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Lost in the mail...what then?


OcalaFlGuy

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Obviously, the best answer is that the item be insured against that so that everyone comes out

"ok".

 

But with a $10-20 item I think alot of folks don't bother with insurance for that low of an amount.

 

Buttt, it IS still $10-20.

 

What's the best way to handle an obvious lost in the mail situation like that so that each party is less

or somewhat equally "damaged"?

 

Bruce in Ocala, FL

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Obviously, the best answer is that the item be insured against that so that everyone comes out

"ok".

 

But with a $10-20 item I think alot of folks don't bother with insurance for that low of an amount.

 

Buttt, it IS still $10-20.

 

What's the best way to handle an obvious lost in the mail situation like that so that each party is less

or somewhat equally "damaged"?

 

Bruce in Ocala, FL

 

 

Personally, I think that it is the seller's responsibility to get things to the buyer.

 

For expensive items, insurance should be mandatory and negotiated as part of the deal. Inexpensive items, the seller should provide a refund if the item does not arrive.

 

Just my $0.02...

 

 

--

Doc

 

Have Camera....Will Travel....Wire SigSauerFan AT Hotmail DOT com

Inveterate trader. Send me a note for my list of pens, watches, knives and other fun things for sale or trade....

The Danitrio Fellowship

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I like to consider myself adept at "fence sitting", being able to then look down and see both sides of an issue.

 

I can see a genuine equal "conflict" here. (Which of course, is PRECISLEY why I asked the question...)

 

The seller set what he thought was a fair price for his item. That fair price likely didn't include him having to "pay

something" to make the deal work. However, the buyer paid HIS money and is expecting what he bought to be

delivered for the price he paid. Both were probably agreeable at the begininng that insurance for such a small purchase

was probably overkill.

 

To me anyway, it's not Either of their faults the item is missing. But it's also unfair to ask either to fully sholder the result

of same.

 

Bruce in Ocala, FL

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This is a difficult situation. Looking at it from the sellers perspective he/she has fulfilled their end of the deal by entrusting the delivery to the postal service. It is the postal service who have made the error. If the seller has made any error it was not insisting on insurance but then permitting the buyer to take responsibility of not having it.

 

I'm sorry but I think this is a case where the buyer has to be the one to take the loss. The seller has completed their obligation. The only caveat is that the seller may have never had/shipped the item, which unfortunately does happen, or that the seller didn't address the package correctly. Both of which are pretty difficult to prove.

 

Now if I was the seller I would split the difference...

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This is a difficult situation. Looking at it from the sellers perspective he/she has fulfilled their end of the deal by entrusting the delivery to the postal service. It is the postal service who have made the error. If the seller has made any error it was not insisting on insurance but then permitting the buyer to take responsibility of not having it.

 

I'm sorry but I think this is a case where the buyer has to be the one to take the loss. The seller has completed their obligation. The only caveat is that the seller may have never had/shipped the item, which unfortunately does happen, or that the seller didn't address the package correctly. Both of which are pretty difficult to prove.

 

Now if I was the seller I would split the difference...

I absolutely disagree with the sentiment that it is the buyer who must take the loss. The buyer is the one who has to be "made whole". In this situation, the buyer did not choose the shipping agent, the seller did. At this point, the seller's agent messed up. That is between the seller and the agent and the buyer did not factor into that equation. It is always, I repeat, always the seller's responsibility to make sure that the buyer gets what they paid for, especially if they intend to keep on selling.

 

Now, if this was between friends or something, I imagine something could be worked out, but as someone who has bought and sold things there are a few things I have learned

 

1. If you cannot afford to replace it or refund it, insure it.

2. If you cannot talk the buyer into insuring it and you cannot afford to replace or refund it, insure it anyway.

3. The buyer has a reasonable expectation to be made whole if as a seller your shipping agent damages, loses or outright steals your shipped item.

4. Always, always, always buy delivery confirmation. Make it part of your shipping cost or use a service that provides it as an add-on.

5. If you cannot prove that your customer received the item whole and undamaged, if they used PayPal and/or a credit card, you're screwed anyway, refund them so at least they cannot claim you ripped them off or bad mouth you in some other ways.

6. Did I mention always use insurance and delivery confirmation unless you can eat the loss of the item and the cash from the sale?

