a whole by your actions.  We do owe a duty.  Perhaps this is part of the curse of having civilization.  I feel everyday that we are becoming more of a police state but, that's another matter mostly [Rant].

 

Roger W.

I would agree with you when it comes to really durable items, like land, water, air, or generally the earth and what makes the earth the earth, or living things for that matter.

 

When it comes to manufactured inanimate objects meant for use, I don´t. Anything else belongs in a museum. Of course, if you want to start a collection for your own museum, with items that you think belong in there, that´s fine, it serves a purpose. But to a user, he or she is allowed to do with those objects like he or she pleases, IMO.

 

If someone owns a car or house, and they want to modify it, for their own purposes, they are allowed to do so, as long as they don´t harm (as in injure or kill, etc.) anybody by doing so. That´s my opinion anyway. And these objects fall in the same category.

Pens are objects meant to be used, so I think everybody who owns a pen has an inalienable right to do with a pen what he or she wants, IMO, again, as long as you don´t injure or kill another person.

 

And rare pens or those pens that are more art than pens to write with, will end up in museums anyway, or in someone´s collection (which IMO is the same thing). Occasionally, user grade or user pens of better grade, will end up in museums and collections too, but that is more telling of us humans, than a perceived need to do so.

 

Anyway, just my opinion, and I am a user of pens, rather than a true collector.

 

Warm regards, Wim

[Roger W.]

Wim and Russ;

 

There is a point when an object that was meant to be used crosses over to a thing that is meant to be preserved. No one in their right mind would spend a mint 1917 quarter. It was meant to be passed into circulation afterall but, at some point it crossed over into a collectable which is meant to be preserved. Modern manufactured items are certainly meant for use and modification but, again, at some point everything old passes over to earning preservation status. We may still disagree on this but, I hope this makes my point a little clearer.

 

Russ, I'm glad you didn't get the mint vintage (I take it as vintage though you didn't say but, only makes sense that way) pen. Relatively, inexpensive or not, there are fewer and fewer of them available. I do think that you could actually carefully use and carefully clean such a piece. I'm not so extreme as to think that once inked it is forever ruined you just run a risk of damage when using something.

 

Roger W.

[RussA]

Russ, I'm glad you didn't get the mint vintage (I take it as vintage though you didn't say but, only makes sense that way) pen. Relatively, inexpensive or not, there are fewer and fewer of them available.

I do see your point Roger, but the whole pen market as it is kinda negates the museum spirit of collecting..IMHO. Sorry, yes it was a vintage pen, but the hypocricy of the seller was amusing. On the one hand he is preserving a pen for some future purpose, but at the same time selling it in the "open market" to the hundreds of the "general public" for profit. These shows are not "serious collector only" formats. If some pens need to be out of the market and put up for the future, I can certainly see that. Still, that decision must always remain with the owner of the pen.

[Roger W.]

Russ;

 

I understand your angst in that the guy was selling the pen but, you have to understand shows. Not all of these people are "sellers" in the pure sense of the word. They are hobbiest, collectors, etc. the pen doesn't fit in their collection but, they see it fitting in someone else's that will appreciate it. Many show "sellers" are not as you would have them be willing to sell all there wares to just anybody.

 

Roger W.

[RussA]

Hey, people are people, I give everyone their opinions. My intention was not to harp on the seller but just to show how out of whack thinking can get.

 

My point was: If this thing is some museum piece, why the heck is it sitting in the middle of tray sub-standard pens for general sale. By the logic of removing certain vintage from general circulation, wouldn't private collector sale/auction be more appropriate to preserve the integrity of this pen.

 

As usual Roger, you bring good discussion. I think your written standards idea is an excellent idea. But still, if it is one sided and doesn't address users, I think it will have less of an effect.

 

Thanks.

[Roger W.]

Russ;

 

It's great having your input and I am trying to wrap my arms around how to satisfy users on this one. I honestly don't have a natural inclination to do so but it is important as users make up the majority of the discussion. I do think that collectors are in the minority and, unintentionally, users end up devaluating some key pieces.

