Cross Pens - What do people think?

September 13, 2009

On the other topic of Cross relocating all prodution out of the country:

I'm not happy when any company that has built it's base and reputation here in the USA then decides to relocate work out of the country these days. I feel we've been given the short and smelly end of the globalization stick. I believe that any company that outsources it's jobs should be forced to leave the US entirely. Make the CEO and his family, and all the other corporate decisionmakers, go live in whatever place where they are exploiting their cheap labor. Sure, there won't be any pesky OSHA or environmental regulations or employement laws, but odds are that they will also contend with more corruption, a lousy infrastructure, political instability, cultural differences, even worse schools and living conditions, and get to live like expats. (Most wives and kids don't like that for long...) And when that country they're in decides to nationize their industry, or their people rise up against foreign exploitation, or just steal their intellectual property, they won't have the US military or legal infrastructure to come to their rescue.

Hey, it's just bidness...

You shouldn't be able to stand with one foot in America and reap the benefits of living here while the other foot is in China, India or Viet Nam expoiting third-world cheap labor.

Matthew Bancroft

I don't mean to be rude, but I simply cannot allow this to go by without comment.

I understand your sentiment. Many people long for the "good old days".

But the fact is that Cross is the only mass producer of fine pens that chooses to keep its corporate headquarters in the US. That means the company, its CEO, and its employees pay taxes in the US. You would kick them out of the country and punish them for this decision. Does that make any sense? Presumably they moved production to China for a good reason. If you could force them to move production back to the US and they became yet another bankrupt pen maker, would that do anyone any good?

Striking closer to home, do you suggest that it is somehow unpatriotic if I choose to purchase a Cross pen made in China rather than a Hero pen made in China? How do you know they are "exploiting third-world cheap labor"? Perhaps they are paying fair wages in the country of production. Going further, would you propose large tariffs on foreign made pens to prevent me from buying them?

Surely I hope not.

Globalization is a two way street. I would challenge the notion that the US is always "given the short and smelly end of the globalization stick". Globalization means more than inexpensive goods made overseas. It also means foreign factories from Toyota producing cars in the US. Would you force them to move their factories back to Japan? Globalization, too, means foreign students in our universities. Many of them stay in the US giving us the benefit of their brainpower. Should we kick them out, make them attend school in their countries of birth? It would be our loss.

Globalization doesn't mean everyone wins. With change there are always individual winners and losers, there is some pain involved. But look how easily we purchase pens from around the world, something not so easy to do in the recent past. A fine, very old American pen company like Cross is able to survive into the 21st century because globalization allows them to remain competitive. Alas, it is too late for other great American pen companies, but I celebrate that at least Cross has been able to survive by using globalization to their advantage.

I say good luck, Cross! Here's to another 150 years as a premier American pen company.

September 19, 2009

Hi all,

So far, Cross is at the very high end for customer service and support. They were willing to trade nibs on my Townsends until I was happy, are always more than willing to answer any questions I might have (and most importantly will tell me if they don't know but will check and get back to me!) and I certainly see another Townsend in my future.

The only problem is the bleeping price! I understand it (Townsend) is a higher-end product and respect the fact they have to make a profit, but in this economy it gets more and more difficult to justify spending that much..no matter where you look it is the same. Why no deals? I know their website does have the rare sale, but alas it seems that by the time I learn of it the only products left are of colors that understandably don't sell too well. (Forget the high-paid marketers and ad people..ask pen people what they want!)

So, kudos to Cross for outstanding service, and if they are listening, offer some more incentives to us that are not rolling in dough, ok? (Look at car companies that do not 'haggle' and you see sales dropping over 50% last year alone..though I digress and that is not a topic for this forum.)

Thanks for letting me contribute/vent,

ScottT

September 20, 2009

Hi all,

So far, Cross is at the very high end for customer service and support.

The only problem is the bleeping price!

May I reply to both parts of your post?

