Shoddy Work by Big Names

[eric.zamir]

Someone posted an angry message about shoddy work, and a shoddy response, by a "pillar of the pen community" (whatever that means - as far as I know, he's a businessman who makes money from the pen community).

 

Now I feel angry and guilty.

 

Angry because he was silenced and told to apologize.

Guilty, because the same pillar ruined two nibs of mine and I kept quiet (along with a lot of other people, it turns out). Perhaps if I had come forward at the time, the more recent victims would not have had to suffer.

 

The second someone runs a business and charges for his or her work, publicizes his or her services for charge, etc. he or she also has to bear the responsibility of being told off in public if something goes wrong.

 

It is completely inappropriate and oppressive to hush that stuff up. The result is more shoddy work, and more angry members.

 

We expect members to act decorously. How do we expect these tradespeople to act? Imperiously?

[nkk]

I am not totally sure this belongs in this forum, but whatever.

 

I agree with you, however I also see FPN's side of the argument. I think something like a ratings forum would be good. Each member or business that frequents FPN gets a thread. You are allowed to politely post experiences there, and only there. No discussion is allowed. That way, it is a reference, and not an accusation slinging contest. If person X stole my money, I can say "Person X took payment and never sent the goods" and that is the end of it. None of me calling them a thief, and I can always edit it if the situation is resolved. That seems fair to me, with the normal FPN is not responsible disclaimer.

 

-Nkk

[QM2]

I suspect the problem is, that people have trouble posting critical comments while maintaining a polite tone. Why was the thread you mention shut down? - because the original post was critical, or because the post was rude? We will never know, because it was both of those things. In fact, as far as I remember, I cannot think of a single post on this subject that simply described a negative experience calmly and politely, without also being rude or inflamatory.

 

Your post too can be construed as inflamatory, which in turn, may cause this thread to be shut down. If you are interested in generating a useful discussion on the question you asked, consider rephrasing it in a calmer and more neutral manner before the topic is removed.

[Silvermink]

I think the thread was shut down because it was rude, not because it was negative. It was worded in an extremely-inflammatory way. I think honest, thoughtful negative reviews have their place, but angry, profane rants do not.

[Glenn-SC]

It is completely inappropriate and oppressive to hush that stuff up. The result is more shoddy work, and more angry members.

 

I agree with you, and there needs to be a method of disclosure and response.

[eric.zamir]

 

Your post too can be construed as inflamatory, which in turn, may cause this thread to be shut down. If you are interested in generating a useful discussion on the question you asked, consider rephrasing it in a calmer and more neutral manner before the topic is removed.

 

My post can be construed as inflammatory? Why? Because it's not nicey nicey? Well, it's not a neutral post. I am angry, not neutral! What's neutral about being angry because there is no way to report shoddy work using honest, from-the-heart language without being censored? That's not inflammatory! Inflammatory is cursing, insults, etc.

 

In any event, the post suggesting a permanent complaint ventilation forum/thread is not a bad idea. All the different names can be listed there, and people can report their experiences, for better or for worse, in polite language, of course.

[eric.zamir]

I am not totally sure this belongs in this forum, but whatever.

 

I agree with you, however I also see FPN's side of the argument. I think something like a ratings forum would be good. Each member or business that frequents FPN gets a thread. You are allowed to politely post experiences there, and only there. No discussion is allowed. That way, it is a reference, and not an accusation slinging contest. If person X stole my money, I can say "Person X took payment and never sent the goods" and that is the end of it. None of me calling them a thief, and I can always edit it if the situation is resolved. That seems fair to me, with the normal FPN is not responsible disclaimer.

 

-Nkk

Your idea is excellent!

Eric

[sirksael]

I agree to some extent, but we have to take into account that no one is perfect. If someone feels that a paid service was not satisfactory, the seller or craftsman has to have the chance to discuss this with the client in private and they have to try to resolve their issues in private, before people start posting on the internet.

There are so many websites/forums with bad experiences on ANY brand. Many posts are made before a possible solution was discussed; I must admit that I have been guilty of this once or twice as well, in a moment of anger, but the situation was always resolved very amiably.

