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Titivillus
In a pen review "PinarelloOnly" stated the following

QUOTE
... After some phone calls to Fountain Pen Hospital and using my own
experience with my Vanishing Point, Cross and Recife, I drew a conclusion
that not using a top notch ink is the problem. So far, I am right and my
buds at FPH agree with me...." we get people in here all the time buying
$500+ fountain pens and then cheap out on the ink. The next day they want
their money back because the pen writes horrible."


I guess my first question is do people have any proof that "top notch" ink improves a pen's action? I know that there are certain pen & ink combinations out there that seem to inprove the writing quality of a pen.

What is a top notch ink are we talking price or the ink that is recommended by the manufacturer? There are lots of people who swear by quink or Waterman and if you go by price maybe Aurora, OMAS or Montegrappa are the top notch.

I'm not sure if it's a marketing ploy by the companies and distributors/ sellers to push the higher priced ink when the cheaper inks can work the same.

what do you think?

thanks,

Kurt H
Elaine
I guess it depends on what they're referring to as top notch ink.
saintsimon
The statement cited is useless marketing talk in its generalzation, and price says nothing about an inks quality.

It is a trial and error thing, every FP has its own 'top notch' (???) ink: a dry ink for wet writer, a free flowing for a dry writer, a fast drying for a leftie, etc.

An 'expert' should know about viable combinations, independent of the price.
/:)
KCat
I'll say "Hooey" on this one. Cause the word that I think is more appropriate is offensive to some. It starts with "bull" and ends with...

Please - WM is fairly cheap and is one of the best brands out there, IMO. Diamine - great price for 80mls. Great ink.

Just silly - especially since some inks are just "rebottling" or relabeling of other brands.

I do think Lamy black and red are the pits. Are they cheap?

edit: just looked at the new $12 Delta Ink. Odd how the bottle looks identical to Pelikan ink bottle (just a different cap) but the ink is almost 2X the price. (And is more than 2X the price considering I've found Pelikan ink for $4)

yeah.. give me some of that "top notch ink."
Elaine
QUOTE (KCat @ Mar 19 2006, 01:27 PM)
Please - WM is fairly cheap and is one of the best brands out there, IMO. Diamine - great price for 80mls. Great ink.

But that was my point. It's not clear if the guys at FPH consider Waterman's ink to be top notch or not. They certainly sell enough of it. Same with Sheaffer. I've even found NOS Sheaffer there.
DrPJM1
Some pens work best with certain inks but most modern inks are of good quality. I believe that his pen works great with certain ink and that some pens are more finicky than others. If a business that sells pens and inks stocks "bad inks" then they are at fault. Will I ever use Waterman's cheap Florida Blue on an expensive pen? Of course, I will and without hesitation!
Titivillus
QUOTE (Elaine @ Mar 19 2006, 12:37 PM)
QUOTE (KCat @ Mar 19 2006, 01:27 PM)
Please - WM is fairly cheap and is one of the best brands out there, IMO.  Diamine - great price for 80mls.  Great ink.

But that was my point. It's not clear if the guys at FPH consider Waterman's ink to be top notch or not. They certainly sell enough of it. Same with Sheaffer. I've even found NOS Sheaffer there.

I guess you'd have to look at the lsit of inks that they do sell and assume that if they don't sell it it isn't top shelf laugh.gif roflmho.gif roflmho.gif roflmho.gif roflmho.gif roflmho.gif roflmho.gif
antoniosz
QUOTE (Tytyvyllus @ Mar 19 2006, 01:51 PM)
In a pen review "PinarelloOnly" stated the following

QUOTE
... After some phone calls to Fountain Pen Hospital and using my own
experience with my Vanishing Point, Cross and Recife, I drew a conclusion
that not using a top notch ink is the problem. So far, I am right and my
buds at FPH agree with me...." we get people in here all the time buying
$500+ fountain pens and then cheap out on the ink. The next day they want
their money back because the pen writes horrible."


What is a top notch ink are we talking price or the ink that is recommended by the manufacturer? There are lots of people who swear by quink or Waterman and if you go by price maybe Aurora, OMAS or Montegrappa are the top notch.

