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Please help me identify this interesting Waterman FP


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11 replies to this topic

#1 TMarch

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 04:09

I'm hoping someone can help me solve what is probably a very simple mystery. I am totally baffled by the fill system of this Waterman's pen I just acquired. The ink storage system seems to consist of a (seemingly fixed/non-removable) metal cylinder/cartridge with a hinged door or flap at the top. There doesn't seem to be a pressure bar underneath that flap--just more of the same metal, just slightly indented. The cylinder/cartridge does not come out of the pen--I'm not sure it's supposed to, and I'm afraid to try to remove it with any more force than I've already used.

Here are the clues I have available--in addition to the photos attached.

The pen's nib reads as follows:

"Waterman's
14CTS
3
MADE IN
FRANCE"


The clip says "WATERMANS"

The barrel says "MADE IN FRANCE" and is lightly stamped with the words "FINE NIB"

Both the cap and barrel have flat ends.

Is this a knock-off? Or a Waterman that someone has tried to convert using another manufacturer's cartridge? I've seen one reference to this kind of cartridge on this forum, so maybe it's legit. Then again, there's only the one reference--and I've tried just about every search combination I can imagine.

It's a lovely pen, though, and I deeply appreciate any help you can provide!



Waterman2.jpeg Waterman1.jpeg

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#2 sumgaikid

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 04:24

My guess is that it looks like Waterman's own version of the aerometric system
made by Parker for their 51's. Looks like you press the bar down which depresses
the sac inside to suck up ink. Back in the 1930's,Waterman had a pen called the
Ink-Vue which used the same principle of sucking ink into a barrel as Parker's
Vacumatic did;the difference was that while Parker used a plunger and diaphragm
filler unit to inhale ink into the barrel,Waterman used a small bulb and a lever
(placed at the end of the barrel like this one) that folded in half upon itself to do
the same thing.

John
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#3 rhosygell

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 09:57

I have encountered one of those converters on a French Waterman, probably from the c/f era. Works well. Likely to be difficult to repair if it needs a new sac.

By the way an Ink Vue works somewhat differently to that converter.

Edited by rhosygell, 14 May 2009 - 09:58.

Iechyd da pob Cymro

#4 TMarch

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 10:55

Thanks for the information. It helps. I still can't get the thing to draw ink (or water, for that matter); the door/flap seems really to do nothing--unless the mechanism inside the cartridge is very sensitive and I just can't tell that it's doing anything.

Perhaps part of the problem is age--dried ink clogging the works, etc. I'll soak it for a few hours over a few days and see if that dislodges or dissolves anything.

The finish is gorgeous, and the nib is virtually pristine--I'd love to get this pen working. I dipped it this morning, just to see how it writes, and it's very smooth.

Thanks again!



QUOTE (sumgaikid @ May 14 2009, 05:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
My guess is that it looks like Waterman's own version of the aerometric system
made by Parker for their 51's. Looks like you press the bar down which depresses
the sac inside to suck up ink. Back in the 1930's,Waterman had a pen called the
Ink-Vue which used the same principle of sucking ink into a barrel as Parker's
Vacumatic did;the difference was that while Parker used a plunger and diaphragm
filler unit to inhale ink into the barrel,Waterman used a small bulb and a lever
(placed at the end of the barrel like this one) that folded in half upon itself to do
the same thing.

John



#5 Greg

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Posted 23 June 2009 - 11:44

QUOTE (rhosygell @ May 14 2009, 10:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I have encountered one of those converters on a French Waterman, probably from the c/f era. Works well. Likely to be difficult to repair if it needs a new sac.

By the way an Ink Vue works somewhat differently to that converter.



This is a bump for this thread as I now have a similar pen and know not how to fill it!

Its certainly French, has a 'Double or lamine' (double gold plate) cap and a nice, soft size 3 nib.

But how do you use the converter? It pulls out of the section nice and cleany to reveal a hole, rather like a cartridge. But it is too nicely made to be disposable. And the metal lever, it flaps about a little but I can't work out what it does. Underneath is merely an indentation in the steel tube to allow it to lay flat. Lifting it will move it a couple of mil before it hits a stop of some kind.

Anyone know how this works?


Greg


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#6 HLeopold

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Posted 23 June 2009 - 23:10

QUOTE (Greg @ Jun 23 2009, 06:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (rhosygell @ May 14 2009, 10:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I have encountered one of those converters on a French Waterman, probably from the c/f era. Works well. Likely to be difficult to repair if it needs a new sac.

By the way an Ink Vue works somewhat differently to that converter.



This is a bump for this thread as I now have a similar pen and know not how to fill it!

Its certainly French, has a 'Double or lamine' (double gold plate) cap and a nice, soft size 3 nib.

But how do you use the converter? It pulls out of the section nice and cleany to reveal a hole, rather like a cartridge. But it is too nicely made to be disposable. And the metal lever, it flaps about a little but I can't work out what it does. Underneath is merely an indentation in the steel tube to allow it to lay flat. Lifting it will move it a couple of mil before it hits a stop of some kind.

Anyone know how this works?


Greg


I would assume that the flap is a "v" shaped piece that the inside piece presses down onto a rubber sac, and the problem is that the sac has hardened. As to how the cartridge is taken apart, I would not have a clue. If it is possible to do so without destroying the cartridge it should then be possible to replace the sac and put everything back together.
Harry Leopold
“Prints of Darkness”

#7 TMarch

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Posted 10 July 2009 - 14:42

Thanks for adding and elaborating. I suspected this might be a removable cartridge--but I'm not able to get it to slide out, and I also fear breaking it. If nothing else, it's still a great, smooth writer when dipped.

As for the hinged flap--it doesn't seem to connect to anything inside the cartridge--unless it's so fine and delicate as to be imperceptible in its movements. Quite a mystery.

#8 hilsedwards

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 07:51

Thanks for adding and elaborating. I suspected this might be a removable cartridge--but I'm not able to get it to slide out, and I also fear breaking it. If nothing else, it's still a great, smooth writer when dipped.

As for the hinged flap--it doesn't seem to connect to anything inside the cartridge--unless it's so fine and delicate as to be imperceptible in its movements. Quite a mystery.

I have just acquired one of these delightful pens and yes the metal 'cartridge' is removable and the black/brownish tip of said 'cartridge' is also removable and reveals a rubber sac inside. Easily replaced with a new size 14 sac.
The little gold flap on the outside is the filling 'lever' you just lift it and the metal bar inside the metal cartridge squeezes the sac.
Simples (when you know how!)

#9 Xof72000

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 14:06

I will confirm this is a french model.
As far as I know, it hasn't a real name but we call it "Ligne 60".

:happyberet:

#10 Effin1

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 21:43

I asked on an earlier post if anyone knew about the convertor in a Waterman Flair. Well, its identical to the 1 in the OP's pen. Mine arrived today and the end of the convertor was stuck in the section. When I tried to remove it I cracked the barrel. I was able to put a cartridge in but I still haven't managed to get the pen to write. Seems like the OP has the same trouble with the convertor end.

#11 pdbissett

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 16:06

I have the same sort of Watermans pen (yes with the "s") and it had the original packaging and a label. The label called it a "JIF-matic" and it looks circa 1940-50s. It is out for repair to the second shop, as it is very difficult to get into...

pdb

 

(I'd post a picture here, but as a newbie here, I haven't figured out how to upload one to the FPN)


p d b

#12 enchiridion

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 22:26

it is a Waterman's 88 with Jif-matic from 1959-1960.

Jif acquired the Waterman brand.


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