Cleaning fountain pens - Amonia vs. No Amonia?

[JetPens]

Does anyone know why Amonia (mixed with water) is suggested as a cleaning agent for fountain pens? We talked to an agent from Pilot Japan and they said that this can damage fountain pens and is not recommended. Yet we have also been advised by Noodlers that fountain pens can be cleaned this way.

 

What is your experience with/without Amonia?

Has anyone had their fountain pen become damaged from this method?

 

 

Thanks!

[MidnightBlue]

Both, for me, but I wouldn't try it with anything but a c/c pen. Little bit of mmonia or detergent and water,

Thanks

[itsame]

For my Lamy 2000, the care instructions explicitly state no ammonia (actually they say no detergent, but its the same thing). If there are any Lamy 2000 owners who do use ammonia, I'd be interested in hearing the effect it has on your pens.

 

 

[kavanagh]

I tend to stay away from Ammonia.

 

I always use lukewarm water and a little bit of 'shower gel' to remove excess ink and dirt without harming the inside of the pen.

[someonesdad]

It depends on the materials the pen was made with. Since manufacturers don't give you a list of the materials in contact with the cleaning solution, you have to follow their advice or experiment with the possible risk of damaging the pen. Personally, I use cheap pens, so if an ammonia solution hurt the pen, I'd just toss it out. But I feel the key is to not need the ammonia in the first place. This means flushing your pens to keep them clean.

 

I've used weak ammonia solutions to clean 50-60 year old and newer pens and I've had no problems.

[ZeissIkon]

I've seen ammonia solutions recommended only for internal cleaning -- given the range of pH and components in inks, any pen that can't take a weak ammonia solution on parts intended to touch ink is probably not going to last long in actual use unless you use only Private Reserve, Noodler's (and no BSB), Diamine, or J. Herbin inks.

 

I certainly wouldn't suggest cleaning the exterior of a pen with ammonia unless it's either all metal or a resin known to be impervious (acrylic, for instance).

[Ray-Vigo]

I use plain water for most applications. Only on the most stubborn to clean pens and inks do I resort to ammonia solution.

 

The best example is that you really don't need ammonia solution to clean a simple lever fill that you've been using Waterman Blue-Black in. For tougher inks (Aurora Black for example), I do use ammonia solution when changing inks or when cleaning the pen to store. If I plan on simply refilling the pen with the same ink soon, I just do a plain water flush.

[sumgaikid]

I stay away from using ammonia when cleaning a pen that I've just received in the mail.

When I clean a pen inside and out,I use cold water and a very little bit of Dawn detergent.

I then flush the pen with cold water. If there is any residue or ink left(that was in the barrel),

I'll repeat the process until the pen is as clean as it's going to get. My concern is that the a-

mmonia will not only possibly craze the celluloid,but dry out the ebonite(rubber)feed and

make it fragile.

 

John

[Vintagepens]

An ammonia solution will cut through old dried ink like nothing else. For the pen repairman, it is an essential tool. For the ordinary pen user, however, it is seldom necessary. I believe that many modern pen companies' warnings about both ammonia solutions and detergents stem from a prudent conservatism. Regular usage of such cleansers will prematurely remove seal lubricants from piston-fillers, and though ordinary dishwashing liquids should pose no threat to cartridge pens, one never knows what the general public will include under the label of "detergents". I could easily see ordinary pen users trying anything from Windex and 409 (both highly destructive to plastics) to Cascade or Tide with Bleach.

 

Incidentally, while ammonia will fade hard rubber superficially where that surface has been exposed to light, it will not weaken the underlying material.

 

If you do use ammonia solutions, I recommend very short applications. Most often, all that is needed is a few seconds of scrubbing, or perhaps a minute or two in the ultrasonic. Long soaks are where problems are likely to arise.

 

[WendyNC]

If a pen is sufficiently clogged with dried ink that the flow is significantly compromised, I think it's in the "nothing to lose" department. I've been glad to know about the ammonia trick with several older pens I've purchased. However, once the old gunk was gone, I've not had to resort to it and find that lukewarm water does the job just fine. For pen-cleaning purposes, I define lukewarm as the temperature at which I can't really feel the water temperature when I run it over my arm (my hands tolerating much higher temperatures).

[JetPens]

Thanks everyone for your input! Yes, as some of you suggested Pilot Japan also said that soaking the nib in lukewarm water overnight and then flushing it out in the morning should be sufficient. Now I understand that using ammonia on a regular basis could be damaging to certain fountain pen, but can be used in rare circumstances. It's probably best to avoid recommending it unless absolutely necessary. Thanks!

 

(It's a good subject, we will write an article about it in the future for our PenPedia page.)

 

 

[dnr]

For my Lamy 2000, the care instructions explicitly state no ammonia (actually they say no detergent, but its the same thing). If there are any Lamy 2000 owners who do use ammonia, I'd be interested in hearing the effect it has on your pens.

 

 

Sorry, I keep trying to ignore this, but I can't. Ammonia is very different from detergent. Detergent is a very broad term. Ammonia is alkaline where as soap can differ based on its requirement.

 

I have used diluted ammonia on a variety of pens with great success -- so far. Your mileage may vary. The problem with using some detergents is that is may take a long time to wash away the surfactants.

 

Best o' luck and sorry for the rant.

 

dnr

 

[Kelly G]

If I were you, I would pay attention to David (Vintagepens); he knows of what he speaks.

