Is Lion & Pen Gone For Good?

[rhr]

First some facts.

 

FPN was started in late-June 2004. This is the earliest post I could find here, message #5. But FPN wasn't archived on the Wayback Machine until Feb 13, 2005. This is what it looked like back then. FPN was started, partially, as an alternative to all the strife going on at Pentrace, mostly caused by people like David Isaacson and his enablers and apologists. Here's an early message on the topic.

 

L&P was started in late-May 2005 and was first archived on the Wayback Machine on Oct 26, 2005. Here's what it looked like back then. It was started basically as a private preserve for Rob Astyk to play in with impunity. He had been banned from practically every other message board, except Pentrace, and Ron Dutcher set up L&P as Rob's personal blogspot, or soapbox. I was there as a moderator and advisor, not an admin, when it was first started up, and I fought desperately to keep the Chatter, Politics, and Religion forums off the website, but that was the real reason-for-being for the site, and I lost out. It was also the reason I finally left the post of moderator.

 

And that's the problem with David Isaacson's message board, too. It was started basically as a private preserve for him to play in with impunity. It's nothing more than a glorified personal soapbox and unofficial blogspot. He has been banned from every pen message board he has ever participated in except Zoss, and he's drawing a fine line there as well. He wasn't getting enough attention on his real blog, or rather, enough traffic, so he tried for something with a bit more legitimacy in this new message board. If you suffer from repetition compulsion, and you like abuse, then you're his perfect match. But don't fool yourself. He'll pull the same antics over there as well. How long will it be before he is banned from his own website? ;~) Just look at what pen2paper wrote above. Her inquiry over there for gathering core references was "met with jest". Sure, he can stack up all the high-powered advisors and moderators that he can persuade to join, but it's still doomed to fail for the same reason that L&P failed. It's not the moderators and advisors that count. It's the admin.

 

So here we are. This is the state of affairs. We currently have about 6 or 7 fragmented and dissociated message boards, and no real central home for pen history. It truly is a dysfunctional family. Here's a metaphoric group portrait of the pen-collecting community. I'm the little, peripheral ninja guy up in the upper right corner, just barely peaking into the picture...;~)

 

George Kovalenko.

 

Edited August 4, 2010 by rhr

[rhr]

I think it would be better if people started writing and publishing books on archival paper and distributing same among the world's libraries. Especially the repairmen and collectors should start documenting the techniques and the details of their collections.

At last, someone else who understands the urge toward and the real value of publishing books on archival paper! :~)

 

George Kovalenko.

 

Edited August 4, 2010 by rhr

[Vintagepens]

Not to hijack the thread, but I can't but interject about the failure to use archival paper in so many expensive pen reference books. My copy of Andy Lambrou's Fountain Pens of the World is 15 years old, and the pages are already visibly yellowing around their edges. For a volume of that price, acid-free paper should have been specified. Ditto for several of my other reference books.

 

Digital data is here to stay, though, like it or not. Best to learn how to archive it properly.

[Buzz J]

Here's a metaphoric group portrait of the pen-collecting community. I'm the little, peripheral ninja guy up in the upper right corner, just barely peaking into the picture...;~)

 

George Kovalenko.

 

 

George,

 

What a great picture, but I've never seen such a collection of ears! :ltcapd:

 

John

[RLTodd]

I think it would be better if people started writing and publishing books on archival paper and distributing same among the world's libraries. Especially the repairmen and collectors should start documenting the techniques and the details of their collections.

At last, someone else who understands the urge and the real the value of publishing books on archival paper! :~)

 

George Kovalenko.

 

 

Unless, of course, one can laser engrave it on slate. (more serious than less)

[RLTodd]

......

Digital data is here to stay, though, like it or not. Best to learn how to archive it properly.

 

I keep finding situations where it is ephemeral.

 

It looks like it is more like digital is here to stay, but the data isn't.

 

I have come to think it is more like non-archival pulp paper in books.

 

Here today gone in a century or less.

[Johnny Appleseed]

I think it would be better if people started writing and publishing books on archival paper and distributing same among the world's libraries. Especially the repairmen and collectors should start documenting the techniques and the details of their collections.

At last, someone else who understands the urge toward and the real the value of publishing books on archival paper! :~)

 

George Kovalenko.

 

 

For every story of lost digital data, you have the story of the collector who died with boxes of paper notes and research, a lifetime of collecting history, and it all gets dumped by the family who didn't appreciate the value. For finished works we do have paper resources - the Pennant, for one, as well as a host of books and magazines.

