Baby Powder

[ZeissIkon]

One reason I've heard over and over, in many contexts besides pens, is a (slightly paranoid) opinion that the experts have a vested interest in forcing the "little guy" to buy something he doesn't already have on hand or has to go out of his way to get.

I'll address this point from my own perspective.

 

I have a vested interest in not destroying pens. I might someday be on the purchasing end of a deal involving one of J. Random Collector's pens, and I'd much prefer that the pen be in as good condition as possible. Every collector in the world has exactly the same vested interest in promulgating proper repair techniques.

 

I also have a "spiritual" interest, if you will, in that even if I'm never ever going to come within 12,000 miles of a given pen, I'd rather that said pen not be destroyed because it's a pen, a historical artifact, an object that means something to someone.

 

I understand -- I was just pointing out where people (not just on this subject) commonly come to discount the opinions of experts. For whatever it's worth, I agree with you, on both counts. Even a user-grade pen, of value only for how well it writes and of no historical significance whatever, ought not to be destroyed by either ignorance or stubbornness if it's avoidable.

[FarmBoy]

All this talk about finding a substitute for Talc has me confused. For buck-fifty you can get what would amount to a life time supply from Tryphon. For a ten-spot you can get enough for an entire pen club's life time at Woodbin. I mean you got to order sacs, why not grab a little talc too.

 

End rant.

 

Todd

[gross]

Not that I've ever tried it but would chalk for a blackboard work?

Chalk is hygroscopic and abrasive. You be the judge.

 

The thing that befuddles the livin' bejeebers out of me is why some people absolutely INSIST on finding some alternative product when the recommended one is so cheap and easy to find. (If I read *one more* post saying to use clear fingernail polish <instead of shellac> on a pen I think me bleedin' head will explode...) There are probably few souls in the civilized world that don't live near someplace with billard tables where they could procure some pure talc for FREE just for the asking.

 

Down here in the South, we call it "fixin' sumpin' that ain't broke..."

 

Bruce in Ocala, FL

 

 

I am the one who suggested using fingernail polish in place of the shellac: "to save a couple of dollars you might use some clear (I don't guess it has to be clear) fingernail polish instead of buying the shellac." I had been given this advice many times and am guilty of passing it on as often.

 

"If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."--Anatole France. I am guilty of being one of the fifty million in this case.

 

It is now very clear that this is not an acceptable substitution. I apologize and hope that I have not led someone to ruin their pen or caused any heads to explode.

[OcalaFlGuy]

Angh, no worries there Gross, my heads swole up pretty good, eye bulgin' out some but it'll be ok tomorrow.

 

Hey man, I always try and remember;

 

We're ALL ignorant.

 

 

Just on different subjects.

 

 

Bruce in Ocala, FL

[NORTON]

Well, based on the strong convictions I've read in these posts, we must have some chemical engineers in our mix. So, what compound is used to make the black rubber-like sacks and why does it have such an adverse reaction to baby powder? Several garden-variety elastomers, Buna for example, will easily handle exposure to oil. A little baby powder would be no problem for this material, so what exactly is the black ink sacs material?

 

Jason

[FarmBoy]

Well, based on the strong convictions I've read in these posts, we must have some chemical engineers in our mix. So, what compound is used to make the black rubber-like sacks and why does it have such an adverse reaction to baby powder? Several garden-variety elastomers, Buna for example, will easily handle exposure to oil. A little baby powder would be no problem for this material, so what exactly is the black ink sacs material?

 

Jason

Baby powder is often formulated with a high percentage of corn starch along with perfumes. Pure talc is hydrated magnesium silicate and nothing else. Mg3Si4O10(OH)2 is inert, things will eat corn starch. By things, think mold, fungus, bugs, etc. As the things digest the edible starch, there will be byproducts that may or may not be good for the internals of the pen. Corn starch is also hygroscopic and as such can get gooey. The object of the talc is to lubricate the sac so that the internals of the pen do not catch on the rubber as easily and to provide some measure of insulation from the heat generated while holding the pen. (For fun put a tight fitting sac in a pen with no talc then hold the pen as if writing in your had. Often on the thinner barreled pens the ink will begin to drip out from the pressure generated by the heat of your hand. Talc helps to prevent this.)

