Why are we so alone?

[robastyk]

REMOVED BY AUTHOR

Edited March 10, 2005 by robastyk

[Guest Denis Richard]

Hi Rob,

 

thank you for that interesting history of the hobby. Now, before everything gets organized and more people jump in, can we just wait so that I can afford to build a modest collection ?

 

Denis.

[Maja]

I always suspected there was a pen "Mafia"!

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Just kidding! (sort of)

 

 

Thank you, Rob, for your perspective. I started collecting fountain pens in late 2001 so I had no idea what the 1980's and 1990s were like, for pen collectors.

 

In a way, the Internet has been a blessing and a bane for those of us who collect pens---a bane because now every "Tom, Dick and Harry" antique dealer prices his junkers as if they were "mint" examples...and a blessing because it has brought collectors together and helped to disseminate information on pen history and repair.

I personally think it's much more of a blessing, otherwise I wouldn't have met so many nice people such as yourself and the other good folks on FPN and Pentrace et al.

And what's the fun of collecting pens if you're the only person you know of who does it? I think the Internet took away a lot of this collector "loneliness".....Heck, I wish there were more websites for people who collected pins (pin badges) like I do

[Stompy]

Thanks, Rob, for an interesting piece.

 

To echo Maja, I only really started with the vintage pens this decade. Don't think of myself as a collector, rather a user of fountain pens, and the Internet has opened the world of pens up to me.

 

It's been good to me because I've been able to learn more about pens and buy more of them which increases trade for dealers. But, I can see how a collector feels that an uncouth amateur like me just pushes up prices. There are lots of fields where newcomers are resented by the early adopters. I mean, I was listening to Damien Rice ages ago, now he's becoming a star and everyone is jumping on the bandwagon! I remember configuring my first internet connection using arcane commands in DOS, now every Tom, Dick and Harry wants to be able to just turn on and log in!! etc etc.

 

I have to say that all the people I've come into contact with because of pens have all been nice, generous people - FPNers for example. I'm really looking forward to October and my first pen show.

[antoniosz]

Rob,

 

I appreciate the insight and the historical perspective.

 

Being an agent provocateur I will ask you the following question:

 

Why there is a need for standards?

Pretend for a moment that we are closet anarchists or extreme republicans economists - What is the point for standards other than protecting the financial investment of the people that will impose them?

 

Ebay - shows - internet outliets - boards offer adequate activity opportunities for an equilibrium to be established in terms of prices with statistical excursions up or down. That is all that is needed. As the hobby matures deviations from "equilibrium" will be fewer and less dramatic.

 

Comments?

 

AZ

[Keith with a capital K]

Rob - Aren't you the guy who said this:

 

"I have spent a good part of the last several decades as a bureaucrat - and a very bad one because the one thing I hate nearly as much as fascism is bureaucracy - learning one thing: that rules, protocols, laws are all designed by someone to insure their power over others. Ultimately the excuse is that it protects the community. The fact is that it serves someone's or some group's interest at the expense of some others."

 

I understand the need for standards but also agree with Antonios in that those standards might be improperly used to imposed to protect the investments of the people that make them.

 

The market is subject to many variables and I have seen some pretty chaotic swings in my own time but have started to see some natural balances and standards being established.

[AlexS]

In a way, the Internet has been a blessing and a bane for those of us who collect pens---a bane because now every "Tom, Dick and Harry" antique dealer prices his junkers as if they were "mint" examples...and a blessing because it has brought collectors together and helped to disseminate information on pen history and repair.

I personally think it's much more of a blessing, otherwise I wouldn't have met so many nice people such as yourself and the other good folks on FPN and Pentrace et al.

Don't for a minute think that the internet has been the cause of antique dealers overpricing their junkers! Even back in the days when Rob was cleaning out all the $5 pens at Brimfield there were books (such as Glen Bowen's) and general price guides enough to make dealers think any pen was their ticket to an early retirement. Also, some of the super collectors of the day had networks of pickers, antique dealers, estate sale agents, etc. who skimmed off many (most?) of the more collectable items. Many dealers just pulled the gold nibs from pens and threw out the rest.

 

The internet and eBay in particular may have cut down slightly on the super buys from flea markets and antique shops but have more than made up for that by making more pens available and to a wider audience.

 

Then, as several people have already mentioned, there is the camaraderie and the easy access to information. If pen collectiing ever "grows up" I suspect that it will be because of the internet.

 

My parents are long time collectors of milkglass and I have attended a few of their conventions with them. One of the major laments of the attendees is that so few younger people are taking up the hobby. It seems to me that this forum includes a good number of young members (and not just young compared to me, that would include most of the forum ) I wonder how many of them would be actively acquiring pens if they didn't have the resources the internet provides?

