Parker 51

[ANM]

If a 2009 car is new and a 1947 car is not, who cares what the cut off point is? A pen made in 2009 is a new pen, a pen made in 1947 is not. It can be like new, it can be as good as new but it isn't new.

 

I bought my new 2003 car in 2004.

 

and...

 

-d

 

and..... they gave you a few hundred dollars off because your new car wasn't new anymore.

 

NO, they gave him the money off because they needed to get car off the lot.

The longer a car stays on the lot (brand new or a couple of months old) the more it costs the dealership in interest to the manufacturer...

That is why last year's models are always cheaper...

 

As for what constitutes a new pen.... in the opinion of many people in the pen collecting hobby it is a pen that has never been used no matter when it was made...

Generally we refer to them as New Old Stock... but they are new as they have never been used...

I found the following definitions of new online

# not of long duration; having just (or relatively recently) come into being or been made or acquired or discovered

# fresh: original; This supports

# unaffected by use or exposure

Basically what we have here is "a failure to communicate" as they said in Cool Hand Luke....

Semantics... pure and simple....

BUT, as is generally the case with most specialty hobbies... it is the people within the hobby the define the particulars and conditions of what they collect...

And apparently within the pen community the definition of NOS is a pen that may have been made 50 yrs ago, but is new because it has never been inked.

 

It is called New Old Stock to differentiate it from New New stock. It is old but as it was when it WAS new. I agree it is simply a matter of semantics and as usual on this board, we could go on and on ad nausium discussing the simple fact that there are only two ways of looking at ths. It is new or it isn't new but can be considered the same as new. I choose one interpretation of that word, you choose to accentuate another.

Edited March 30, 2009 by ANM

[david i]

If a 2009 car is new and a 1947 car is not, who cares what the cut off point is? A pen made in 2009 is a new pen, a pen made in 1947 is not. It can be like new, it can be as good as new but it isn't new.

 

I bought my new 2003 car in 2004.

 

and...

 

-d

 

and..... they gave you a few hundred dollars off because your new car wasn't new anymore.

 

No. Whatever price i received had nothing to do with imagined lack of newness. The car indeed was new. In fact my discount was far less than the discount i received from dealer previously when I bought my new 1999 car in 1998 (yes, I've got the cited years straight).

 

regards

 

david

Edited March 30, 2009 by david i

[david i]

# unaffected by use or exposure

Basically what we have here is "a failure to communicate" as they said in Cool Hand Luke....

Semantics... pure and simple....

 

Again returning to my core assertion

 

Though, I note what Luke had was not "a failure to communicate", but rather "failure to communicate".

 

regards

 

David

[DaveM]

I am not "New", even though I am in perfect, unblemished condition.

 

I am still "Old".

 

(And somewhat delusional about my condition)

 

 

Dave

 

p.s. Cathie is making weird snorting noises as she reads this over my shoulder

 

I could make the claim that I am "New" compared to her, as I look so much better, but I am still older by actual age...

Gotta go. It's hurting me too much to keep writing this!

 

She may be old, but she still has wicked fingernails!

[jmkeuning]

A car and 51 are different. You cannot compare the two. A car that has been sitting for 50 years is going to have rotted tires, rusted parts, etc. A 51 that has been sitting for 50 years will likely appear to be brand new.

 

 

By the wacky reasoning:

 

David, you cannot buy a 1999 car in 1998 and call it new. Just like the 2003 car is not new in 2004, because it is older than new, a 1999 car is not new in 1998, because it is newer than new.

 

So, that new car you thought you bought was actually newer. Newest even. So, not new old stock, not new new stock. But new future stock.

 

I had no idea that new was determined by a calendar.

[ANM]

A car and 51 are different. You cannot compare the two. A car that has been sitting for 50 years is going to have rotted tires, rusted parts, etc. A 51 that has been sitting for 50 years will likely appear to be brand new.

