Shoddy Work by Big Names

February 2, 2010

I posted about it, but I, too, left out all references even to the offender's gender, so as to avoid being attacked by hordes of this person's unthinking defenders.

I am curious about the characterization of the defenders as "unthinking"? Surely some feedback may just be based on personal experience that may be different from yours?

Although I suppose this is the kind of thinking that makes me hesitate to post about negative experiences - often times I do think it is just me*. That's exactly why it would be good to see more honest feedback from the community.

Sorry about your LE - ouch!

*Thank goodness I've only had one negative experience where a nib modification needed to be redone (incidentally, the problem was not by the "Pillar" referenced here or in the original thread - my experience there have been positive).

February 2, 2010

Good grief. We're talking about pens and pen repairs folk. Pen repairs are NOT all that expensive and often the problem is more one of communication than of reality. The customer is NOT always right and in fact these days, I'd say the customer is very often WRONG.

Sorry, but as a professional restorer I have to disagree with some of your statements....
The basic pen repair (resacs) is not that expensive, but a lot or restoration work really brings the price way up... especially on less common pens...

As for the matter of communication... any reputable pen restorer will make sure he knows exactly what the customer wants... sometimes that means multiple emails if the customer is confused... but personally, I would rather take the time to make sure all issues are communicated properly than have a problem down the road...

I find the last statement very interesting... while it is true that sometimes the customer is not right, I will not say they are very often WRONG. If the restorer has taken the time to communicate with the customer and make the customer understand what work is going to be done, and then the restorer does that work properly and within the price range quoted there should be no reason for the customer to complain. YES, there are some customers you will never make happy, but they are few and far between in my experience.

x2.

Also, everyone makes mistakes from time to time; nobody's perfect. Very often, it's not so much the fact that damage was done that makes a customer angry, but the failure or refusal of the nibmeister or restorer to inform the customer of the mistake, apologize, and try to make things right, rather than simply shipping the screwed-up pen back to the customer without mention of the problem (or, in my case, actually going so far as trying to conceal it and following up with a flat out denial of having done it). Nothing can make a customer angrier in pendom than waiting forever to get a treasered pen back from a regrind, waiting in breathless anticipation to finally be able to write with it the way you want it to, opening the box, then ... "WHAT???!!!" A little communication and honesty goes a long way (at least to me).

Lastly, I think it would be very low for an unhappy customer to trash a nibmeister or restorer who made an honest mistake, owned up to it, and tried to make things right rather than send a hatchet job back to an unsuspecting customer.

February 2, 2010

I posted about it, but I, too, left out all references even to the offender's gender, so as to avoid being attacked by hordes of this person's unthinking defenders.

I am curious about the characterization of the defenders as "unthinking"? Surely some feedback may just be based on personal experience that may be different from yours?

Although I suppose this is the kind of thinking that makes me hesitate to post about negative experiences - often times I do think it is just me*. That's exactly why it would be good to see more honest feedback from the community.

Sorry about your LE - ouch!

*Thank goodness I've only had one negative experience where a nib modification needed to be redone (incidentally, the problem was not by the "Pillar" referenced here or in the original thread - my experience there have been positive).

Unthinking in that it is often the attitude that this person can do no wrong, is a pen god, and the poster must be insane or have some evil agenda, rather than a legitimate gripe; in other words, making personal attacks against the OP with the implication that the problem was with the OP, rather than the repairer/grinder/restorer/etc. The person in my case also once sold me a "tuned" pen that didn't write at all, but I discounted that then as "it must be a once in a lifetime" because I, too, had several examples of other pieces of the person's excellent work. Point being, I guess, that people are free to leave their complimentary posts in praise of someone's work, and often do (and I often do, myself). However, no one has the right to trash someone who posts their own thread about their own experience just because the person in question did right by you; I don't ever recall seeing someone posting a thread praising a positive experience with a nibmeister, only to be met by tons of angry posts recounting opposite experiences and making personal attacks against the OP.

February 2, 2010

The originator of the thread which was removed last night (or this morning) made his initial post in a highly inflammatory manner. Even worse, in posting the email from the vendor, he posted the vendor's home address and home telephone number. As someone else noted earlier in this thread, that creates a dangerous situation. I was surprised that the thread remained in public as long as it did because of that. But moderators can't live on a board 24 hours a days.

Also, the originator of that thread later apologized for starting it, and requested it to be removed.