 

Hmmm... I guess the above is just a nodding of the head to what has been said before. Hope theres room for more than one verbose contributor.

 

AlexS

[einv]

the need for standards arises as a prerequisite to take the hobby to mainstream level, as typified by "antiques roadshow". it is only when a complete stranger is able to confidently rattle off standards per rule book can a hobby be said to have joined the mainstream. otherwise, it would remain the prerogative of those in the know, who for reasons of profit keep the standards to themselves. hence a pen sold today as near mint by a dealer need not find a place in that dealer's near mint collection; in fact the dealer may only consider it excellent, but sell it off as near mint because of this lack of standards, and desire for profit.

 

standards can be stifling when they exist, but required for the maturation of a hobby to mainstream. just like formulas in physics textbooks for all to see establish it as a mainstream field, even if actual physicists do not think in terms of those formulas (and they do not). that is, even when standards exist, dealers and collectors can choose to ignore them on a mutual basis to make a deal go through. ultimately, it boils down to relationships based on trust more than adhering to the rule book.

[Maja]

I was just thinking about comic books....Ok, they are not fountain pens but still, there are pretty clearly defined grading standards out there. Of course not everyone grades things the same way, but at least when people talk about a comic that is VF+/NM, you definitely have a good idea of what condition it's in....As Viv (einv) says, it would really help bring this hobby/obsession into the mainstream if there were some guidelines...

 

With regard to selling and repairing, standards would be great! But let's face it, we are talking about a hobby where, on many (most?) pen boards, you can't even openly complain about someone's dismal repair record/reliability because the board owner(s) are scared of liability <_< Consequently, more people are disappointed by someone's service or, worse, get ripped off completely...

 

I think it would be great if an organization like the PCA came out with standards, but it's not an iron-clad guarantee of reliability (someone can do great work but be unreliable...) In a way, as Viv says, it does depend a lot on trust....sometimes blind faith

[PenHero]

Dear Rob,

 

This is a great discussion point!

 

I recall only last year bringing up the subject of establishing standards for grading on another board and mailing list and getting really shot at by some of the "elder statesmen" of the hobby. And then, lo and behold I see an article on the very subject in the newest Pennant!

 

The article was so close to my proposal that the PCA take up this subject that it was quite stunning, though I know the author didn't steal anything from me. The fact is that the PCA **should** be the catalyst for this, but appears disinterested in doing so.

 

I have a thought for you...

 

Why not start another pen collecting organization and commit it to standards and collecting specifically?

 

Have the first order of business be to organize around creating standards of grading, selling, and customer service.

 

I'll bet there's be a loud cry from some quarters along the lines of "impossible" and "how dare they" and so on. If it started working, I'd bet the PCA would run fast to catch up.

 

Rob - and others - any thoughts on this?

 

I think Viv is right. Pen collecting can't / won't be taken very seriously as a mainstream hobby without good standards, and the PCA isn't really that interested. I wonder if the WES has done this?

[Guest Denis Richard]

Jim,

 

As incompetent as I am to bring anything to such a project, it sounds like a very exciting idea. Indeed, why not define standards, push them with whoever is willing to adopt them and see how it spreads. You can't stop an idea whose time has come... (or however that should be sentenced to be grammatically correct )

 

Denis.

[Cam]

I second that, Denis. "Fountain Pen Network" sounds enough like an umbrella group-like name that it could be used. Just takes someone with enough hutzpah (no idea if that's even remotely close to the spelling ...) to get the ball rollling ...

[KendallJ]

Here's the really interesting thing about standards that will ultimately topple any established oligarchy.

 

Standards help NEW collectors, not the existing ones.

 

Codifying how to assess pens helps someone who knows less about the field get more into the field because it shortens their learning curve and gives a method of security and less risk. Set standards, and get NEW collectors to use them and the old farts will have to come along...

 

I think its a great idea!

Edited January 27, 2005 by KendallJ

[PenHero]

Rob,

 

I agree.

 

Kudos to Kendall - very well said.

 

I remain a skeptic. Can the PCA do this? What's the motivation?

 

Something like this would take a committee to do and there's no movement there, and as far as I can tell, there won't be any. Many I've talked to are actually hostile to the idea, or say the job's already done. What baloney.

[Guest Denis Richard]

Now if we could take that insight out of here and lobby the members of the PCA Board we might convert this talk into action. 

With all due respect, Rob, why would you wait on the PCA to define those standards, if, as you and Jim pointed out, the current board shows no interest, or is even hostile to it ?