 

Online formats provide an incredibly valuable tool for collaboration and collection of information. There is information in a research site, where like-minded people can pool resources, throw out ideas and ask questions. These are things you can't do in a book or magazine (though there are paper newsletters that performed a similar function, though not as interactive.

 

Digital data is here to stay, though, like it or not. Best to learn how to archive it properly.

 

Here here. It really shouldn't be that difficult. What we need is to have more enduring organizations "own" the project, and establish a reasonable backup process.

 

What is most disappointing about this whole situation is the amount of work that many of us put into researching and sharing information that is then so carelessly discarded. Why do we keep supporting these private preserves of juvenile individuals, only to have our efforts wasted and lost?

 

John

[lovemy51]

L&P treated me as if i were a common criminal, so i asked to be deleted... "that's all i have to say about that" (said Mr Gump).

[Dave Johannsen]

The problem is that when a difficult personality starts something like that, it automatically excludes a significant portion of the community.

 

I think that these things are largely what you make of them. Though I'll confess that I always enjoyed Rob's firey posts (his inability to exercise self-control always made me chuckle), I am posting at the new board (perhaps without a lot of hope of success, at this early point). My motives are not to act as a personal endorsement for any of the players there; I just want to see pen history posts, in a setting where they are archived. (I still have a soft spot in my heart for Pentrace, but won't ask history questions there, since they will be gone forever after only a couple of days.)

 

As for the purpose of Dr. I.'s new board, there may be ulterior motives, but I'm not so sure... I think that Dr. I. really loves to talk about pens. So, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that the new board was created for that purpose (as he has been tossed out of most other sandboxes), and not to steer people to his site for pen sales. Maybe I'm wrong, but if I enjoy reading some of the information posted there, then why would I care that there is a hidden agenda?

 

It's too early to tell how things will shape up. I don't think that FPB will become another L&P, as L&P really was designed to appeal to a very small niche. However, it may become something that can be useful and interesting. Only time will tell...

 

 

 

Dave

[jde]

I'm sad to see L&P gone. But I never posted enough to get into the "locked room."

 

George's post about the "personality history" of these boards was quite fascinating and sad.

 

I'd just like to add: It's not enough to preserve the history whatever the format. There also needs to be a way to encourage new people to take up the history. Not all of us can get to pen shows despite the strong interest.

 

I can count on one hand the people who have actively encouraged my interest in pen history or answered direct questions for information or guidance. And so I end up engaging very little with you "guys."

 

If David Nishimura ever wanted to teach an online class on research: I'd even pay somethin' for it.

 

Kind regards,

Julie

[Dave Johannsen]

So here we are. This is the state of affairs. We currently have about 6 or 7 fragmented and dissociated message boards, and no real central home for pen history. It truly is a dysfunctional family.

 

A great summary of the history. Though I try to keep on-line hijinks in perspective (i.e., leave them at the computer), you did bring back some interesting memories. I guess that I've been a small part of this hobby long enough to really enjoy these "looks back." In hindsight, it's been a strange and meandering road that has brought us to this point.

 

Though I'm sure that I'll provoke some, I will say that I have missed Rob. With the demise of L&P, there is no place for Rob. I don't know that he's been banned by FPN, but I don't think that he would ever poke his head in here anyway. I'm confident in saying that he would neither seek an account at FPB nor would he be granted one if he tried. It's really kind of pathetic that we can't get people to exercise common civility and manners on-line... (sigh)

 

 

Dave

Edited August 4, 2010 by Dave Johannsen

[Dave Johannsen]

I'd just like to add: It's not enough to preserve the history whatever the format. There also needs to be a way to encourage new people to take up the history. Not all of us can get to pen shows despite the strong interest.

 

I can count on one hand the people who have actively encouraged my interest in pen history or answered direct questions for information or guidance. And so I end up engaging very little with you "guys."

 

There's only one way: jump in with both feet. Pick a topic of interest, learn what you can (through Google Books and established collecting sites) and fire away with the questions. I think that most will be happy to lend whatever knowledge they can. I pestered George K. and Rob A. and David N. and David I. and Len P. and Don L. and Ron D. and Fultz and David M. and so many others, but they never seemed to get too tired of my questions (at least they were too polite to show their fatigue). We now know so much more about any maker than is contained in any book, that you just need to dive in, focus your collection, and fire away.