 

It's that simple. The burden of proof is on the seller until the buyer has the item in their hot little hands. Insurance and Delivery Confirmation won't even usually cost you more than $3.00 together. Think of it as a peace of mind fee. As a seller, $3.00 is well worth knowing that I can show a customer that the item was shipped when I said it would be, that they can verify that, and also verify with my shipping agent that it was delivered or even lost, and then have the shipping agent deal with paying out the insurance claim.

 

The fact of the matter is, if someone paid you money and did not get the item, you owe them the money and are out the item. The customer should always have a reasonable expectation to get what they pay for. I can think of only a few times when a buyer should cut the seller some slack and that involves acts of God. The bottom line is that it is never the customers responsibility to "help shoulder the burden" when they did not get what they paid for.

"In this world... you must be oh, so smart, or oh, so pleasant. Well for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant."

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Obviously, the best answer is that the item be insured against that so that everyone comes out

"ok".

 

But with a $10-20 item I think alot of folks don't bother with insurance for that low of an amount.

 

Buttt, it IS still $10-20.

 

What's the best way to handle an obvious lost in the mail situation like that so that each party is less

or somewhat equally "damaged"?

 

Bruce in Ocala, FL

 

 

Personally, I think that it is the seller's responsibility to get things to the buyer.

 

For expensive items, insurance should be mandatory and negotiated as part of the deal. Inexpensive items, the seller should provide a refund if the item does not arrive.

 

Just my $0.02...

 

--

Doc

 

And when the seller has done everything correctly? In my case the seller did his part properly, package was insured, package reached my city...

 

then disappeared.

 

Post Office is really giving me the run-around on the insurance, claiming the package was delivered.

 

So it was (possibly), just not to the correct address (which was on the package.)

 

Why should the seller get screwed when he did his part correctly in all ways?

 

Harry Leopold

“Prints of Darkness”

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mmm, sometimes, you just gotta assume you had bad luck. especially with cheaper parcels

The voice of this guitar of mine, at the awakening of the morning, wants to sing its joy;

I sing to your volcanoes, to your meadows and flowers, that are like mementos of the greatest of my loves;

If I am to die away from you, may they say I am sleeping, and bring me back home.

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I've been on both sides. When a package didn't arrive at the buyers home I refunded the purchase price of $30.00. Wasn't happy about it but felt it's the right thing to do.

On the other side, I had an $800.00 package vaporize from UPS. It was insured and took 6 weeks and some paperwork to collect the insurance. I now tend to insure all packages over $50.

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The difference between US postal service and the UK Post Office is stark. In Britain whether you send a package First or Second Class mail, you are insured for upto £39($55) if you have a proof of postage which is available for free at the counter. So the responsibility lies totally with the sender. With the US postal service the roles are reversed as the recipitent must pay extra for a proof of mail or insurance just for basic cover. If the person hasn't requested insurance then the buyer must accept the loss. As the Latin saying goes caveat emptor, let the buyer beware, as you must accept the consequences to your actions due to the limitations of the system. Understandably in an Egalitarian or Utopian society, as the courier lost the item it should be their responsibility, technically they have a contract with the sender to provide an effective and efficient service, so if the package was lost in their possession they should replace or refund the item. Sadly we live in a competitive, capitalistic society so unless you resorted to the drastic actions of suing the USPS through the small claims court, you must accept the loss.

Shane

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This is a difficult situation. Looking at it from the sellers perspective he/she has fulfilled their end of the deal by entrusting the delivery to the postal service. It is the postal service who have made the error. If the seller has made any error it was not insisting on insurance but then permitting the buyer to take responsibility of not having it.

 

I'm sorry but I think this is a case where the buyer has to be the one to take the loss. The seller has completed their obligation. The only caveat is that the seller may have never had/shipped the item, which unfortunately does happen, or that the seller didn't address the package correctly. Both of which are pretty difficult to prove.

 

Now if I was the seller I would split the difference...

I absolutely disagree with the sentiment that it is the buyer who must take the loss. The buyer is the one who has to be "made whole". In this situation, the buyer did not choose the shipping agent, the seller did. At this point, the seller's agent messed up. That is between the seller and the agent and the buyer did not factor into that equation. It is always, I repeat, always the seller's responsibility to make sure that the buyer gets what they paid for, especially if they intend to keep on selling.