There is always the possibility that the goods or services were as described, but the client's expectations were different. Perhaps the seller's description was inadequate, perhaps the buyer did not express his wishes sufficiently clearly, who knows?

Only after all private means of resolution are exhausted and the seller refuses to budge, should posts to such an extent be allowed. And we as a community should carefully guard that such posts are objective and calm, so that everyone can form their own opinion.

[Pfhorrest]

I would like to know who exactly is this pillar.

[soloworx]

In my opinion, the thread starter has expressed his indignation as calmly and as circumspect a manner as possible. I sincerely hope the moderators do not hush him or bury the thread. He has as much a right to express his opinion as a member in good standing as the object of the discourse. In like vein, the other member he is referring to, or his customers who have been happy with his work, have the same right to defend him, hopefully in the same thoughtful and civil way.

[QM2]

My post can be construed as inflammatory? Why?

I am speaking not from the point of view of my own judgment, but from my experience of what is typically considered "inflammatory", and consequently removed, on FPN. I think the content of your post is entirely valid (not as applied to any specific person, but in general), and personally I would like critical threads to exist. But sadly, they probably will not exist, because of how laden they tend to be with negative emotion.

 

It is entirely possible, in my view, to express dissatisfaction, and even anger, with a seller or service provider, in a neutral tone. Here is an example:

 

"A month ago I bought a pen from Anna Fountana, who came highly recommended. When I brought the pen home, I discovered that the pen developed cracks. This was distressing. I contacted Ms. Fountana and informed her of the situation. Unfortunately, she was not willing to provide service or an exchange despite the money back policy advertised on her website. I am sorry to say that I did not have a good experience with the seller Anna Fountana and I will be staring a paypal dispute. "

 

There. Non abusive, neutral language. Yet the extent of the narrator's dissatisfaction is expressed.

 

I wonder if the threads would still be shut down if the people complaining phrased their experiences in this manner. Maybe the mods could comment on that; I am genuinely curious.

[dandelion]

I have no handy solution, but I do think it is a problem that it is so hard to find nuanced information about the "big names". I think, like QM2 and Silvermink, for instance, that there is a place for polite and nuanced constructive critique. If I am going to send away a pen, wait for a long time to get it back and pay quite a lot for nib customization/repair/etc I'd be glad to find more than praise like "s/he is a magician" etc. My experiences of the various pen experts out there is not very broad. I haven't had any real bad experiences, but I was surprised by (I am actually a very polite customer) the rather mediocre service and attitude provided by one of them. Not bad, but it felt like this person was very overrated. The service was within the persons field (a very basic repair) and yet it wasn't fixed properly when I got the pen back and I had to send the pen away again, which was very frustrating. I tried the person for another job as well to get a fair picture, but it was still not as good as I had expected from a person with such a reputation. There is a saying about football players that you are not better than your worst day and the same goes for pen experts.

 

I know that every one has bad days, but if one belongs to these well reputed pen fixers/nib meisters etc I expect the "bad days" to be very few and as a potential customer I would like to know if the quality of the work of someone often varies when I make a decision on where to send my pen for repair. The more reputed the pen expert is the more various services costs, and therefore I'd be happy to get nuanced information about the standard of their work and if they are worth the premium and waiting time. It would be a good thing to get nuanced "reviews" of the different pen experts quality and it could be harboured in Market Watch. I don't know if it is feasible, but I'd be happy if it was.

[dandelion]

My post can be construed as inflammatory? Why?

I am speaking not from the point of view of my own judgment, but from my experience of what is typically considered "inflammatory", and consequently removed, on FPN. I think the content of your post is entirely valid (not as applied to any specific person, but in general), and personally I would like critical threads to exist. But sadly, they probably will not exist, because of how laden they tend to be with negative emotion.