 

Most of the pen sacs now in use come from the Pen Sac Company and are reported as being made from a proprietary formulation of latex.

 

Hope that helps

[Lloyd]

Many baby powders are nothing more than talc and perfume. E.g., Johnson & Johnson Baby Powder. There is no corn starch in this industry leader (not to say that some other brands do not contain corn starch).

 

 

[Richard]

Many baby powders are nothing more than talc and perfume. E.g., Johnson & Johnson Baby Powder. There is no corn starch in this industry leader (not to say that some other brands do not contain corn starch).

The perfume comes in the form of an essential oil. Oils eat latex sacs. Your pen, your sac, your repair charge...

[Ron Z]

This discussion also has me wondering about the feasability of using our beloved 100% silicone grease for this purpose. We already know it's safe for rubber products and all the other materials from which our pens are made ...

 

NO.

 

Seriously, I've seen the results, and have repaired pens where the sacs and/or diaphragms that have been lubricated with silicone grease. I don't like to handle them, nor do I like cleaning up the mess. The surface of the diaphragms will ball up, and then will bind, and you'll have to repair the vac filler again. You're much better off with a dry lubricant such as talc.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Ron Z

[Lloyd]

Many baby powders are nothing more than talc and perfume. E.g., Johnson & Johnson Baby Powder. There is no corn starch in this industry leader (not to say that some other brands do not contain corn starch).

The perfume comes in the form of an essential oil. Oils eat latex sacs. Your pen, your sac, your repair charge...

 

Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to defend the use of baby powder in lieu of pure talc. I was just pointing out that most quality babypowders don't include corn starch.

[ZeissIkon]

Most of the pen sacs now in use come from the Pen Sac Company and are reported as being made from a proprietary formulation of latex.

 

And that's the catch. Yes, Buna and Nitrile will handled exposure to oil (though even nitrile gloves will weaken with heavy exposure -- I know, I wear them at work, and even if I don't snag them, they fail, apparently from grease exposure, in a couple hours about half the time). Natural latex, however, will lose elasticity, stretch (without recovery) and lose so much strength that it fails of its own weight, with even short exposure to petroleum oils or solvents, vegetable oils, even skin oils (this is why you're warned not to use any kind of oil-based lubricant with condoms, as well as against reusing them).

 

Given that sacs are made of latex, it's quite reasonable to assume that any kind of oil will be bad for them. Even silicone grease, which contains no petroleum oils as such, contains substances similar to oils: polydimethylsiloxane has the same molecular structure as a branched alkane hydrocarbon, but with silicon replacing some of the carbon atoms, and I'd be surprised if it was significantly better for natural latex than, say, petroleum jelly (the carbons in a hydrocarbon aren't what interact with rubber; it's the hydrogens, which are just as present in silicone oil as in, say, naphtha). The o-rings that it's commonly used to lubricate in piston fillers and eyedropper pens are usually a mix of Buna and Nitrile, and can take even straight petroleum grease; we use silicone grease for pen applications because it won't react with ink the way petroleum products can.

 

And no, I'm not any kind of chemical engineer, just a geek with a good memory...

[viclip]

For those who cannot or prefer not to make purchases on-line, another potential source of talcum powder is a well-stocked automotive supply store. It's used when fabricating custom-length spark plug wire assemblies, to lubricate the silicone wire while struggling to get it through the hole in the corresponding plug boot. These are friction-fit assemblies of rubber &/or silicone compounds, literally entailing a wrestling match to snake the wire into the boot hence the need for a safe lubricant; obviously for spark plug assembly purposes one wouldn't want to use anything that would damage the materials let alone attract dust &/or moisture (which in the engine bay context causes electrical short-circuiting in addition to conductor corrosion).

[Chris]

Just a quick word on whether the "baby powder" contains talc or corn startch - it will tell you on the label (certainly in the EU) everything in the product and if there is corn starch it will say 'zea maize' and if it is talc it will say 'talc'. There may/will also be 'parfum' and I make no comment on whether this is desirable.

 

Chris

[NORTON]

This is certainly an interesting subject and many repliers appear to be passionate about using pure Talc.