1. Service: People constantly rave about Cross service. On the plus side, they have real people in Rhode Island who answer the phone when you call. They still offer a lifetime warranty. But on the negative side, they do charge a $10 fee to do anything with your pen, even if it is to repair a manufacturing defect. That is on top of your expense in mailing the pen (insured) back to them in the first place. I happen to have a six month old Apogee with a cap that is very, very hard to pull off. I was hoping it would loosen up with use but it has not. I called Cross and spoke with the service department. Yes, they will adjust/replace the pen so the cap works properly, but also yes, they charge a $10 fee even if it is a manufacturing defect. In fairness, I don't know what other pen companies would or would not do, and this may be a very competitive practice, but $10 to fix a manufacturing defect seems steep to me.

2. Price: I think that the Townsends are reasonably priced for what you get - a very solid pen, both in construction and performance, with a beautiful lacquered or machined finish. The new cross line, the Affinity, is much less expensive and still very well made with a high grade resin (feels much like MB "precious resin") and a classic design. I hope we see more finishes, maybe metal finishes, in the Affinity line in the future.

September 21, 2009

FWIW: My experience with Cross Customer Service has been excellent, and this has been over a period of more than 25 years, which has made me a solid Cross customer. Within this past year, I have returned two pens to Cross, which I bought over the official Cross website. The first pen, I kept more than 30 days, so I returned it and received it back in excellent condition (which cost me the shipping there and their $10.00 fee to return to me). The second pen, I returned the next day because it was obviously defective (it had all the defects that Russ mentioned in one of his reviews on the Verve). It was their Blue Verve, which I bought at their clearance price. I used their return FedEx shipping label inside the box (which cost me nothing to return). I followed up with their customer service by e-mail after returning the pen, and they called me on the phone to make sure they could solve my problem my way. I requested that they let me keep the Broad nib on the pen (which is a great nib), and I suppose they did because I received a Broad nib when they returned my pen. They then sent me a new pen in a different color (at my request) and there was not cost to me to have it shipped back. The pen now operates exactly as I expected a Cross pen to write and at no extra cost to me except time. So, IMO, if you suspect a Cross pen is defective in any way, I would simply send it back as soon as possible (within 30 days, I think). Contact their customer service by e-mail or phone and ask what the best procedure should be for you to return the pen. I probably should have contacted them for an RA number when I returned the pen using their FedEx label, but I did not and had no problems at all, just excellent service, which makes me a repeat customer (over and over again). All that has kept me from buying the Affinity on their website is I have too many Cross pens already, but on the other hand, maybe I do need one more. :-)

All the best,

Tumbleweedtoo

September 21, 2009

I have about 30 cross ballpoints. Hate them. Hate the FP. I do like their reading glasses and wallets though

September 21, 2009

I have about 30 cross ballpoints. Hate them. Hate the FP. I do like their reading glasses and wallets though

I am intrigued Leicamaster. Why did you purchase 30 Cross ballpoints if you hate them? Surely two or three would have given enough experience to form your negative viewpoint? There has to be an interesting tale here. Do tell, please.

September 21, 2009

My sarcarm detector went off

September 21, 2009

I have about 30 cross ballpoints. Hate them. Hate the FP. I do like their reading glasses and wallets though

I am intrigued Leicamaster. Why did you purchase 30 Cross ballpoints if you hate them? Surely two or three would have given enough experience to form your negative viewpoint? There has to be an interesting tale here. Do tell, please.

They were all my grandfathers pens. I like the design but I hate that its not very compatible with other ink cartridges. I dont like the cross ones. Ive tried the FP once idk if it was the model but the nib was skippy. Maybe its just personal experience. Loving the wallets though

September 22, 2009

My reponses are in Blue, below:

From

RSX,

I don't mean to be rude, but I simply cannot allow this to go by without comment.