 

 

Dave

Edited August 4, 2010 by Dave Johannsen

[jde]

I'd just like to add: It's not enough to preserve the history whatever the format. There also needs to be a way to encourage new people to take up the history. Not all of us can get to pen shows despite the strong interest.

 

I can count on one hand the people who have actively encouraged my interest in pen history or answered direct questions for information or guidance. And so I end up engaging very little with you "guys."

 

There's only one way: jump in with both feet. Pick a topic of interest, learn what you can (through Google Books and established collecting sites) and fire away with the questions. I think that most will be happy to lend whatever knowledge they can. I pestered George K. and Rob A. and David N. and David I. and Len P. and Don L. and Ron D. and Fultz and David M. and so many others, but they never seemed to get too tired of my questions (at least they were too polite to show their fatigue). We now know so much more about any maker than is contained in any book, that you just need to dive in, focus your collection, and fire away.

 

 

Dave

 

Thank you, Dave. Yes, of course and I do.

 

And in citing myself as an example I hope the point does not get lost:

It's not enough to preserve the history whatever the format. There also needs to be a way to encourage new people to take up the history.

[Zaarin]

Here here. It really shouldn't be that difficult. What we need is to have more enduring organizations "own" the project, and establish a reasonable backup process.

 

I'd just like to add: It's not enough to preserve the history whatever the format. There also needs to be a way to encourage new people to take up the history.

 

In terms of the question of the preservation of digital data, I think these points are key. Data of any kind - physical or digital - gets lost when people stop treating it with care and lose interest in its survival.

 

I have all my significant personal computer data backed up on five external HDs in two separate locations (I plan to make that three as soon as possible, with at least six drives). If you take the latter version, you're looking at a probability of total loss by external destruction comparable to the simultaneous burning down/looting of three separate libraries. There is, of course, the issue of hardware failure of various kinds, which reduces the probabilities substantially compared to good non-digital media, but even then once you have enough backups on a few sites the chances of it happening multiply at once become very small.

 

Imagine what that gets to on the scale of a larger organisation (say the digital equivalent of a library). You put off-line backups in ten locations in ten copies per location - the probabilities of near-simultaneous total failure or destruction become almost infinitessimally small.

 

You're left with the problem of format obsolescence - and actually here the impermanence of digital hardware might ironically help. When a single backup fails (or its format goes within a hundred miles of becoming obsolete) you replace it and reestablish it with new equipment. Provided you keep doing this, only total broad-scale catastrophe can have an effect. Care is everything.

 

Of course, there is the issue of electricity. You can't get round that, and it is catastrophic in principle.

[pen2paper]

So.. rather than flog dead links, difficult past issues, people with issues.. etc..

Per Dave's only one way, let's move forward. Positively.

Via another study site.. which has a classification system (click PDF for current classification http://www.nationalbuttonsociety.org/NBS_Publications_%26_Forms.html) for competitive awards, and also collector books, which are used alternately in cyberstudy.. Could we have a study day.. with topic of the week/month.. photos, topics, inquiries, all (always) in a serious continuum...?

Perhaps this is not the time to start this.. (summer, vacations etc) but let's discuss study/reference framework?

[Buzz J]

So.. rather than flog dead links, difficult past issues, people with issues.. etc..

Per Dave's only one way, let's move forward. Positively.

Via another study site.. which has a classification system (click PDF for current classification http://www.nationalbuttonsociety.org/NBS_Publications_%26_Forms.html) for competitive awards, and also collector books, which are used alternately in cyberstudy.. Could we have a study day.. with topic of the week/month.. photos, topics, inquiries, all (always) in a serious continuum...?

Perhaps this is not the time to start this.. (summer, vacations etc) but let's discuss study/reference framework?

 

I'm confident that we can get this incorporated into the PCA's website. It meets the permanence requirement. There actually is an inactive forum on the website. We probably can tweak it to meet our needs.

 

John

[Johnny Appleseed]

The problem is that when a difficult personality starts something like that, it automatically excludes a significant portion of the community.

 

I think that these things are largely what you make of them. Though I'll confess that I always enjoyed Rob's firey posts (his inability to exercise self-control always made me chuckle), I am posting at the new board (perhaps without a lot of hope of success, at this early point). My motives are not to act as a personal endorsement for any of the players there; I just want to see pen history posts, in a setting where they are archived. (I still have a soft spot in my heart for Pentrace, but won't ask history questions there, since they will be gone forever after only a couple of days.)

 

Dave - that is why I cited you as an example of people with the skills to bridge divisions.