 

Action can be taken by the people in the hobby, not simply by lobbying the PCA. Last time I checked, the civil right movement did not simply write to the White House and to State Governors saying they would like things to change... I know you like those analogies

 

I think a major brainstorming of the community is in order. Here is a place where people with decades of experience in the hobby, as well as new collectors can meet and share their thoughts on the subject.

 

To complete Kendall's thoughts, not only standards will appeal, not to veterans, but to new comers, but I think it is important that recent collectors have their say in what they think will be useful standards. Letting the old guard alone define everything might give birth to a framework that will not be understandable to the "mainstream" (somehow, I don't like this word, but I can't point out why...).

 

Denis.

Edited January 27, 2005 by Denis Richard

[Cam]

I think there are similar things happening in my own profession -- web development. Actually, to be more accurate, they started to happen about 5 or 6 years ago. Before groups like the Web Standards Project and Maccaws came on the scene, web development was all over the place -- there were no standards. So some people who wanted to make a difference got together and made a difference. Now there are agreed ways of going about doing things. (I've skipped a lot of the story here, but the key point is there -- those people JUST DID IT.)

 

Denis is totally correct. Lets say there were a group of people that wanted to agree a set of standards and put out there into the public domain as an example that could be followed. Just do it. Make it real. Start promoting it. Create a logo that people can display on their website or eBay store/auction or business card that says they adhere to these standards. Over time, it'll stand on it's own merits or die a death, and you can't argue with that.

[Cam]

The previous post was written before I read Rob's reply. I have one other point. If we're looking for an international set of standards, the PCA -- by its very definition -- is perhaps not the best fit for it.

[Guest Denis Richard]

Hi Rob, Cam and everyone,

 

I'll try to be more clear this time. Far from me the idea to develop "FPN Standards". The site is not an organization, but I think what it does is to stimulate reflection and bring us together.

 

What I understand from Jim's post, is the idea of starting to define those standards without the PCA, if it can not be brought in, and hope that if there is any interest in the community, the PCA will continue. I understand it as jump-starting the process.

 

Rob, I am not thinking of creating a new PCA, but of starting that very committee you are speaking about.

 

That said, I'm also concerned by the representativity of the PCA. Let's not forget that it is not an international association, but a local one, as its name suggests. Obviously a committee formed by the PCA would most likely be an United- Americano-American one. Do I also have the wrong impression, or is the board mainly composed of dealers ?

 

If you jump start the concept at a community level, you will have a chance to build something much beyond what you could ever achieve with a formal organization. Carrying on the application of such standards and spreading their use will then need to be done by some kind of formal "society", and if I had my say, it would be an international one.

 

Which brings me to a another question : Is there any international pen collectors society ?

 

Denis.

Edited January 27, 2005 by Denis Richard

[antoniosz]

Interesting comments from everyone. Since the "mainstream" theme has emerged as a common/basic one I will go one step further.

 

Why should the hobby become mainstream? I do not see the need for it.

This is analogous to the "missionary" desire to convert others to FPs. Why?

I prefer the warmth of the small cycle of friends - which is open but I have absolutely no desire to evangelize the world about FPs. Of course this may stem from my personality and I would love to hear opposite arguments.

 

The comparison with philotelism is interesting but is it valid? I would dare to argue that the "pictures" on stamps offer a much more wider historic value than FPs - so the organization/categorization need is much more natural there. There are also significant utilitarian aspects of FPs that make them dramatically different than stamps. The dicothomy of user versus collector is real. I think the recent years have made the user part of our community larger - the collecting part, I am just not sure.

 

If I may make an analogy it would be that FP collecting is similar to antique car collecting (but at a financially more affordable scale). Most car collectors enjoy an occasional ride with their puppies. So do we. Are there standars in antique car collecting?

 

I have to admit that I took a peak at the www.stamps.org and I have to admit that the information to newbies is well organized and nicely presented and I appreciate this and the fact that PCA does not have anything similar together is terrible.

There are some other things there that are simply crazy - browse around the "judging" pages and you will see what I mean.

 

My intuition tells me that we do not need standards. We just need a FAQ.

[KCat]

In answer to Antonios's question - Why should the hobby become mainstream?

 

I'm not sure what others think in regard to this - but there is a sense that if the hobby is mainstream, then it cannot die.

 

Theoretically:

1. establish standards

2. encourage participation of "newbies" who might otherwise be intimidated without those standards

3. keep the hobby alive or even grow it.

 

I'm not sure it works that way - but having watched the operational wargaming community shrink and struggle with countless debates on why it's shrinking and struggling, i can understand why some in the pen community might have those same fears and be seeking ways to absolve them. And of course, there are the debates as to whether the hobby (pens or wargaming) is actually in any danger at all. None of which I have any particular thoughts about since I don't participate in clubs or shows.