 

 

By the wacky reasoning:

 

David, you cannot buy a 1999 car in 1998 and call it new. Just like the 2003 car is not new in 2004, because it is older than new, a 1999 car is not new in 1998, because it is newer than new.

 

So, that new car you thought you bought was actually newer. Newest even. So, not new old stock, not new new stock. But new future stock.

 

I had no idea that new was determined by a calendar.

 

It was not my intention to compare a 50-60 year old car directly with a pen of the same age but rather to point out that no matter how you look at it, an object that is 50-60 years old is not new. Even in your own words, it will LIKELY APPEAR to be brand new. You would be misrepresenting a pen from the 1940's if you said it was new. If you qualify new by saying it is new old stock, you are ok because you are acknowledging that it is old but will appear and function as if it were made yesterday. (Plastic, vinyl and steel in a pen can deteriorate too. Perhaps not to the same extent however)

 

It isn't a matter of failure to communicate it is a matter of failure to accept alternate interpretations of the concept of new. Alternate interpretations that are the more commonly acceptable definitions, BTW. It isn't seemly or relevant to side track a discussion with snide side remarks.

Edited March 30, 2009 by ANM

[skybird]

No wacky reasoning or anything else..........

The term NOS - new old stock - covers this succinctly!

But - if you come across a NOS 51 - don't write with it because it simply becomes another used 51. The value of the uniked model will disappear immediately.

The NOS 51 should be preserved for display and you can pick up a used - or slightly used one that will be no different after a week in use than the NOS.

And should you find your 1949 NOS car - would you drive it?

Tough call.

When I first got to Melbourne I spotted an E Type Jag 67 4.2 coupe - red with white - 100 miles on the clock! When I came back the next day to buy it - SOLD! But the whole night in between I thought of the drive/not drive dilemma and didn't sleep.

I think I would have driven it.

But then again its easier to get and display a NOS 51 - and cheaper too ;-)

[OldGriz]

It isn't a matter of failure to communicate it is a matter of failure to accept alternate interpretations of the concept of new. Alternate interpretations that are the more commonly acceptable definitions, BTW. It isn't seemly or relevant to side track a discussion with snide side remarks.

 

IMO, it is the failure to accept what is the generally accepted normal terminology and standard of the pen collecting hobby...

[ANM]

OK Old Griz. That is a good note upon which to let this discussion end.

[david i]

It isn't a matter of failure to communicate it is a matter of failure to accept alternate interpretations of the concept of new. Alternate interpretations that are the more commonly acceptable definitions, BTW. It isn't seemly or relevant to side track a discussion with snide side remarks.

 

Well no. To a large extent it is failure to communicate... with Snide-idity (eep!) or perceived Snide-idity perhaps being something similar as well to "new" by lending self to semantic debate.

 

George-2 had it right making his warning when he posted response to my original post and suggested to tread carefully before taking unduly strong stands

 

My very original point, to recap, was as follows:

 

Well... I do carry some that are brand new. Of course, they are not "recent"

 

I guess it depends on what "new" means.

 

This is the very essence of implied recognition that alternative interpretations to the conept of new are to be considered.

 

Then, save for George-2 (who quite rapidly caught where this was going), JMKeuning, ol' Krantz, and to a degree Griz, folks got caught up in insisting there are not alternative interpretations to the concept but rather only the interpretation that new = recent.

 

Still, a provocative thread

 

-d

Edited March 31, 2009 by david i

[grimakis]

Day two....

[david i]

Day two....

 

I figure a week.

 

We have yet to discuss "new to me / new to you"

 

-d

[MLKirk]

Day two....

 

I figure a week.

 

We have yet to discuss "new to me / new to you"

 

-d

But NOS was barely touched! So much to argue (discuss?) about, so little time (left).

Is it New Old, New New, or moderately experienced. Fascinating........

 

Regards,

Mr. Butinski

[skybird]

But NOS was barely touched! So much to argue (discuss?) about, so little time (left).