 

You're right that sellers at shows don't group pens by users and collector specimens. Not all sellers would know the difference. If it is a big pen they can take a guess but, many of the smaller pens remain unidentified unless a collector seeking it out is lucky enough to find it.

 

I've just love mint stickered pens as they are such a valuable source of information. As a brand there is a lot of information on Parkers and more people there know what is rare and what isn't. There is less of that with the other brands and, from my viewpoint, diminishing information as examples are sold that won't have articles written about them. That information means a lot to me, Russ, just something that makes me tick I guess. Thanks, again, for helping me to embrace the user on this issue.

 

Roger W.

[RussA]

I'm not a pen guru by any stretch of my imagination, but I do have a respect for old pens. As a matter of fact, I have tremendous respect for anything that has survived times ravages. It breaks my heart to se something that has withstood the test time get destroyed. Recently a neighbor cut down an oak tree in his yard that has been there since my childhood... even long before that. It was sad to see and was totally uncalled for, but it was his tree... at least by my property rights beliefs. This is were my personal conflict lies. Nonetheless, I would be more than happy to share my perspective as a user collector if you decide to move forward with something.

 

Thanks.

[Guest Denis Richard]

Some more thoughts...

 

I'm happy to leave the well preserved rare models to hardcore collectors as : i) It does not make a difference to me to use a "user grade", ii) I know that some collectors want to preserve them, iii) they carry a premium on the market.

 

Roger (the generic, but O! so unique one ), Russ : Isn't the property issue somewhat moot ? I doubt Roger W. will try to create a Federal Fountain Pen Preservation Agency with policing powers to come take the pens from users' hands.

 

Roger W. : I think Roger and Russ comments go deeper than the simple property issue. There is a perception, I think, of the hardcore collecting community being sometimes arrogant and slightly "off the hook". There is a lot of contradictions between the discourse and the reality sometimes.

• Do all collectors preserve their pieces in climate controlled conditions ? Is humidity and temperature controled as it should be if the objective is to pass those pens to future generations ?
  
• We know there is a market value difference between a unused, factory original pen, and the exact same pen, in the exact same condition, but that has been inked, even once. But what is the difference on an historical point of view ? Did the ink suddenly destroy any historical information ? Did it irreversibly damage the pen ?
  
• Of the self-proclaimed "researchers", how many of them actually publish their collection of data, findings and their interpretations ? There is a minority that will gladly answer questions selectively, (and an even smaller minority that will make as much of their information as they can available ) but I don't see that many experts, compared to the apparent number, sharing widely their knowledge, as true researcher would.
  

What I am trying to push here (besides collectors' buttons ), is that there is inevitably a part of fetishism in the simple act of collecting, that is very appearant, and that somehow clashes and is inconsistent with the strong opinions that we can hear.

 

Am I just ranting ? No. Point : if collectors want users to be sensitive to their views, they should also define them consistently and make the effort to advertise them : What is the ultimate goal of hardcore collectors ? Is it building complete, focused, personal collections, or is it a collective effort to protect a wide range of historical items ? Do collectors take precautions so that their collections will not be dispersed when they die ? Do they donate to a pen museum ? Should they create a pen museum ? How are those goals acheived ? Part of defining it is your effort with repair standards. Shoudl all vintage pens put in chloroform ? (Which btw would equate discarding a part calligraphy as inferior to collecting.)

 

If users are asked to be considerate, and leave the good pieces to collectors, they have the right in exchange to know why they should be doing it. If they are asked to do it so that other individuals can fill up more cases in uncontrolled conditions, look at them on sundays, and not know if their "consideration" will have changed anything to the body of knowledge or to the number of preserved artifacts in few decades, it's not going to be very popular. If they know, or even just think that, may be, not buying a certain piece will overall be beneficial to the hobby, they might do it.

 

Define standards; define goals; define methods; then advocate and "educate" non-collectors about what you are trying to do, with a clear, coherent picture to show. They might help you or they might think that what you are doing is useless, but as long as there is no coherence, nothing is going to change.

