Parker 51

[tonysameh]

Hi All

I always hear about Parker 51 as the world most popular FP.

 

So, is it still sold brand new?

[grimakis]

Sadly... no. They made a Parker "51" SE a few years ago, but it only resembles the original cosmetically. You will need to look around for a vintage "51" if you want the real deal.

 

~George

[jmkeuning]

Not recently manufacturered. A brand new pen will be new old stock.

 

There was a Special Edition sold in 2002.

[david i]

Sadly... no. They made a Parker "51" SE a few years ago, but it only resembles the original cosmetically. You will need to look around for a vintage "51" if you want the real deal.

 

~George

 

Well... I do carry some that are brand new. Of course, they are not "recent"

 

I guess it depends on what "new" means.

 

-d

[ANM]

David, I think new and recent are synonyms. Some of your pens are like new, ununsed, mint, new old stock, etc but not new.

 

BTW, I have been looking at your site for a nice pen made in 1944. I have seen a few I'd like. Someday I'll pull the trigger as they say. Kind of cash committed to other projects at the moment though.

[grimakis]

David, I think new and recent are synonyms. Some of your pens are like new, ununsed, mint, new old stock, etc but not new.

 

BTW, I have been looking at your site for a nice pen made in 1944. I have seen a few I'd like. Someday I'll pull the trigger as they say. Kind of cash committed to other projects at the moment though.

 

 

I recommend retracting your previous statement. We could be here for days arguing whether or not "New" and "New Old Stock" are synonyms.

[Glenn-SC]

There are no "51"s being manufactured at this time.

 

(And, no, Heros do not count. Argentinian reproductions do not count either.)

[jmkeuning]

Sold

 

Brand New

 

 

If a pen has never been used, then it is brand new. I someone sells a pen that is new old stock, then the person is selling a brand new pen. Thus, yes, 51s are sold brand new.

 

Unless new is defined by how long the pen has been out of the factory. In which case, yeah, that is a conversation that will never be resolved, like, How many pieces of hay does it take to make a stack?

 

[ANM]

A pen that was made recently is new. A car that was made recently is new. A 1947 Lincoln Continental with only had 20 original miles on it is NOT a new car. A pen that was made in 1947 is NOT a new pen even though it may have never been used.

 

I am fully aware of the risks I have taken by challenging David to a quarrel over semantics but I won't debate him. I will let him rebut my statement if he wishes and let it go at that.

Edited March 30, 2009 by ANM

[AndyH]

Do the traditional words "Obsolete" and "Obsolescent" apply here?

 

Obviously no pen that still functions as it was intended to is obsolete, but IIRC "Obsolescent" means "no longer being manufactured."

 

"New" is the subjective term here...

[Jerome Tarshis]

"Obsolescent" does not mean "no longer being manufactured." It means something else: on the way to becoming obsolete. Nearly obsolete. Consider looking the word up in a dictionary. By analogy, "pubescent" means "going through the process of puberty." And"putrescent" means "becoming putrid."

 

Many obsolescent products are being manufactured at any given time, which is why they are disparaged as being obsolescent. The history of warfare is just full of obsolete and obsolescent weapons being newly manufactured and issued to soldiers. By the end of World War II the Messerschmidt 109, which was a serviceable fighter at the beginning of the war, was a death trap for German pilots, having long been overtaken by such newer fighter planes as the (guess what is my favorite pen) American P-51.

 

OTOH guerrillas and other relatively irregular soldiers have done a lot of damage using obsolete or obsolescent weapons. Sherlock Holmes's friend Dr. Watson was wounded in Afghanistan by what was called a jezail bullet, which would have come from what the British would have considered a far from state of the art weapon for themselves, but one that could wound and kill. The English issued Brown Bess muskets to the Indian Army long after they might have been considered at least obsolescent and arguably obsolete for use by an army in Europe.

[jmkeuning]

A 1947 car that has not been driven, and is sold, is certainly sold new. It may not be a new model; it's not, but it is a new car. Of course, with cars, you have more issues with the deterioration of materials than you have in a 51, especially an aerometric, so the actual car product will be different that the car that came out of the factory, so it is not new inasmuch as some materials will have deteriorated.

 

The other problem is that this hypothetical car is most likely nonexistent. Not too many car dealers boarded up the windows and put the cars in a closet. However, there are (apparently) plenty of pen dealers who squirreled away inventory. These pens are coming to the market through very much the same channels which they traveled 60 years ago, it just took a little longer.

 

Notwithstanding all of the above, if a 2009 car is new, but a 1947 car is not, what year marks the cut-off?