 

It is entirely possible, in my view, to express dissatisfaction, and even anger, with a seller or service provider, in a neutral tone. Here is an example:

 

"A month ago I bought a pen from Anna Fountana, who came highly recommended. When I brought the pen home, I discovered that the pen developed cracks. This was distressing. I contacted Ms. Fountana and informed her of the situation. Unfortunately, she was not willing to provide service or an exchange despite the money back policy advertised on her website. I am sorry to say that I did not have a good experience with the seller Anna Fountana and I will be staring a paypal dispute. "

 

There. Non abusive, neutral language. Yet the extent of the narrator's dissatisfaction is expressed.

 

I wonder if the threads would still be shut down if the people complaining phrased their experiences in this manner. Maybe the mods could comment on that; I am genuinely curious.

 

Very good example, QM2!

[hari317]

In my opinion, the thread starter has expressed his indignation as calmly and as circumspect a manner as possible. I sincerely hope the moderators do not hush him or bury the thread. He has as much a right to express his opinion as a member in good standing as the object of the discourse.

 

I completely agree.

[eric.zamir]

I belong to other forums - bike forums, espresso machine forums. It is perfectly acceptable to discuss manufactureres, resellers, repair services, FOR BETTER OR FOR WORSE.

 

Once you put yourself out there for hire, you also subject yourself to the public judgment of the marketplace. That's the American Way!!!

 

I agree people should be polite. I also agree that people have bad days and make mistakes.

Things get nasty when the provider refuses to make it right.

 

When a service provider, be it a nibmeister, a binde-maker, a penseller, or other, does shoddy work, or doesn't do the work, THEN disappears or fails to make it right, or has a haughty "it-can't-be-my-fault-it-must-be-yours" attitude, then we humble members have the right to say "hey everyone - caveat emptor" - and the rest of us have the right to know about that for future reference.

 

There are so many really good, really honest people out there, but when something isn't right, and it keeps happening, we should know.

 

That having been said, I agree with the notion of a "supplier ratings and commentary" forum, with rules as to decorum, but with the absolute right to express a low rating, and the reasons therefor. It could be divided into areas with separate ratings - speed, packing, quality of work, after-sales service, etc.

[greggy]

eric, i agree with you. in today's financial situation,it's a dog eat dog world out there.

i am one of the first people to complain if something is not right with a product or service.

the touble with people nowadays is, they just sit back and say nothing.

i also am a member of different forums, mainly woodworking ones. and if anyone is not happy with a certain vendor, they will say.

[Carrie]

Please note that the previous topic was removed because of its inflamatory nature and the fact that it is bad ettiquette to reveal the contents of a personal e-mail in the way that the original poster of the removed topic chose to do. I'll leave this topic open for now, but it is treading close to the line.

 

Carrie - Moderator

 

 

[eric.zamir]

Please note that the previous topic was removed because of its inflamatory nature and the fact that it is bad ettiquette to reveal the contents of a personal e-mail in the way that the original poster of the removed topic chose to do. I'll leave this topic open for now, but it is treading close to the line.

 

Carrie - Moderator

 

Carrie, Hi:

First of all, I have revealed nothing, and I encourage you to remove any post that has personal references in it to any particular individual or business.

How is it treading close to the line (just so we'll know what the line is)?

And it's "inflammatory" and "etiquette"... sorry, I can't help myself!

It is my hope that FPN management will take to heart the comments and suggestions in this thread. Having a forum or sub-forum devoted to reviews of work done, services performed and other issues related to the sale, repair and modification of pens, would be a valuable resource for members. Furthermore, it would encourage providers of those goods and services to do their very best.

Eric

[varmas]

Dear Eric,

what you have expressed makes perfect sense. There have been posts (and there will certainly be more in future) asking for pen meister recommendations.

 

Imagine recommending someone and the work is less than desirable. We all have off days agreed but to acknowledge and put right the problem is the mark of a true craftsman.

 

Pen lovers look to each other for support and help. Once that erodes we are down a very slippery slope.

 

A pen is a pen but the comradeship is priceless.

 

 

 

Stay well,

Solomon

[ANM]

Ebay's rating system is certainly flawed but perhaps something like that could be established, perhaps in the professional services thread. I have notices others mention their less than expected service a couple of times and other members responded with an attitude of 'how dare you? this person is highly thought of by other" It also squelches the desire to mention doubts about work done by others.