Saying all that, I would like to see a way to rate or comment on vendors -- polite, rational posts about experiences, such as QM2's example. It doesn't need to be any more than that--not the ^&*()_+ comments of the person who posted last night, or complete quotation of emails that include the vendors address, phone number or other private details that can cause them harm.

It's very difficult to remain neutral when many vendors are members of this community, perhaps personal friends or good acquaintances one meets at pen shows, etc. For many of us that's not the case. We send pens to people based on their reputation. We rely on them to communicate with us to make sure they understand what it is we want (referring exactly to OldGriz's post above). If we're new to fountain pens, we may rely on them even more. If we do that however, we need to make sure we're upfront with the vendor about our limited experience with fountain pens, so he/she can ask us the right questions.

Whether pen repairs are cheap or not is dependent on where your finances are at the moment. You may be flush with money, or you may be stretching your checkbook a

to get a new treasure repaired.

My experience in the FPN marketplace has been overall positive, but recently I've seen some comments about transactions that concern me. I'm also concerned at the rate the marketplace has expanded, with many people joining simply to sell here but not interacting in the forum any place else but the marketplace. I have a little more trust in someone who actively participates in other sub-forums and threads. They have a reputation to uphold throughout the board; they're not here to sell a bunch of pens and then move on, returning again in a few weeks to sell more pens.

To end a long-winded reply, yep, I'd like to see the ability to rate or comment on sellers, but ONLY if the posts are thoughtful and polite. Those are the only posts that are going to be worthwhile to anyone.

And.. God, I wouldn't moderate the marketplace sub-forum and those rating threads for all the LE's in the world!

Edited February 2, 2010 by Treecat

February 2, 2010

Ideally these things should be handled just between the seller/craftsman and the individual buying or procuring services. There apparently really is no real answer. I do feel though that a form of some kind might work but also keeping in mind that Ebay also rates the buyer, and this isn't ebay.

There are some excellent craftsmen here, nib technicians, nibmeisters, restorer's, etc, but no one is perfect and we are only human and allowed off days. Therefore let the community take care of these things. If service becomes so bad then the market will dictate that this individual will no longer be recommended.

Buyers and sellers should also be thoughtful of their relationship and what they entrust each other with. One their reputation the other perhaps a precious possession. Both are precious to the other. I have my own opinions of what caused the initial problem but will keep them to myself.

I know it sounds rather wishy-washy, but things like this should perhaps change how we handle these things.

For example:

I collect vintage pocket and wrist watches and with the jeweler I work with we both make a statement of the current condition and agree to it, and then they create a statement of work that must be agreed to before work is begun. Now you may think its ridiculous but I have worked with them for several years now and know them quite well and would not think of changing the process.

Now I hope to restrict myself from adding any further to this post.

February 2, 2010

The problem with all those pluses and minuses is that they are very easily misused/abused, as I have discovered in another forum.

I had cause some while ago to raise an ebay dispute against a (then) FPN member. I posted here and asked for his customers to share their experiences, which they did, both by PM and 'publicly'.

This was very useful to me and aided my understanding of the situation which was eventually resolved to our mutual satisfaction.

I have also, in the past year, received pens from another, highly spoken-of, 'pen-technician', which were well below how they were described, and how one might expect them to have been prepared for sale. One(a $200 P51 "from the supplier's collection") had misaligned tines and an ink-covered section.... and, I subsequently found, a cracked shell!

I phoned the supplier (on the other side of 'the pond'), and was asked to return the pen for it to be put-right (no apology was made). However, I was reluctant to lay-out extra shipping expense and time for something which I felt I could fairly easily fix (cleaning and re-aligning), so I said "No, thanks, I will do it".

When I re-aligned the tines the nib was still scratchy, and when I showed it to a more local expert he pointed-out that the tines were of unequal lengths!!

It is not unusual for him to receive pens which have been 'adjusted/restored' by this and other 'FPN stars' .... to try to put-right what had been done to them.

This is clearly an unsatisfactory situation but I would be prepared to 'name names' to anyone considering using 'pen-fixers' a long way away & with long waiting lists ....but not HERE, only in private mails, which I would require not to be 'made public'.

This seems the only reasonably discreet way to warn prospective users of such services....although, of course, they will only hear one side of the story!

It's sad, but I think that sometimes previously excellent 'service-providers' begin to read too much of their own publicity, take-on more staff to deal with the demand, and consequently, standards of quality & service slip.