I understand your sentiment. Many people long for the "good old days". That really oversimplifies and trivializes the real issues.But the fact is that Cross is the only mass producer of fine pens that chooses to keep its corporate headquarters in the US. That means the company, its CEO, and its employees pay taxes in the US. You would kick them out of the country and punish them for this decision. No, they will be welcome to pay US taxes on all their properties and holdings that they leave here for their return. Execs' individual tax revenues would never offset the economic an social losses from an entire factory of workers anyway. There would be a new message sent which I advocate be for all US companies... Does that make any sense? Yes, it does. It's a message about principles and social responsibility. If you can't see it now, I think you would soon enough. Wealthy capitalists and executives will never like it, because they like being the bullies on the world's playground with no teachers around. Presumably they moved production to China for a good reason. And if you were to hazard a guess, just what do you think that reason might have been? If you could force them to move production back to the US and they became yet another bankrupt pen maker, would that do anyone any good? With your hypothetical outcome, probably not, but you are assuming a lot. I owned 2 Harley Davidson motorcycles years ago, after Reagan's tarrifs against Japan saved the company from bankruptcy. Being the last American manufacturer of something can have an appeal, and provide opportunities to a company,-especially if they "up their game" in the quality department. There are plenty of price-oriented pen manufacturers out there, so if you make the best product there will always be people interested in buying it. I will not be buying a cheap fountain pen now. I want something of quality, and I'm willing to pay for it. Americans ARE loyal to American products, but only when that loyalty is earned and not abused. (Detroit execs have proven to be very slow learners with little vision, like many in US corporate structures) Perhaps Cross could just compete on quality and leave the mass-produced cheap gift-box sets to the Chinese to compete with each other about.

Striking closer to home, do you suggest that it is somehow unpatriotic if I choose to purchase a Cross pen made in China rather than a Hero pen made in China? You seem to be baiting me for an insult, - or feeling guilty. I am not a neocon so I won't impune your patriotism: It's still a free country and you are at liberty to choose who you will patronize, just as I am. I don't shop at Walmart anymore because I don't like how they do business, and friends of mine feel the same way about other companies for various reasons. It all depends on the connections you see between markets, world events, politics and social justice. I can't control you: I can only control myself. That said, I can think whatever I want about your perceptions and actions... How do you know they are "exploiting third-world cheap labor"? Perhaps they are paying fair wages in the country of production. You use a more narrow definition of "exploit" than I do. Yes, moving a job that pays a living wage in your home country to another country that does not, constitutes "exploiting" in my book (the dictionary). If they want to sell pens in China, for "chinese prices", let 'em! But they aren't, are they? It only goes one way. We keep hearing how it will go the other way, but in 30 years I have yet to see it begin to happen on any appreciable scale that helps the US economy. That's why we have a huge trade imbalance, BTW. (It's why they are starting to use shipping containers for housing in the US, because we are awash in them and they're dirt cheap: -They only come here full, they don't return.) Going further, would you propose large tariffs on foreign made pens to prevent me from buying them? Absolutely. Tariffs designed to offset the inherent unlevel playing fields that exist worldwide. You know, the one's that G.W. Bush campaigned that he would start to level for American workers 9 years ago.

Surely I hope not. You hoped wrong, and stop calling me Shirley. (Sorry, that's just a reflex! )