I'm not sure if it's a marketing ploy by the companies and distributors/ sellers to push the higher priced ink when the cheaper inks can work the same.

what do you think?

thanks,

Kurt H


This is total (Potty Mouth)... Inks certainly have different characteristics and matching an ink with the flow characteristics of the pen is important. But it is not a matter of cheap versus expensive. Understanding the flow characteristics of a pen (wet versus dry) and its propensity for drying (if left unused) allows a knowledgeable user to choose the right ink for each pen. One would hope that a seller should be knowledgeable enough to educate the buyer instead of making generalizations like "cheap" and "top notch". But, it is not unusual for the typical brick and mortar FP shop employee to be ignorant of FPs.

AZ
weepstah
I second the hooey! ptui! on this. The idea that a "premium" (in price, anyway) ink will solve your ink flow problems just doesn't work for me. I've tried numerous kinds of ink, and I the only ink that I *might* have had a problem with was a bottle of MB. I have yet to run into a SITB situation with any ink, period - I guess I've been lucky in that respect.

weepstah
KendallJ
QUOTE (weepstah @ Mar 19 2006, 04:27 PM)
I second the hooey! ptui!

third.

Screwy! Hooey! Ptui!
KCat
QUOTE (Elaine @ Mar 19 2006, 12:37 PM)
QUOTE (KCat @ Mar 19 2006, 01:27 PM)
Please - WM is fairly cheap and is one of the best brands out there, IMO.  Diamine - great price for 80mls.  Great ink.

But that was my point. It's not clear if the guys at FPH consider Waterman's ink to be top notch or not. They certainly sell enough of it. Same with Sheaffer. I've even found NOS Sheaffer there.

i think my assumption is that "top notch" implies high-cost. Especially since they said people "cheap out" on the ink. Perhaps i am drawing too straight a line frome one point to the other.
Elaine
I don't recall what they had in the store but their web site lists the following

Noodlers $12.50
Private Reserve $7.50
Visconti $12.00
Montblanc $10.50
Omas $14.00
Aurora $10.50
Pelikan $4.50
Sheaffer $6.50
Waterman $8.00
Quink $7.55

Ok, so now I'm very curious as to what they consider top notch ink. I don't know the sizes of the bottles. But Top Notch/Shelf going by price would be Omas.
Apollo
Using an expensive brand of ink to fix a pen that writes horribly is nonsense and the sales person who told him that was just interested in making a sale.

You expect me to believe that if a $500 plus pen can't write with a basic free flowing ink like Parker Quink Black or Waterman Florida Blue, its going to write better with Omas or Visconti ink? Nonsense. Most likely there's a problem with the pen, not the ink.
Elaine
Ah, should have read the post that was referred to. He's talking Omas and Aurora. Also there were some great responses. I think Giovanni's suggestion to go back to a different ink now that the flow is better is a great suggestion. I'd love to know the outcome.

Whoa, yup caught in a circular loop here (I'm responding to two offshoots of one topic) smile.gif
Viseguy
I posed this question to my friend Pete, and he said it's -- and I quote -- "nonsense, utter nonsense, gibberish; jargon, jabber, mere words, hocus-pocus, fustian, rant, bombast, balderdash, palaver, flummery, verbiage, babble, baverdage, baragouin, platitude, niaiserie; inanity; flap-doodle; rigmarole, rodomontade; truism; nugae canorae; twaddle, twattle, fudge, trash, garbage, humbug; poppy-cock; stuff, stuff and nonsense; bosh, rubbish, moonshine, wish-wash, fiddle-faddle; absurdity...." OK, Pete, calm down...

In other words, what Pete is trying to say is... it's HOOEY!
Blorgy
The late great Frank Dubiel described some other problems that could be caused by the wrong ink:
" ... At least MB admits their pens crack easily and leaves it at that. If Omas pens cracked as easily, Omas would probably say its due to Waterman ink. If an Omas clip fell off it would be due to Sheaffer ink. If the trim falls off thats caused by Pelikan ink. " biggrin.gif
weepstah
But wait! A differing opinon from an American Express Mag, Departures.