[And I am appalled that any seller of new goods would claim they are "not authorised" to replace faulty items but will help customers negotiate with the makers. That would be unlawful in my part of the World ]

February 2, 2010

The reason for the rule at FPN, like so many of the moderation rules here, comes from experiences on the board. We have had situations in the past where someone has posted about a particular seller or repair person with whom they had a bad experience. However, rather than post in the measured and even-handed manner that QM2 modeled above, they came out accusing the vendor of cheating and defrauding them, and disparaging their reputation. Several people who had not done business with the vendor jump in about how such behavior was dispicable and further piled on to the vendor. As the facts emerged, it turned out to be a much more complicated picture and in some cases the customer turned out to be at fault. In other cases, the customer never contacted the vendor in the first place to try to get resolution. In a couple of cases it seemed that the customer was trying to "shake down" the vendor and use a questionable public complaint to force a discount out of the seller.

There have also been cases where public notice about a particular seller or repair person has made public cases of widespread fraud or improper behavior on the part of a seller, so it is not without merit. I think there are still private avenues by which to contact the Admins if you feel someone is actively defrauding you. However, I think that may lead to a lot of people being quite about bad behavior that should come to admins attention, thinking they are the only ones to have a bad experience, when in fact the situation is widespread.

I am not sure what the current policy is, but for a while it was acceptable to express dissatisfaction with a seller provided that you had tried in good faith to resolve the problem with the seller, had given the seller ample time and opportunity to resolve the problem, had exhausted other means of resolving the problem, and presented the situation using factual and balanced language. A public statement was to be a last resort, not a first one. I think the rules are stricter now, but the "rule of last resort" seemed a sensible one.

A rating system is a good idea in theory, but it has the potential to create a lot of work and headache for the admins, who seem streatched enough as it is. There is already some options for dispute resolution through the admins, who will help resolve some situations, but I would not want to throw more work on them. This isn't paypal or Ebay, but a volunteer organization - nobody gets paid to resolve sales disputes on FPN.

John

February 2, 2010

Good grief. We're talking about pens and pen repairs folk. Pen repairs are NOT all that expensive and often the problem is more one of communication than of reality. The customer is NOT always right and in fact these days, I'd say the customer is very often WRONG.

That's an awful lot of generalizations and assumptions in one short post.

When my nibs got ruined, aside from the sheer rage at poor botched work, there was the time factor - over six months. The cost was not cheap, labor plus secure postage both ways. Then there was the effort to make it right, which resulted in my purchasing new nibs. A lot of time and bother. In my case, the icon in question refunded all my money, after I complained in the strongest language. I won't do business with him again.

However, if there had been a forum, I might have been able to see feedback that would have helped me choose a provider, and others would have seen mine.

As it stands, I have discussed this back channel with tons of people I know, who have had, or know someone else who has had a similar experience with the same person.

This thread and its deleted predecessor have provoked a flood of of responses back channel, with similar stories, and most of all, with agreement for the need to have a proper forum for merchant feedback.

What is your basis for stating that the customer is very often wrong, in the case of pen repairs and modifications? I'd like to know.

Eric

February 2, 2010

What is your basis for stating that the customer is very often wrong, in the case of pen repairs and modifications? I'd like to know.

Eric

It is a general statement and not limited to just fountain pen repairs. It is based on personal experience and threads like this one. If we install a rating system for suppliers I hope it includes a way to rate customers as well.

February 2, 2010

As long as no one is threatening, let free speech reign.

Short of criminal behavior, much should be tolerated...

The beauty of a community like this one is the maturity of many/most of the members... With that (maturity) as comfort, that which is bunk will quickly fall off the bottom of the page into obscurity...

However, should someone have a valid opinion, regardless of how much others might disagree, should he/she not have the ability to share it? Of course, this perspective is a bit idealistic - however, shouldn't we strive to embrace this ideal?

Or, to simplify the OP's last suggestion, just create a section called "Rants" and leave it at that (which implies read/follow at your own risk)...