 

Now, if this was between friends or something, I imagine something could be worked out, but as someone who has bought and sold things there are a few things I have learned

 

1. If you cannot afford to replace it or refund it, insure it.

2. If you cannot talk the buyer into insuring it and you cannot afford to replace or refund it, insure it anyway.

3. The buyer has a reasonable expectation to be made whole if as a seller your shipping agent damages, loses or outright steals your shipped item.

4. Always, always, always buy delivery confirmation. Make it part of your shipping cost or use a service that provides it as an add-on.

5. If you cannot prove that your customer received the item whole and undamaged, if they used PayPal and/or a credit card, you're screwed anyway, refund them so at least they cannot claim you ripped them off or bad mouth you in some other ways.

6. Did I mention always use insurance and delivery confirmation unless you can eat the loss of the item and the cash from the sale?

 

It's that simple. The burden of proof is on the seller until the buyer has the item in their hot little hands. Insurance and Delivery Confirmation won't even usually cost you more than $3.00 together. Think of it as a peace of mind fee. As a seller, $3.00 is well worth knowing that I can show a customer that the item was shipped when I said it would be, that they can verify that, and also verify with my shipping agent that it was delivered or even lost, and then have the shipping agent deal with paying out the insurance claim.

 

The fact of the matter is, if someone paid you money and did not get the item, you owe them the money and are out the item. The customer should always have a reasonable expectation to get what they pay for. I can think of only a few times when a buyer should cut the seller some slack and that involves acts of God. The bottom line is that it is never the customers responsibility to "help shoulder the burden" when they did not get what they paid for.

 

I totally disagree with your statement that the seller is responsible for providing a refund....

I have sold more than my share of pens and also ship quite a few pens to my restoration customers...

ALL the pens I sell are shipped with delivery confirmation.... insurance is offered at extra cost to the customer.

IF the customer does not want the pens shipped insured, and they are somehow lost by the postal system that is no longer my responsibility...

I have proof the item was shipped by sending it with delivery confirmation... and I always provide the customer with the delivery confirmation numbers so they can also track the package....

I am very specific in mentioning that once the package leaves my hands at the post office it is no longer my responsibility UNLESS the buyer asks it to be insured...

The seller has no control of what happens once it is in the hands of the postal system...

Fortunately, I do have business insurance for my pen business that will cover items lost in the mail and will make every effort to make sure the buyer gets reimbursed. However, that can sometimes take a bit of time....

But, again, I will state that if the buyer does not ask for (and pay for) postal insurance, the seller is not responsible once the item is in the hands of the postal system.

 

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Just an interesting side note regarding mailing. If it came to a court battle, i.e., the purchaser sued, if the seller had obtained a proof of mailing from the sending Post Office, seller would win the case. There is significant case law that proof of delivery by the Post Office has been negated in trials, but proof of mailing has 100 percent of the time been considered, by the courts and by juries, to be proof that whatever is at issue was received.

 

Donnie

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Edmund Burke (1729 - 1797)

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Just an interesting side note regarding mailing. If it came to a court battle, i.e., the purchaser sued, if the seller had obtained a proof of mailing from the sending Post Office, seller would win the case. There is significant case law that proof of delivery by the Post Office has been negated in trials, but proof of mailing has 100 percent of the time been considered, by the courts and by juries, to be proof that whatever is at issue was received.

 

Donnie

Are you a lawyer, Donnie? I only ask because as a seller, I learned long ago that when dealing with PayPal, it will be the seller who is responsible. Also, check on the eBay fora under Seller Central specifically and ask this same question. The bottom line is that it will be the seller who is held responsible for a lost item, insurance or not. Proof of mailing can do little but prove someone sent anything to someone. I believe any lawyer worth his or her salt could bring doubt on that.

"In this world... you must be oh, so smart, or oh, so pleasant. Well for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant."

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Just an interesting side note regarding mailing. If it came to a court battle, i.e., the purchaser sued, if the seller had obtained a proof of mailing from the sending Post Office, seller would win the case. There is significant case law that proof of delivery by the Post Office has been negated in trials, but proof of mailing has 100 percent of the time been considered, by the courts and by juries, to be proof that whatever is at issue was received.