QUOTE
Ink

The ink you use can be as personal a choice as that of stationery, but in this case the focus is on viscosity and color palette. "The challenge for fountain pen ink manufacturers is to create brilliant inks that aren't too washy," says Weden. "When ink is wet it looks one way, but it can often look faded when dry. The best artists' inks—that is, those used with brushes and artists' pens—are highly pigmented and of excellent quality. But they are also waterproof and colorfast. Ink for fountain pens has to be non-waterproof or it won't flow through the ink feed of the pen. The best inks are those that look brilliant even when they are dry."

As a result, Weden says, fountain pen inks tend to be watery compared to artists' inks, and they have much less brilliance and less interesting color. Says Pollack: "A nice ink is characterized by its rich color pigment and density. But its quality also depends a lot on the way it works with the pen. If you have an 18-karat-gold soft nib on a fountain pen with great ink, it will most likely perform very well." (See Great Penmanship.)

Most pen manufacturers produce their own ink to match their pens, and some papermakers manufacture ink to complement their paper. The type of ink you work with—liquid or paste—depends on the type of pen you have. "About fifty percent of our clients use a fountain pen," says Caponi, "but some people can't be bothered and use a rollerball instead. It still has liquid ink, but with a ballpoint mechanism. Rollerballs cause less hand fatigue because they use liquid ink. Ballpoints use an oil-based paste ink, so you have to apply more pressure to the paper."

Weden, whose store Signatoré carries a wide selection of inks, believes that the ink you use makes a big difference. "Just as there are different levels of paint, there are different levels of ink," she points out. "If a fine painter uses low-quality paints, his art will be limited." The ink you use also makes a difference when it comes to life span—of both the ink itself and possibly the pen. "What's left of an ink should be discarded after one year because the pigment tends to pull away from the base," Weden explains. "The best inks last longer, but you still will want to use only fresh ink. Bad inks can clog a pen and result in irregular ink flow."

The top ink manufacturing company in Weden's opinion is Rubinato, based in Italy. (Signatoré imports it.) "Rubinato inks are highly pigmented, and feature beautiful, unique colors," states Weden. "They are made from plant pigments and are very high grade. Rubinato is more experimental with its colors, more artsy." Those colors include turquoise, brown, purple, and Bordeaux. Rubinato also makes scented inks, such as lavender, violet, honey, and mint. The highest of the high-grade inks, Weden believes, is Rubinato's Gnocchi, a deep black ink.

Of the fountain pen manufacturers that also produce ink, Weden cites the Italian manufacturer Omas as the best. "They are fabulous," she says. "They produce an incredible gray ink that no one else makes. It's very translucent, and it makes interesting shading, creating both dark and light within the letters. It has a very old-fashioned look, and it's wonderful on parchment paper. When you write with it, the ink takes on a character all its own." Another great Omas color, according to Weden, is sepia. "It really looks like the coloring in old photographs," she says.

"Omas ink is organic, and among the purest on the market," Caponi remarks."It is made from a vegetal color base. Many other inks are made with chemical detergents, which can be quite harsh and can even erode the inside of a pen over time. And the organic compounds make the ink more fluid. It has a much smoother flow due to the fact that there are fewer particles in it, especially carbon, to block the fountain pen feeder, which is a very thin channel." According to Caponi, four of the most popular Omas ink colors are Vespucci red ("it's a very deep red, not fire-engine red or burgundy"), Roma blue ("it's extremely vibrant"), violet, and sepia brown.

"Omas ink is wonderful," agrees Pollack, who also admires ink by Montblanc. "You can find Montblanc colors such as reds, turquoise, greens, browns, burgundy, and South Sea blue." Pollack also favors inks by the French manufacturer J. Herbin. "They have some beautiful, fun colors, such as aubergine."

Another top choice is ink blended by S.T. Dupont. "S.T. Dupont's ink, which comes in bottles and cartridges, is exquisite," Weden says. "It's the finest ink from France, better than Cartier's. Its viscosity is thick and rich, and yet it flows beautifully through a fountain pen. And the cartridges are "international-size," so they can fit in a Waterman, Montblanc, Jorg Hysek, and Cartier pen as well. But the colors are traditional." S.T. Dupont's best ink colors, in her opinion, are Bleu Nuit, a midnight blue, and sienna brown.