Is it New Old, New New, or moderately experienced. Fascinating........

 

Regards,

Mr. Butinski

 

 

Yeah I always thought the term should be Old New-Stock as such but never was close to being there at the start of the acronym NOS ;-)

 

And so it continues.

[grimakis]

Day two....

 

I figure a week.

 

We have yet to discuss "new to me / new to you"

 

-d

 

First off, I believe the OP wanted to know if they were currently being produced, that was my interpretation.

 

 

Second, I believe that NOS implys that the item in question is NEW. Does it matter that it has been handled? Not really. You buy a computer at Best Buy and it has been sitting in its box for a year. The

 

manfacturer actually discontinued that model a few weeks ago, so it is not currently in production. The computer is still brand new and never used. Why does it matter how long the item has been out of

 

production? It really doesn't. 50 years or 2 weeks, as long as it is not "USED" it is "NEW".(If there is significant damage, IDK what you would call it)

 

 

But just to make this point very clear. They no longer make/produce new Parker "51"s.

 

~George

[david i]

Day two....

 

I figure a week.

 

We have yet to discuss "new to me / new to you"

 

-d

 

First off, I believe the OP wanted to know if they were currently being produced, that was my interpretation.

 

 

Second, I believe that NOS implys that the item in question is NEW. Does it matter that it has been handled? Not really. You buy a computer at Best Buy and it has been sitting in its box for a year. The

 

manfacturer actually discontinued that model a few weeks ago, so it is not currently in production. The computer is still brand new and never used. Why does it matter how long the item has been out of

 

production? It really doesn't. 50 years or 2 weeks, as long as it is not "USED" it is "NEW".(If there is significant damage, IDK what you would call it)

 

 

But just to make this point very clear. They no longer make/produce new Parker "51"s.

 

~George

 

To make the point clearer still (i hate extra words)... they no longer make/produce Parker "51"'s.

 

-d

[grimakis]

Day two....

 

I figure a week.

 

We have yet to discuss "new to me / new to you"

 

-d

 

First off, I believe the OP wanted to know if they were currently being produced, that was my interpretation.

 

 

Second, I believe that NOS implys that the item in question is NEW. Does it matter that it has been handled? Not really. You buy a computer at Best Buy and it has been sitting in its box for a year. The

 

manfacturer actually discontinued that model a few weeks ago, so it is not currently in production. The computer is still brand new and never used. Why does it matter how long the item has been out of

 

production? It really doesn't. 50 years or 2 weeks, as long as it is not "USED" it is "NEW".(If there is significant damage, IDK what you would call it)

 

 

But just to make this point very clear. They no longer make/produce new Parker "51"s.

 

~George

 

To make the point clearer still (i hate extra words)... they no longer make/produce Parker "51"'s.

 

-d

 

Taken directly from "The Elements of Style, 4th Edition" by William Strunk Jr. and E.B. White.

"Omit Needless Words.

 

Vigorous writing is concise. A sentence should contain no unnecessary words, a paragraph no unnecessary sentances, for the same reason that a drawing should have no unnecessary lines and a machine no unnecessary parts. This requires not that the writer make all sentances short, or avoid all detail and treat subjects only in outline, but that every word tell."

 

To make YOUR point clearer still.

[david i]

Day two....

 

I figure a week.

 

We have yet to discuss "new to me / new to you"

 

-d

 

First off, I believe the OP wanted to know if they were currently being produced, that was my interpretation.

 

 

Second, I believe that NOS implys that the item in question is NEW. Does it matter that it has been handled? Not really. You buy a computer at Best Buy and it has been sitting in its box for a year. The

 

manfacturer actually discontinued that model a few weeks ago, so it is not currently in production. The computer is still brand new and never used. Why does it matter how long the item has been out of

 

production? It really doesn't. 50 years or 2 weeks, as long as it is not "USED" it is "NEW".(If there is significant damage, IDK what you would call it)

 

 

But just to make this point very clear. They no longer make/produce new Parker "51"s.