 

Donnie

Are you a lawyer, Donnie? I only ask because as a seller, I learned long ago that when dealing with PayPal, it will be the seller who is responsible. Also, check on the eBay fora under Seller Central specifically and ask this same question. The bottom line is that it will be the seller who is held responsible for a lost item, insurance or not. Proof of mailing can do little but prove someone sent anything to someone. I believe any lawyer worth his or her salt could bring doubt on that.

 

I too find it difficult to believe that proof of mailing has always held up. What if I sold an expensive LE then got proof of mailing of an empty box or box with a parts pen in it? Could I then claim that the PO employees did something such that the LE was no longer my responsibility?

 

In any case, rightly or wrongly, paypal or the buyer's credit card will side with them again the seller even if the buyer explicitly refuses insurance. Actually, I agree with them. If I contract with you to exchange an 'item' for 'something (money, trade, etc.)' then you need to get my item to me if I have gotten my something to you. Otherwise, how have you held up your end of the deal? Whether you meant to cheat me or not, you still have my something and I have nothing in return.

 

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Obviously, the best answer is that the item be insured against that so that everyone comes out

"ok".

 

But with a $10-20 item I think alot of folks don't bother with insurance for that low of an amount.

 

Buttt, it IS still $10-20.

 

What's the best way to handle an obvious lost in the mail situation like that so that each party is less

or somewhat equally "damaged"?

 

Bruce in Ocala, FL

 

One way would be for the seller offers insurance and it is the buyer's decision to pay or not.

 

K

 

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That is the reason that I state in my auctions that insurance is optional and highly recommended. Things get lost in the mail all the time. If you want to be sure it gets to you or you have financial recourse if it doesn't, get insurance, .....period.

 

I am not a retail business with an endless supply of the same item. Rare and unusual items need insurance and old fountain pens are mostly in that category. A cheap pen (<$10) may not be worth the cost of about $3, but you don't buy insurance at your risk. I alsways supply proof of mailing.

Rob

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You might check here: http://chestofbooks.com/business/law/Ameri...ts-Of-Thir.html Scroll down. Your jurisdiction may not ollow suit, but it seems like a very good general principle.

Edited by jdclarkson

http://home.earthlink.net/~athanatos/John-Sig%203.png

 

"Let those who don't want none

have memories of not gettin' any."

—Bro. David Gardner
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So whaddya do when you post in Spain, insured, to Arizona, it's tracked to US Customs....and then NOTHING?

 

USC and USPS don't seem interested and Correos won't initiate a claim until I get official notification/admission that it's 'lost' :(

 

(I just posted, in the GRRRR! thread:

Imagine how many bottles(of wine/tranquillisers!) I and Jim at poohcornerpens have got through, waiting for the US Customs and USPS to admit that the $700 or so of pens I sent him from Spain are 'officially lost', so that I can initiate an insurance claim!!

The package was last seen entering the Customs in NY, on 9th JANUARY......Jim is still waiting, not too patiently...in Az :angry: )

 

I've suggested that Jim contact USPS again and give 'em a week to 'deliver or declare lost(in writing)'.....does that sound sensible?

Edited by rogerb

If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you.

 

Don Marquis

US humorist (1878 - 1937)

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Unfortunately, so far as I noticed, No One addressed the situation as detailed in the OP. (Though there was much

rabbit chasing in that general neighborhood...)

 

The situation was/is/could be that due to the small purchase price, neither buyer nor seller thought it "necessary"

to offer or purchase insurance.

 

THEN, the item turns up not turned up.

 

What then?

 

Bruce in Ocala, FL

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Unfortunately, so far as I noticed, No One addressed the situation as detailed in the OP. (Though there was much

rabbit chasing in that general neighborhood...)

 

The situation was/is/could be that due to the small purchase price, neither buyer nor seller thought it "necessary"

to offer or purchase insurance.

 

THEN, the item turns up not turned up.

 

What then?

 

Bruce in Ocala, FL

 

<shrug> My answer still stands. I exchanged money for a pen. The seller received my money (or he wouldn't have shipped) so I need to be provided with either pen or my money back.

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Maybe the judgement of Solomon?.......send you half the money back to equalise both your losses?

 

I think English law says the pen belongs to the sender until the intended receiver receives/accepts it???

Edited by rogerb

If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you.

 

Don Marquis

US humorist (1878 - 1937)

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