 

Well... that the way I would go about it

Edited September 13, 2005 by Denis Richard

[einv]

denis, maybe collectors are just users with lousy handwriting so they prefer to sit and stare at their loot

 

being a bit of both, i think your viewpoint would be considered extreme by most collectors. even the purest of collectors does use fountain pens, attend pen shows, trade knowledge and resources. in fact it is such collectors who are known, the rest remain in the woodwork, their passion emerging only when their estate is disposed of.

 

ultimately, it is a matter of money. user A will not give up a mint pen to collector B unless the latter offers a fair price. from the user's viewpoint, he ought not to care what happens to the pen after that. likewise, if a collector parts with a pen to another person, he no longer should expect to control its fate, perhaps it will end up in a museum, or equally likely on a nib modifier's bench. again, the only way to retain control on the pen's fate is to hang on to it.

 

re: climate controlled conditions, there are horror stories about well-intentioned attempts to store pens in vaults which ended up crumbling for lack of ventilation. i feel these vintage warriors that did perfectly well in the dresser drawer for nearly a century don't need special pedestals built, indeed all that is needed is a hands off effort from the viewpoint of restoration.

 

the ink virginity is a reflection of a premium put on the intent of the pen be kept mint. it is not a fetish, for it is impossible to remove ink traces from a dipped pen. they are fundamentally different items in value, and not whimsical in the same way as they say a car's value drops a certain percentage if it is driven off the lot, but remains unchanged if it is only test driven. it's certainly not a fetish to insist on mint uninked.

 

is there a bit of hypocrisy? a little bit is inevitable, after all collecting entails hoarding one's collection, taking the pleasure in cataloging, etc. most collectors do not view themselves as mini-museums with the public right to view their goods quoting educational committment. most collectors merely want their pens to survive them, continue in good hands, and treasured perhaps for a long time to come.

 

in the meantime, while the hobby grows and becomes organized into a large body with rules, it remains best to exercise prudence with regard to users' treatment of collector specimens. just because no rules exist, or standards in the same sense as greater hobbies, does not mean we are free to do as we please---in fact, anticipating rules, we must try to be as conservative as possible, so that the rules will impact us in a positive and not a negative way.

[Roger W.]

Denis;

 

What a wealth of stuff to answer and it goes to the heart of something else I have said. Some people that have collected for a while will say we have an established hobby. I say we do not for many of the questions you ask. I think that the way collectors fail to present a common front does lead to the few pronouncements we make being preceived as arogant. Now onto your points;

 

Climate control - you bet! I kept my BHR pens upstairs until I got the dehumidifier in the basement.

 

Inked or Mint - I think this is a bad carry over from the LE people. If you ink it use it carefully and clean it thouroughly - who cares!?!

 

Research - You are right that few collectors research and fewer still publish. I have an article on PenTrace and answer early Sheaffer questions as many of you know. I'm working on several other articles but, it does take a lot of time and effort (I have a hard time with the camera aspect). I'm also working on an informational website.

 

I think collectors have to have a focus because resources are limited. I'm working on a near model compleat collection of Sheaffers 1912-1941 (no vacs). Also, I try to get as many Bostons as I can get my hands on (1904-1917). The Sheaffers have a lot of catalogues and ads to base first hand research on. The Bostons are a complete 180 as there is almost no printed info on them.

 

I'm working on repair standards (GARM) though it is hard to say if anyone will ever adopt it.

 

A consistant front from collectors should also be worked on - I'll see what I can do .

 

Roger W.

[Guest Denis Richard]

Roger (W.), Viv,

 

your points and explanations are exactly the kind of material that should be out there. You have to write a constitution for collectors with statement of purpose, fundamentals, ethics, etc... As I said, it does not mean you will convince everyone, but it would be positive I think... as long as it is a coherent and somewhat united representation of the hobby.

 

Ultimately, the collecting community needs a J. Paul Getty Trust to create a foundation/museum dedicated to the conservation and research of Fountain Pens. Just find a wealthy and dedicated collector, without heir or willing to shortcut them and your troubles are over

 

Denis.