President Polk's Pen

[kamakura-pens]

I found a little time to add something to the President's Pens on my site. Please check out:

 

http://www.kamakurapens.com/Presidents/Pre..._Polk_Pens.html

 

Any ideas what he may be using? The image dates to 1849. Which limits the field considerably. Probably some kind of Ornate Dip pen, but I have never seen one like that before.

 

Stay well, guys.

 

RD

[Elaine]

I sure don't know, but is one BIG pen!

 

Elaine

[Maja]

I'm not a historian (far from it) but there is a daguerreotype of Polk and his cabinet on the official White House webpage here:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/photoess...ingroom/06.html

[Maja]

I see what you mean, Rob...That image of Polk & his cabinet, as well as a couple of other images I found (see links below) have a slightly blurry quality to them (caused by their subjects' slight movements, I would assume)

 

Two other photographs of President Polk:

http://pips.psu.edu/main.html (his only formal Presidential photograph...click on image to enlarge)

http://pbsvideodb.pbs.org/resources/usmexw...ios/bio_06.html (with First Lady Sarah Polk)

 

(PS. I am not sure who is who in the Pres. Polk & his Cabinet photo, but one website --jamespolk.com-- says that Sec. of State James Buchanan is the one who is missing... )

Edited February 28, 2005 by Maja

[Gerry]

Well, after seeing all the pictures you referenced Maja, it seems Polk is the third seated from the left.

 

Gerry

[Gerry]

And, I might add - in the photo of Sarah and James Polk, James sure has a lot of similarity to the person in the photo that started this whole discussion...

 

Just my .02

 

Gerry

[Guest Denis Richard]

True, there are some similarities. But taking some measurements, one can see that the first photograph is not compatible with the other potraits. For example, the lower lip/upper lip ratio of Polk is ~ 1.625 in the last two pics posted by Maja, while the unknown in Ron's pic has a ratio of 1.875.

 

You'll notice also that the formal portrait (from Maja) shows a person with a high, receeding hairline and thining hair, older than in Ron's pic. But the clothing style remains the same than in pictures where he looks much younger than our unidentified mistery man. Hence, hid style did not seem to have changed, and he should then be dressed in the same fashion in the very first pic that started the thread.

Edited March 1, 2005 by Denis Richard

[wimg]

Hi Ron, Denis, Rob, Gerry, Maja and Elaine

 

I agree with Rob and Denis here. The biggest give away is the posture of the people. Prior to negative films, pictures of people were out of necessity very stiff affairs, due to the clamps, and really very, very long exposures (several minutes and more).

 

The photograph shown by Ron was clearly a shot produced with a negative, just because of that. No way you could hold a pen like that, sit half turned and inclined for ten minutes or so, not even clamped. That type of picture dates from the earliest 20th century at least, just because of this alone.

 

BTW, the pen looks like a stylograph to me...

 

HTH,

Kind regards,

Wim

Mad Dutchman and former photo hobbyist

[kamakura-pens]

Hey Guys,

 

I am certainly not trying to pull anyone's leg, but perhaps someone is pulling mine. A librarian friend of mine at the LOC sent me this image in the mail with the information. Perhaps I misunderstood her mail, or she misread the file names or dates. I'll write her back and see if we can clear this up.

 

Thanks guys

 

RD

[Gerry]

Please do Ron. I for one, am anxiously awaiting the result of your inquiry.

 

We seem to have discovered a Sherlock Holmes facet to pen collecting personalities.

 

Gerry

[rhr]

But taking some measurements, one can see that the first photograph is not compatible with the other portraits. For example, the lower lip/upper lip ratio of Polk is ~1.625 in the last two pics posted by Maja, while the unknown in Ron's pic has a ratio of 1.875.

Sorry, Denis, but I think it's too early to be making lip ratio measurements. We don't know how old he was in all of these photos, only one. In older years and with missing teeth, a person's lip ratio would shrink, and with poorly-made, ill-fitting dentures, the ratio might expand. Even with all his teeth, he may have been holding them firmly together in some of the shots, and in others, he may have lowered his jaw, leaving a slight space between uppers and lowers. And what about the distortions of tilt and angle due to the pose of the subject and the camera placement? No, I think we should wait for confirmation from the archivists at the LOC.