 

edit: fix epic typos

Edited March 30, 2009 by jmkeuning

[ANM]

If a 2009 car is new and a 1947 car is not, who cares what the cut off point is? A pen made in 2009 is a new pen, a pen made in 1947 is not. It can be like new, it can be as good as new but it isn't new.

[david i]

If a 2009 car is new and a 1947 car is not, who cares what the cut off point is? A pen made in 2009 is a new pen, a pen made in 1947 is not. It can be like new, it can be as good as new but it isn't new.

 

I bought my new 2003 car in 2004.

 

and...

 

-d

[Rick Krantz]

I think the best way to settle this is to rephrase the question as to "current manufactured", versus new. because with the car comparison, I suppose that you could find on a dealer lot, a car that is new, but old stock from 1,2,3 years previous, so is it not "new" ? What is the cutoff...? The New, never used 51's that people bring to market are new, just not current manufacture, nor are they currently being made, but in all sense, they are new. I think the question does not lend itself for a great answer.

[david i]

... What is the cutoff...? The New, never used 51's that people bring to market are new, just not current manufacture, nor are they currently being made, but in all sense, they are new. I think the question does not lend itself for a great answer.

 

... which was rather my point

 

Some get it at least

 

-d

[seymour]

Hi all

 

Collectors do not see these pens as genuine Parker 51s, but there are two sources for new pens. They are Kulik in Argentina who makes non-standard 51s and there is a factory in Brazil which manufactures standard 51s.

 

If the pens are identical to the vintage model, I am not in a position to say. I still prefer to buy vintage even if I have to pay to have the pen reconditioned.

 

Chaim

 

 

[OldGriz]

Hi all

 

Collectors do not see these pens as genuine Parker 51s, but there are two sources for new pens. They are Kulik in Argentina who makes non-standard 51s and there is a factory in Brazil which manufactures standard 51s.

 

If the pens are identical to the vintage model, I am not in a position to say. I still prefer to buy vintage even if I have to pay to have the pen reconditioned.

 

Chaim

 

Kullick does manufacture Parker 51 Fantasy pens using the original nibs and insides, but using his own bodies and hoods... nice pens and he does not claim them to be original Parker 51s..

 

However, Parker did have factories in both Argentina and Brazil that manufactured real original Parker 51s for years... both are now closed...

There is no current factory, to the best of my knowledge, manufacturing Parker 51s in Brazil or Argentina.

David made quite a good deal on some Brazilian made Parkers at the Columbus Show last year...

 

I have a couple of Argentine Parker 51s and 61s and were made every bit as good as the US or English made pens...

In fact look down on this forum and you can see 3 Argentine Parker 51s that recently came into my possession.

One of the nice things about collecting 51s is that the colors are not always the same from factory to factory... as can be seen in the 3 I just got or in the English "Bloody Burgundy" that was only made there...

[ANM]

If a 2009 car is new and a 1947 car is not, who cares what the cut off point is? A pen made in 2009 is a new pen, a pen made in 1947 is not. It can be like new, it can be as good as new but it isn't new.

 

I bought my new 2003 car in 2004.

 

and...

 

-d

 

and..... they gave you a few hundred dollars off because your new car wasn't new anymore.

[OldGriz]

If a 2009 car is new and a 1947 car is not, who cares what the cut off point is? A pen made in 2009 is a new pen, a pen made in 1947 is not. It can be like new, it can be as good as new but it isn't new.

 

I bought my new 2003 car in 2004.

 

and...

 

-d

 

and..... they gave you a few hundred dollars off because your new car wasn't new anymore.

 

NO, they gave him the money off because they needed to get car off the lot.

The longer a car stays on the lot (brand new or a couple of months old) the more it costs the dealership in interest to the manufacturer...

That is why last year's models are always cheaper...

 

As for what constitutes a new pen.... in the opinion of many people in the pen collecting hobby it is a pen that has never been used no matter when it was made...

Generally we refer to them as New Old Stock... but they are new as they have never been used...

I found the following definitions of new online

# not of long duration; having just (or relatively recently) come into being or been made or acquired or discovered

# fresh: original; This supports

# unaffected by use or exposure

Basically what we have here is "a failure to communicate" as they said in Cool Hand Luke....

Semantics... pure and simple....

BUT, as is generally the case with most specialty hobbies... it is the people within the hobby the define the particulars and conditions of what they collect...

And apparently within the pen community the definition of NOS is a pen that may have been made 50 yrs ago, but is new because it has never been inked.

Edited March 30, 2009 by OldGriz