Globalization is a two way street. So we've all been told by capitalists and corporate economists for decades now. It's not looking that way in reality though, and if you stop to think about it for just a second, it makes total sense that it won't be for the US until the world is globally economically equal. I would challenge the notion that the US is always "given the short and smelly end of the globalization stick". Globalization means more than inexpensive goods made overseas. It also means foreign factories from Toyota producing cars in the US. I am well aware of what globalization has been sold as, professor. And you are aware of why Japanese auto companies located plants here. It helped them penetrate our market further to say it's "Made in the USA". But it's not, and we all know that in our hearts. We are(maybe "were") a huge and very lucrative market, and we've sold ourselves short by prostituting ourselves. The Japanese did what they had to do to open our markets wider for their own purposes. They are not here out of benevolence or international good will. They have used every aggressive trick known (and invented a few new ones) to capture US market shares in any product they make. They approach international business like war. (read Mushashi's "Go Rin No Sho", still a primer for execs...) Would you force them to move their factories back to Japan? Not immediataly. First, I would force them to compete on wages here in this country. Unfortunately, we have the "right to work" South that has welcomed these plants and pitted one stuggling state against another for tax welfare giveaways and undercut wages in a micro-version of economic warfare here in the US. That needs to be stopped as well (Another huge subject). Secondly, I would steal their technology,(as they stole much of theirs from us), and then send them packing by outselling them here and abroad with a superior product made in the US. Or we could start playing dirty and disregard our own intellectual property and patent laws and make knock-offs of their products, like our friends the Chinese. (It's always been a virtual blackmail situation anyway: "We're going to be making your product one way or another, so put us on your payroll (cheap) and fire your American workers" Managers loved it.) Globalization, too, means foreign students in our universities. Wow, you actually brought that issue up. My state recently nearly had a taxpayer revolt because our pride-and-joy big-10 State University system, which our tax dollars and private donations built over decades is unable to accept our own state's children because it's too full of foreign students. I'm speaking of the University of Wisconsin. When your child is an "A" student and a 3.8 GPA plus plenty of activities and community service isn't good enough to get into the state college system because it's full of Indians and Chinese students, something is wrong. Many of them stay in the US giving us the benefit of their brainpower. Yes-after taking the benefit of our education system and learning their way around our economy...they convert their student visas into work visas and take any highly skilled positions, often beginning with teaching in the Universities. US kids complain cultural differences prevent learning and communicating. Many graduates are now going back to India or wherever to start their own companies or work in new startups. Again, they're doing great, but US kids are being left behind when they need more attention than ever. Having just taught foreign students myself, I know we are being exploited in other education arenas as well, -in ways the American taxpayer will be outraged to discover. It sounds so benevolent to be the worlds "teacher", except that it's coming at the cost of our own children and our own people. Should we kick them out, make them attend school in their countries of birth? It would be our loss. No, it really wouldn't. It would allow American funded Universities to focus on American students and raise their standards in ways that work, other than direct competition with foreign students. Interaction and cultural exchange is good, but not as important as becoming proficient with the material. Americans can compete with any "people", race, nationality, or background on earth. We need to get our own back-yard in order and ratchet back on the benevolent pie-in-the-sky ideologies that don't actually work. We need to focus on our own infrastructures and well-being: in education, engery generation/distribution, transportation, health care, and make some deep social, political and economic reforms. The more fertile a land we make ourselves for economically sustainable businesses, the more successful any business,- even our manufacturing businesses, will be. If foreign companies want to come here to start a business, that's in our national interest, providing they play on a level field. For US business, especially critical manufacturing, relocating operations overseas undermines US security and stability in a way that would have been unthinkable just a few decades ago. We're not so advanced in 2009 that we should forget those basic principles, -any more than the principles of personal thrift and management that our grandparents learned in the Great Depression.

Globalization doesn't mean everyone wins. No kidding! The way it's structured now, Americans have to loose so the "developing nations" can win. Our quality of life must decline to the point that it is equal to the lowest common denominator. There will always be cheaper labor source that any American can be replaced with. If we are all dispensable, our society will crumble. No, we're not going to be retrained as genetic engineers or nanotechnologists after our jobs are outsourced. (there are plenty of those in India/China too). With change there are always individual winners and losers, there is some pain involved. (Shaking my head). Again,still more platitudes. Look around you. Take off the rose colored glasses and honestly look at what is happening. This is not just "longing for the good old days". I welcome other nations succeeding and growing and becoming equal and responsible contributing parters to the "modern world": -They can share some of the load that we have shouldered for decades as the world's policeman/nanny. They should theoretically be better neighbors as vested participants in the world economy, etc., etc. I get all that. This is about our own people (corporate executives) selling their fellow Americans out to make a fast buck, and having no accountability to all these people who are the ocean in which they swim. The Cross executives don't make Chinese wages, do they? Cross sells pens at "non-Chinese" prices, but they pay Chinese production costs. And from what I hear, they have a good CS Dept., -based in the US of course (appearances matter...) to cover their quality issues and defects (which there seem to be, judging by other responses) But look how easily we purchase pens from around the world, something not so easy to do in the recent past. I don't know why you'd say that, because I've been using various German and Japanese technical pens and instruments for 35 years, because they were the professional quality tools that my industry demanded (and there weren't any US alternatives). Now, I plan to buy a Pelikan fountain pen. If it costs more because Germans are paid better for their work, that's my choice. Like a Mercedes, it ain't cheap. But I won't buy a Mercedes made in China....even if it were sold cheaper (which it probably wouldn't be). A fine, very old American pen company like Cross is able to survive into the 21st century because globalization allows them to remain competitive. Sure, well, except that they're not really an American pen company anymore. Nice sounding Ad copy. Alas, it is too late for other great American pen companies, but I celebrate that at least Cross has been able to survive by using globalization to their advantage. You see; "using globalization to their advantage" would fit my definition of "exploiting" very well, and since it's only been to the advantage of the company execs. and shareholders', I can't really share your 'celebration' in this so-called success. They are a Chinese pen manufacturer trading on a historic US brand name with a corporate office here in the US for their executive staff.