[Mimsey]

An ammonia solution will cut through old dried ink like nothing else. For the pen repairman, it is an essential tool. For the ordinary pen user, however, it is seldom necessary. I believe that many modern pen companies' warnings about both ammonia solutions and detergents stem from a prudent conservatism. Regular usage of such cleansers will prematurely remove seal lubricants from piston-fillers, and though ordinary dishwashing liquids should pose no threat to cartridge pens, one never knows what the general public will include under the label of "detergents". I could easily see ordinary pen users trying anything from Windex and 409 (both highly destructive to plastics) to Cascade or Tide with Bleach.

 

Incidentally, while ammonia will fade hard rubber superficially where that surface has been exposed to light, it will not weaken the underlying material.

 

If you do use ammonia solutions, I recommend very short applications. Most often, all that is needed is a few seconds of scrubbing, or perhaps a minute or two in the ultrasonic. Long soaks are where problems are likely to arise.

 

Dave, thanks for the very good advice. I've got a post 1990 Pelican screw-pumper. After years of smooth writing from the first stroke and every time through the last drop of ink on anything, it quit. I pumped a 25% household ammonia/warm water solution through the pen a few times, shaking it while full. I also unscrewed the nib (who would know it unscrewed!)and rinsed everything with clear water until the pen ran clear. Now it's as good as new!

[PJohnP]

From a chemist and chemical engineer's perspective, one of the key elements in any discussion of chemical attack on materials is concentration, and then arising from that discussion, duration of exposure.

 

A saturated ammonia solution (highest possible concentration) in water is relatively aggressive, and can have effects on polymers and metals both, especially if the duration of exposure is lengthy. However, a low concentration of ammonia will have drastically reduced effects if any for the same duration. By controlling concentration and duration of exposure carefully, the use of ammonia can be advantageous for cleaning.

 

Household ammonia is a relatively strong concentration, if not maximum, and can certainly have effects on metals and polymers with lengthy exposure periods. David Nishimura has quite succinctly addressed this by advocating short periods of exposure. Reducing the concentration by some reasonable factor, say, 10:1 would allow for a somewhat longer exposure without likely deleterious effects. But that doesn't mean soaking the components in dilute ammonia for several days !

 

I can easily understand why manufacturers who have product warranty issues recommend against the use of ammonia completely, as some consumer might well soak a pen in household strength ammonia for a week and find some significant deterioration in the pen. Such "repairs" are almost like a car owner removing pine sap from the body with a bucket of MEK and sandpaper - it would work just dandily with respect to removing the sap, but it's probably "non-ideal" for the car paint job...

 

As a corollary, consider that many people clean pens with tepid/warmish water, but not boiling hot water. Why ? Too much heat damages the pen, where a moderate level of temperature allows the tepid water to dissolve dried ink. Similarly, if diluted ammonia solution is used with defined short periods of exposure (again, see David Nishimura's comments), it's probably a reasonable approach for the typical owner with some dried ink/gunk issues in their pens, but it needs to be considered with a reasonable level of thought. Like any "repair" operation, success is entirely dependent on careful and cautious planned actions, not slipping into the quickest easiest approach for expediency.

 

 

 

John P.

[OcalaFlGuy]

Or pehaps a slightly more succint example from when I was about 10 with my chemistry set doing the (actually perscribed) "Make Chlorine gas" experiment.

 

If the instructions call for just a couple drops of both Chlorox and Ammonia, no, a BUNCH more drops of each really WON'T BE "better".

 

Trust Me on this.

 

Bruce in Ocala, FL

[Ron Z]

Like any "repair" operation, success is entirely dependent on careful and cautious planned actions, not slipping into the quickest easiest approach for expediency.

 

I was very tempted to edit your post to put this in bold John, but resisted. That statement alone should be pinned, as it is one of the key things to remember when repairing pens. The posts that suggest the quickest, easiest approach because it's expedient are the ones that I find to be the most frustrating.

Edited October 2, 2009 by Ron Z

[PJohnP]

I was very tempted to edit your post to put this in bold John, but resisted. That statement alone should be pinned, as it is one of the key things to remember when repairing pens. The posts that suggest the quickest, easiest approach because it's expedient are the ones that I find to be the most frustrating.

 

Ron :

 

 

Heh. Well, in honesty, I was tempted to bold and italicise the comment...

 

I have a couple of Sheaffers that date back to the late 'thirties and early 'forties, and I can't believe that there are exceptionally effective "quick 'n dirty" approaches for repairing roughly seventy year old pens. Museum conservationists (the good ones, anyway) don't just witlessly embark on repairs that affect the essential fabric of the objects. Why should pens be particularly different ?

 

Now, anyone who wants to can take their own pens and subject them to any experiments that they want, so long as they don't complain that the experiments didn't all work out as expected. Experimentation sometimes has a high "casualty rate", but that's why it's experimentation and not "repair".

 

 

 

John P.

[J English Smith]

I use ammonia sparingly. Used it once as a 20% or so solution with water when I saw a bit of mold in my Lamy 2000 (ugh) and that seemed to solve the problem after a couple of one-hour sessions. Normally I just use water, a little dash of soap if needed, Koh-i-Noor pen cleaner 50% solution for tough clogs (I've had two 51s that needed repeated pen cleaner flushing).

[Gcouch]

I keep a bottle around the house just in case, but it is rarely used. Hot water seems to suffice most of the time. Otherwise I subscribe to the water:ammonia 10:1 ratio.