 

Ron, you've been a very naughty boy, posting the picture without citing the source in the first place. You've left Rob, and the rest of us, with nothing else to do but blunder around guessing.

 

George.

 

:ph34r:

Edited March 1, 2005 by rhr

[Guest Denis Richard]

I would not say that's a scientifically valid measurement but of the picture presented as being positively Polk, one is clearly of a younger man and one of an older man that the picture we are wondering about. In those two, that ratio is the same.

 

In my opinion, that man does not look like the Polk of the other pics. The lip thingy is just to try to quantify that. The eyes are the biggest clue to me. Look how Polk's look seem so "washed" and empty, while on Ron's pic I see great depth in that look.

 

But we're far away into subjectivity now...

 

Denis.

[Maja]

MYSTERY SOLVED! (I think )

 

Check out this page and click on the link to the photo of FRANK LYON POLK(1871 - 1943) here: http://www.library.yale.edu/un/house/ill_list.htm

 

Rob mentioned a Frank L. Polk in his first post---Bravo, Rob!---so I Googled his name, and found that picture. This particular Polk was Under Secretary of State (and then acting Sec. of State) in President Wilson's cabinet, and he certainly looks like the same person on Dr. Dutcher's website...

 

He held the offices above from 1919-1920, so if the photo was from his Cabinet years, at least it narrows down what pen he was not using (ie. something invented after 1920 (edit: this should say *before* 1920!)....

Edited April 2, 2005 by Maja

[rhr]

I'm not a historian (far from it), but...

But you've definitely earned your ninja archivist's badge tonight, Maya, you and Rob and Denis as well. The three of you may have been unscientific about "the lip thingy" and your photographic "leg-pulling", but you've proven that a substantial portion of archival research is highly intuitive.

 

I hope the LOC has the correct description of the photograph, and it's just a mistake on the part of Ron's hasty librarian friend, because otherwise the three of you will have the distinct pleasure and privilege of correcting them and saying, "Well, the book is WRONG".

 

Way to go, to your whole Sherlock Holmes archivist's collective,

 

George.

 

:ph34r:

[Keith with a capital K]

I was thinking, like Wim, that the pen appears to be a stylograph.

 

Kudos to Maja for solving this little mystery.

[rhr]

I just looked at Ron's photo again and "blew up" the region with the pen, and it certainly

looks like a fountain pen with a nibbed section, rather than a stylograph. The tip really looks

like a nib, despite the blurry image.

 

As for the so-called slip-on clip, which one exactly do you mean, Rob? ;~)

 

George.

 

:ph34r:

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v71/rhrpen/clips.jpg

Edited March 2, 2005 by rhr

[Maja]

What's that Bic clip doing there, George?

But seriously, that's a nice collection of slip-on clips. I have a clip on my Rexall eyedropper that looks exactly like the one in the extreme lower right hand corner.

 

Thanks for the compliments everyone. It was actually quite fun learning a little bit about the 11th President of the United States (James Polk). While doing so, I learned a bit more about the daguerreotype photographic process. Quite frankly, it gives me the creeps! Those neck clamps that (living) subjects used to keep still, the photos of people's dead relatives.... yikes!! Still, it's a part of history....pen-related or otherwise

[rhr]

And last of all, take a look at this image from the LOC.

 

It's described as "Frank L. Polk, half-length portrait, seated at desk, facing left, holding pen", c.1913, LC-USZ62-123266

 

To find it on this LOC website, do a search for "frank polk", and click on item #2.

 

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pp/pphome.html.

 

There are also links to two more detailed versions of the pic, one a 79K JPEG, and the other a 19.7M TIFF, which can be viewed by clicking on the thumbnail image. You can even make out the nib in the tiff version.

 

In an earlier version of this message I posted the URLs for the images, but they were linked through a temporary search that timed out, so I removed the dead links.

 

There, that should settle it.

 

George.

 

:ph34r:

Edited March 2, 2005 by rhr