 

I always found Rob's tendancy to throw in ideological bombs and insults where they don't belong to be tedious and childish. Personally I have never felt deeply offended, and I am happy to chat politics with him. I also deeply respect his knowledge and his passion for pen history.

 

But the problem is that when L&P first opened, the very first person banned was Dr. I, from the getgo, before he had done a thing on L&P, based on Rob's history with him. I can understand the concern regarding the good Doctor's past behavior, but he should have been at least given the opportunity to behave. I can think of several other names in the vintage pen collector/historian/repair person community - significant people in the community - who were clearly unwelcome from the start and insulted by the principle admin.

 

I think Dr. I. does like to talk about vintage pens, and he has a lot of knowledge and a very large collection and photo database. He has done some serious work to advance our knowledge of some of the more esoteric and under-appreciated topics. His board has some good people on it, but I somehow doubt that Rob, for example, would feel particularly welcome there.

 

Scholorship should be a place where we rise above personal vendetta'a and ego-trips, and where all are welcome in an atmosphere of respect for the knowledge we have and strive for. When we allow selfish low-road motivations to define and control who may and may not participate in our collaborative efforts, we have lost something very important (and yes, I know that academia is full of such petty rivalries and arrogance, so it's not unique to our hobby).

 

Maybe all that we can hope for is a few different sites, serving the specific factions within the community, and a group of folks like you and David Nishimura and George who can cross pollinate and share links across the divisions. We are human after all, and interpersonal conflict is a human trait. I am over at the Fountain Pen Board for the same reasons that you are. But I still wonder why we are willing to let so much energy and knowledge get controlled, corrupted, and now perhaps permanently lost, in the service of ego.

 

John

[Ray-Vigo]

Hmm I visited L+P and posted a few times and never felt less than welcomed or felt insulted. I thought there was a lot of nice information there. Too bad it's down.

 

I've also been visiting the fountainpenboard some and have enjoyed the discussion there. It seems this board is more general in nature and that the other one is more specialized in the vintage pen world, and that the other really digs down into collecting and variation details.

 

I like both this board and the fountainpenboard, though I'll admit the other board seems to have fewer of the "gratuitous" post people who post in EVERY thread, even where they add nothing.

Edited August 4, 2010 by Ray-Vigo

[Dave Johannsen]

I always found Rob's tendancy to throw in ideological bombs and insults where they don't belong to be tedious and childish.

 

You're being too kind... Rob's outbursts rose to the level of being severely imbalanced. That being said, I really did like him (as much as one can call someone from the web a "friend", I would put Rob in that category). I realize that my "friendship" colors my judgement, but I have not lost so much objectivity that I cannot fully understand those who find him insufferable. In fact, I would go so far as to say that he seemed to have a dysfunctional relationship with almost all he encountered, and this did nothing to help L&P. Anyway, the quality of threads and civility and informed discourse that was found at L&P seems to have been a singular occurence in my brief involvement in the hobby, so it's passing is something to be mourned (especially as I have been so busy over the last couple of years that I was not participating much there).

 

I do agree with you that the fractured camps that exist in this hobby is a big obstacle to be overcome (it seems insurmountable right now). Perhaps a few years down the road we can get past it. In the meantime, I will try to participate wherever there are real discussions of vintage pens.

 

 

 

Dave

[Roger W.]

I'm sad to see L&P gone. But I never posted enough to get into the "locked room."

 

George's post about the "personality history" of these boards was quite fascinating and sad.

 

I'd just like to add: It's not enough to preserve the history whatever the format. There also needs to be a way to encourage new people to take up the history. Not all of us can get to pen shows despite the strong interest.

 

I can count on one hand the people who have actively encouraged my interest in pen history or answered direct questions for information or guidance. And so I end up engaging very little with you "guys."

 

If David Nishimura ever wanted to teach an online class on research: I'd even pay somethin' for it.

 

Kind regards,

Julie

 

 

Julie;

 

Is there something you are interested in researching? Much of it is asking the right questions or thinking them up in the first place. I've spent years researching Boston Fountain Pen Company. It takes a lot of time to assimulate information which often leads to new questions. I'm pretty much out of leads now but that doesn't mean a new lead won't pop up soon. Anyway, what do you want to research? I find it the funest part of collecting and most rewarding. I'll also tip my cap to David in that he is one of the few that does the writing right he sticks to the facts and I've looked at some of his stuff really hard and it stands up. Every book out there to date does not stand up to even the lightest scrutiny so we need researchers that back up what they write.

 

Roger W.