I say good luck, Cross! Here's to another 150 years as a premier American pen company.

Well, my Townsend says, "Made in USA" and was a gift, so I'll keep it, but I won't be buying another Cross. Whether it's a Schwinn, or a Trek, or an Apple, or any of the 50% of world products made in China, I think it's important for people to bear in mind where their products are made. Misleading people with longstanding US brand names while all manufacturing is carried out abroad rubs me the wrong way. I believe it is part of our national malady which I hope to see changed.

Edited September 22, 2009 by sonadavinci

September 22, 2009

Well this is really sad. I as an Asian have always thought that America is a very patriotic country that would rather "not close down F22 Raptor bases so Americans don't lose jobs". Therefore, it doesn't make sense that much cheaper pens can't be made in America. Or I guess the CEO wants a bigger bonus???? What do you think?

I got on the political branch of this thread, and just responded to RSX about the same subject, so I won't beat a dead horse. I agree: it IS sad. America was, (and still is in many places)a patriotic country that cares about Americans and American products, but certain Americans are greedy and care more about their personal wealth than national or social responsibilities.

Of course we can make quality pens, but there isn't enough money in it to satisfy large investors' demands for fast and fat returns. The CEO bonus issue you raised hit the nail on the head also. It's greed, unchecked, and it needs to be stopped by government. No one else can do it.

Perhaps we need a serious threat that drives the US toward unification again, like in WWII. When there was a serious enemy that truly scares everyone, there is no more bickering and divisive politics. Anyone who doesn't get on board gets ostracized or run out of town, the old fashioned way. Call it mob mentality or whatever, but it got the job done. I'm sure someone claimed it was socialist too, but nobody cared to listen.

Bye the way, they did just shut down the F22 Raptor program...

September 23, 2009

I'm afraid you have really made the case for my initial point. "Many people long for the good old days." I am sorry, deeply personally sorry to say that those American manufacturing jobs are probably not coming back. I wish it was otherwise, and I wish I really knew why.

You think it is greedy capitalists that keep production out of our country? I disagree. The pen industry is a good example. Parker and Waterman belong to Sanford (Rubbermaid). Sanford is as interested as anyone in a profit. Yet they are able to manufacture in UK and France, hardly cheap third world countries, and presumably make a reasonable profit. Why they, or Cross, can't do the same in the US I don't really know. You would think they could move Parker back to the US and do as well as they do in the UK, but apparently not.

You rail against the Asian car makers and their dirty tricks, building in the right to work South. Yet GM put their Saturn plant in the South, if I remember correctly, and the brand is for sale. Toyota makes a profit and their American built cars are excellent and popular. That is not a dirty trick, it is an example of intelligent marketing, engineering and manufacturing. It is there for anyone to copy if they are interested.

The problem is not in the stars but in ourselves. I think that the problem is that Americans have become consumers and not workers. We did not become the dominant manufacturing force in the world by consumerism. There used to be an emphasis on hard work, personal sacrifice and education. I don't think I see it anymore, and that is not the fault of the Chinese, foreign students or capitalists. That is a comfortable excuse, but if we can't compete, whose fault is it? It is our own fault, a change in our culture and maybe laziness.

I would like to see the US regain its past manufacturing glory, but I don't see it anytime soon. The more Americans expect to get for free the less they'll feel they have to work for it. It makes me sad, and worried for my kids.

September 23, 2009

At the risk of dragging this out, I would like to add one more item upon reflection. I don't know why you characterize Cross as a Chinese pen company with an American office. Cross is a publically owned American corporation, paying US corporate taxes, which like many US and foreign companies, conducts manufacturing in other countries. They employ real workers, beyond executives, in job starved Rhode Island. Unlike Parker, Waterman and Mont Blanc it has remained an independent pen company, and I congratulate them for that achievement.