 

Notably, I just recently ordered Talc from Wood Bin (10 USD) for use on my pen sacs. However, I'm not convinced that using a quality baby powder instead of talc would produce a measurable detrimental effect on an ink sac. My guess is that some inks may be worse than baby powder in terms of containing stuff that is harmful to latex sacs.

[OcalaFlGuy]

Tryphon's price for pure talc is $1.50. I can't imagine the shipped price for it anywhere in the world exceeding $5.

 

As has been noted, billard (snooker) talc is also pure talc and enough to do a few sacs with could easily be sourced for FREE in most any country in the world.

 

It is certainly your prerogative to dust the sacs in your own pens with any material you see fit to. If's you alone then that will have to deal with any difficulties incurred for using a less than optimal product.

 

The "probolem" comes when YOUR pens somehow, sometime find their ways to new owners. Unless they are duly informed as to exactly how work was done on those pens, they have every right to assume the work was done correctly in a manner and with materials that are accepted as being correct for the purpose.

 

Generally, I NEVER let go of ANY of my pesonal pens. Still, there has been one instance lately when a friend of mine DID end up getting a pen of mine I had done that I'd not have thought would ever change hands. Of course, they don't have to worry about that pen, any Esterbrook I do, I do as if it were going to be my own pen and I don't have a higher standard to apply to the work than that.

 

Regardless of how strongly you feel that your pens with sacs in them dusted with any less than optimal product will never see hands other than your own, that may end up not being the case.

 

There are numerous examples where pen repairmen who are considered the best of the best have clearly stated that pure talc is the only real product to dust sacs with (even the one possible substitute, graphite is noted to be a lessor choice). These are men that do pen repair for a living and whos reputation and livelyhood is on the line with every pen they send back to it's owner. If there were other products just as good or just as procurable or just as cheap that worked just as well, you can bet they'd have no problem recommending those. They don't because there isn't.

 

And with that, I do hereby nominate, "what can I dust my sacs with other than pure talc" to be one of the eternal threads that will never die...

 

There truly does appear to always be at least one more person who absolutely HAS TO fix something that isn't broke. (And that isn't specfically aimed at the prior poster either...)

 

Bruce in Ocala, FL

[nigelg]

I can't see the point of spoiling the ship for a ha'porth of tar as the old saying goes. Surely for the sake of a few extra pence (or cents) we ought to use a product recommended by those who know their stuff.

As a thought, I wonder if atmospheric, ambient ozone might probably ruin latex based sacs before any talc product does particularly in lever fillers where the sac is more exposed. At work we have to remove high concentrations of ozone with activated charcoal scrubbers before it enters vacuum pumps to prevent it trashing the rubber flap valves inside.

Nigel

[ZeissIkon]

I can't see the point of spoiling the ship for a ha'porth of tar as the old saying goes. Surely for the sake of a few extra pence (or cents) we ought to use a product recommended by those who know their stuff.

As a thought, I wonder if atmospheric, ambient ozone might probably ruin latex based sacs before any talc product does particularly in lever fillers where the sac is more exposed. At work we have to remove high concentrations of ozone with activated charcoal scrubbers before it enters vacuum pumps to prevent it trashing the rubber flap valves inside.

Nigel

 

The high concentrations you deal with are probably thousands of times the maximum concentration the EPA or OSHA will permit humans to be exposed to, either as general air pollution or a workplace pollutant. Yes, ozone (and, much more slowly) common oxygen will destroy rubber -- but nowhere near as quickly as oil will, at least in the case of latex.

[Bustercat]

For all the trouble, why not take an automatic pencil, dump out some graphite, and grind it up between two pieces of paper?

[Richard]

For all the trouble, why not take an automatic pencil, dump out some graphite, and grind it up between two pieces of paper?

Because it's not pure graphite. It's blended with clay, and clay attracts moisture (with which it forms a sticky slurry) and is also abrasive. (Think about ceramic knife sharpening stones...) Not the best choice. In fact, not even a sensible choice.

 

Talc is obtainiable. It is not terribly expensive. It is unquestionably the best product for the job, whereas other products have downsides of more or less severity. This is not rocket science -- why do some people find it so hard? Would you pour vegetable oil into your car's engine block because it's easier to obtain and cheaper than motor oil?

[NORTON]

With each post this topic becomes more entertaining.