Edited February 2, 2010 by mejdrich

February 2, 2010

I recently wanted to send a pen to a person on this network who is reputed to be very good and relatively quick with their repair work. I did not feel comfortable posting a topic asking for opinions about this person. I wrote PMs to several of the members who I thought might have knowledge of the person and asked if they could provide positive referals. In total, I asked 5 people. 3 people answered in the affirmative with positive experiences. 1 person said that they had a slight misunderstanding over scope of work to be performed but that was cleared up quickly. The fifth had no dealings or experience. I also asked the repairer for recent referals and I contacted them via PM. In the end, I felt that I had done due diligence before using their services. My repair was made on time, correctly and within budget. Had I experienced a problem, I would have tried to work it out with the repairer in private. If all my efforts failed, I would have privately informed those who I had contacted previously of just the facts of the transaction. If interested, they could obtain the other side of the story themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if certain well known members of this network contact each other to see if anyone has prior experience in dealing with a person or entity. How did I find the people to check with before placing the order? By reading the posts on this network over a period of time, you will get a feel for those who regularly use repair services and buy or sell pens. Same with repairers and dealers. This method results in no banter in public, hurt feelings, stepped on toes or dinged egos. Not the only solution, but one that has worked for me. /Craig

February 2, 2010

The Member that, yesterday, posted the original angry complaint, quite rapidly agreed his words were inappropriate, offered sincere apologies to FPN and the vendor involved, and requested that the post be removed.

We should applaud him for the dignified way that he resolved that issue. He's just like any of us.

In the end, maybe he did us a favor.

The FPN is a community, full of information, and vendors and those offering professional custom services, are discussed here, and should be. But you have to be here a while before you pick up any under-currents of dissatisfaction that may exist, with certain vendors. The accolades are quite evident.

I don't know any of these nib meisters or vendors that enjoy being elevated to a god-like status. Any I have met or spoken with are gracious and generous of spirit.

I lost it over a pen once, it wasn't pretty.

Just fortunate it wasn't a WE or LE.

February 2, 2010

There is a lot to think about in this thread. The admins have struggled with this issue many times. I'm just letting everyone know (unofficially) we're reading and continuing to struggle with it.

I'm not speaking for the rest of the admin team right now so if you have any comments or questions about the following, please direct them to me. Our problem is that FPN is non-commercial. The trick is remaining so while allowing people to buy and sell on the site. We work very hard to prevent FPN from giving any kind of stamp of approval or disapproval. This is not easy as there are many cases where such approval/disapproval is implied. In the development of FPN the Marketplace was never meant to be a major component of the site. Buying and selling is a part of the hobby so it was included. We have recently made changes that will hopefully discourage people from joining just to buy and sell. Johnny Appleseed has very clearly expressed the problems we've seen and for myself, is the basis for being very reluctant to have a rating system.

Still listening. Still thinking.

February 2, 2010

I'll join Elaine in sharing some of my ideas on this issue. I too am speaking for myself only.

The issue of how we can have reviews without trashing unfairly a professional's reputation has been a topic of frequent debates since FPN's creation by Denis Richard about five and a half years ago. The issue is a lot more complicated than it seems at first. Considering how small the pen community is and how "everyone knows everybody else", a couple of malicious "complaints" could seriously hurt someone's ability to continue making an honest living. One has to balance the serious harm that can be inflicted onto a person versus the disappointment of a mediocre nib tuning. So we have to be careful not to allow FPN to be used as a slandering platform like a tabloid.

Another factor to consider is that experience has shown that when such disputes are aired in public, more often than not, it turns out there was a lot of background information withheld from the initial public complaint. Then starts the never ending and ugly process of peeling the layers of the onion, turning the whole thing into an unpleasant and useless spectacle.

Some people have mentioned a rating system. We all know how reliable ebay ratings are, don't we? Furthermore, who will volunteer to program such a rating system into the board software?

Lastly, one of the reasons these public disputes usually do not work out well is that there is often a lot of anger and resentment from the get go, so things usually go straight downhill and that is why those threads usually get killed. I am sure those who are able to maintain the proper tone can get a lot further than those who start a thread by going "ballistic."

On the flip side, we have also seen reasonably worded critical reviews get mauled by fans of the reviewed business, which can be intimidating and perceived as censorship. But I don't think it is fair to characterize that as being part of the "FPN culture", since we see the same behavior elsewhere. It is just a reflection of the "culture" of those fans, not of FPN.

As you can see, this is a very thorny problem that is not easy to solve. So for now, perhaps the best thing to do is to follow CraigR's method and just ask around for recommendations.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Stylo
Clarity

February 2, 2010

As others have mentioned, a seller review/feedback forum with very clear rules about content, language and tone would be useful and appreciated by all. Even though FPN tries not to promote or condemn any specific seller, as it currently stands it does do just that inadvertently by selectively censoring negative feedback.