 

~George

 

To make the point clearer still (i hate extra words)... they no longer make/produce Parker "51"'s.

 

-d

 

Taken directly from "The Elements of Style, 4th Edition" by William Strunk Jr. and E.B. White.

"Omit Needless Words.

 

Vigorous writing is concise. A sentence should contain no unnecessary words, a paragraph no unnecessary sentances, for the same reason that a drawing should have no unnecessary lines and a machine no unnecessary parts. This requires not that the writer make all sentances short, or avoid all detail and treat subjects only in outline, but that every word tell."

 

To make YOUR point clearer still.

 

No, you just used more words, not fewer, and said nothing new.

 

Ahhh Strunk. It charmed back in the day.

 

-d

Edited March 31, 2009 by david i

[grimakis]

Day two....

 

I figure a week.

 

We have yet to discuss "new to me / new to you"

 

-d

 

First off, I believe the OP wanted to know if they were currently being produced, that was my interpretation.

 

 

Second, I believe that NOS implys that the item in question is NEW. Does it matter that it has been handled? Not really. You buy a computer at Best Buy and it has been sitting in its box for a year. The

 

manfacturer actually discontinued that model a few weeks ago, so it is not currently in production. The computer is still brand new and never used. Why does it matter how long the item has been out of

 

production? It really doesn't. 50 years or 2 weeks, as long as it is not "USED" it is "NEW".(If there is significant damage, IDK what you would call it)

 

 

But just to make this point very clear. They no longer make/produce new Parker "51"s.

 

~George

 

To make the point clearer still (i hate extra words)... they no longer make/produce Parker "51"'s.

 

-d

 

Taken directly from "The Elements of Style, 4th Edition" by William Strunk Jr. and E.B. White.

"Omit Needless Words.

 

Vigorous writing is concise. A sentence should contain no unnecessary words, a paragraph no unnecessary sentances, for the same reason that a drawing should have no unnecessary lines and a machine no unnecessary parts. This requires not that the writer make all sentances short, or avoid all detail and treat subjects only in outline, but that every word tell."

 

To make YOUR point clearer still.

 

No, you just used more words, not fewer, and said nothing new.

 

Ahhh Strunk. It charmed back in the day.

 

-d

 

One of the best references one can have, albeit somewhat dated.(IMHO)

[david i]

Day two....

 

I figure a week.

 

We have yet to discuss "new to me / new to you"

 

-d

 

First off, I believe the OP wanted to know if they were currently being produced, that was my interpretation.

 

 

Second, I believe that NOS implys that the item in question is NEW. Does it matter that it has been handled? Not really. You buy a computer at Best Buy and it has been sitting in its box for a year. The

 

manfacturer actually discontinued that model a few weeks ago, so it is not currently in production. The computer is still brand new and never used. Why does it matter how long the item has been out of

 

production? It really doesn't. 50 years or 2 weeks, as long as it is not "USED" it is "NEW".(If there is significant damage, IDK what you would call it)

 

 

But just to make this point very clear. They no longer make/produce new Parker "51"s.

 

~George

 

To make the point clearer still (i hate extra words)... they no longer make/produce Parker "51"'s.

 

-d

 

Taken directly from "The Elements of Style, 4th Edition" by William Strunk Jr. and E.B. White.

"Omit Needless Words.

 

Vigorous writing is concise. A sentence should contain no unnecessary words, a paragraph no unnecessary sentances, for the same reason that a drawing should have no unnecessary lines and a machine no unnecessary parts. This requires not that the writer make all sentances short, or avoid all detail and treat subjects only in outline, but that every word tell."

 

To make YOUR point clearer still.

 

No, you just used more words, not fewer, and said nothing new.

 

Ahhh Strunk. It charmed back in the day.

 

-d

 

One of the best references one can have, albeit somewhat dated.(IMHO)

 

Recent editions have had some issues.

 

-d