The culture of backchannel discussions Eric mentioned is very familiar to me. Such private discussions are how I get much of my information about "the real deal" with sellers. They have helped me adjust my expectations when it comes to several "perfect" sellers - and to realise I am not crazy if I bought a pen from the seemingly beloved-by-all "Anna Fountana" and had a bad experience. But there is a duplicity and unfairness inherent in having 100% glowing posts about a seller on the public forum, vs. frustrations expressed back channel. There are many FPN members who are not privy to these private discussions and take what they see on the forum at face value (as, ideally they should!). If FPN is an information portal, then the information about quality should be representative and not a biased sample.

As I have mentioned already, the biggest challenge I see to instituting "freedom of speech" about sellers' quality, is maintaining civility. Experience has shown that people do indeed tend to "lose it" when they perceive that their pen is ruined. As a result, posts tend to be emotional and accusatory. This will present a huge problem for moderators,who may simply not want to deal with having to constantly clean up threads.

My theory though, is that this emotionality is actually a factor of the sellers having an unrealistically "perfect" reputation, and the customer feeling that "everyone is against them", because no one will acknowledge that their negative experience is valid or even possible. If we establish a legitimate procedure for voicing negative experiences, this won't be the case anymore, and critical posts should get calmer over time. Just a thought.

February 2, 2010

Hi Stylo:

Look - let's say I want some nib work done, and I post a thread to the effect "Nib work - recommendation requested"

In the text of my thread, I ask:

"I need my Waterman Patrician Medium flex nib ground down to an XF stub. I also need the flow adjusted on my Montblanc 139L and the hard rubber renewed on my Waterman 54, and its XF superflex Waterman NY No. 4 nib retipped to an OBBB. I've heard that Louis Lepke, Ma Barker, Meyer Lansky and Manuel Noriega have all been recommended. Any thoughts?"

I might get a flood of support for all of them, and someone might write that they were unhappy with the work done by Lepke, or that Noriega took too long. Isn't that part of normal communications about businesses?

The truth is, when I post questions like that to the entire community, I get what I need to know back channel. But what if I posted something like "I was thinking of using Bogdan Milosevic for a nib regrind. Has anyone had experience with him?" Well, if it's a "pillar" that's a disingenuous question. And chances are my inbox would be flooded. But is that okay to do? I think so. It should be, anyway. In any event it should be okay to request feedback about one nibmonster or another and require the feedback to be backchannel. That is probably the solution, and the moderators should probably say something like that - in order to avoid trolling, inflammations, acrimony, disharmony, etc.

February 2, 2010

Hi Stylo:

Look - let's say I want some nib work done, and I post a thread to the effect "Nib work - recommendation requested"

In the text of my thread, I ask:

"I need my Waterman Patrician Medium flex nib ground down to an XF stub. I also need the flow adjusted on my Montblanc 139L and the hard rubber renewed on my Waterman 54, and its XF superflex Waterman NY No. 4 nib retipped to an OBBB. I've heard that Louis Lepke, Ma Barker, Meyer Lansky and Manuel Noriega have all been recommended. Any thoughts?"

I might get a flood of support for all of them, and someone might write that they were unhappy with the work done by Lepke, or that Noriega took too long. Isn't that part of normal communications about businesses?
The truth is, when I post questions like that to the entire community, I get what I need to know back channel. But what if I posted something like "I was thinking of using Bogdan Milosevic for a nib regrind. Has anyone had experience with him?" Well, if it's a "pillar" that's a disingenuous question. And chances are my inbox would be flooded. But is that okay to do? I think so. It should be, anyway. In any event it should be okay to request feedback about one nibmonster or another and require the feedback to be backchannel. That is probably the solution, and the moderators should probably say something like that - in order to avoid trolling, inflammations, acrimony, disharmony, etc.

Okay, I am really smiling at the names you used. /Craig

February 2, 2010

Could we institute a review thread where a member could do no more than to post "I used John Doe to perform the following {adjust, resac, snork, etc} and will accept PMs to discuss my experience."?

February 2, 2010

The truth is, when I post questions like that to the entire community, I get what I need to know back channel. But what if I posted something like "I was thinking of using Bogdan Milosevic for a nib regrind. Has anyone had experience with him?" Well, if it's a "pillar" that's a disingenuous question. And chances are my inbox would be flooded. But is that okay to do? I think so. It should be, anyway. In any event it should be okay to request feedback about one nibmonster or another and require the feedback to be backchannel. That is probably the solution, and the moderators should probably say something like that - in order to avoid trolling, inflammations, acrimony, disharmony, etc.

You just had to bring politics into this thread didn't you? :roflmho:

Seriously, I think this may be a great solution for some of the problems.