While the superior inks are considerably more expensive than the lesser ones, they are still quite reasonably priced. For example, Rubinato's Gnocchi costs $32.50 for a 100 cc bottle, Bordeaux is $12, and its flower-scented inks are $14.95. "But it is relative," Weden notes. "Normally a bottle of ink costs about $10." (In fact, S.T. Dupont ink sells for just that; Omas ink is priced at $10.95 for a 2.6-ounce bottle.)


All I can say is.... blehhhhhhh! sick.gif

The complete article can be located here
Anne-Sophie
That "premium ink" talk is only associated with price, the same is true with "premium pens".

I don't have the money for either but I have enjoyed the hobby for many years with my "cheap inks and pens".

I can only laugh when salespeople equate expensive with quality, my fellow foutain pen users who have the mean or the desire to tangle to expensive pen have related many times how they had to send their "premium pens" back for a tune up.

Meanwhile I'm quietly enjoying my 20$ Lamys and many Esterbrooks lovers have as much fun for a $1 to $10 dollars for each pen.


And I can report that Waterman Florida Blue is the most dependable and beautiful ink.
bobioden
QUOTE (Elaine @ Mar 19 2006, 03:13 PM)
I don't recall what they had in the store but their web site lists the following

Noodlers $12.50
Private Reserve $7.50
Visconti $12.00
Montblanc $10.50
Omas $14.00
Aurora $10.50
Pelikan $4.50
Sheaffer $6.50
Waterman $8.00
Quink $7.55

Ok, so now I'm very curious as to what they consider top notch ink. I don't know the sizes of the bottles. But Top Notch/Shelf going by price would be Omas.

All of these inks are different sizes also. The Pelikan at $4.50 is for 1 oz. Waterman and Private Reserve are 50ml or 2 oz. Noodlers and Aurora are 3 oz.

So price wise they are all pretty similar.

Bob
Ink Stained Wretch
QUOTE (bobioden @ Mar 25 2006, 02:36 AM)
QUOTE (Elaine @ Mar 19 2006, 03:13 PM)
I don't recall what they had in the store but their web site lists the following

Noodlers $12.50
Private Reserve $7.50
Visconti $12.00
Montblanc $10.50
Omas $14.00
Aurora $10.50
Pelikan $4.50
Sheaffer $6.50
Waterman $8.00
Quink $7.55

Ok, so now I'm very curious as to what they consider top notch ink. I don't know the sizes of the bottles. But Top Notch/Shelf going by price would be Omas.

All of these inks are different sizes also. The Pelikan at $4.50 is for 1 oz. Waterman and Private Reserve are 50ml or 2 oz. Noodlers and Aurora are 3 oz.

So price wise they are all pretty similar.

Actually, the Noodler's isn't 3 fluid ounces. We've had a discussion about the topic here. This is a good reason to measure everything liquid in ml so that we're all talking about the same thing.
Titivillus
QUOTE
Actually, the Noodler's isn't 3 fluid ounces. We've had a discussion about the topic here. This is a good reason to measure everything liquid in ml so that we're all talking about the same thing.


Actually the three bottles of Noodlers ink I measued with a syringe were within a few percent of 3 liquid ounces. wink.gif

k
The Noble Savage
As we are all thinking, what is premium ink? Is it Montblanc ink? I would have to say a big NO!!! I find that MB inks are watery and somewhat washed out and in fact, the MB black looks like Private Reserve Grey Flannel. I mean MB does have a few nice inks but I think they are over priced and nowhere near a better ink than Private Reserve or Parker Quink. AS far as I am concerned, the salesman (or Woman) is just trying to make a few buck over on the customer by giving the customer misinformation.

I dont really see any ink on the market that I would label as (Potty Mouth) ink. Maybe Levenger ink? However, I love levenger ink and I really love the flow that the ink provides. On the other hand, Levenger inks are very Susceptible to feathering on cheaper papers, in fact more so than any other ink I have ever used. Regardless, I still use Levenger inks and I continue to enjoy the colors they have both in the classic colors and in the wild colors.

But as I said, I dont see really low grade quality ink out there that major pen stores are selling to the public. Even the Duke ink is some really good ink to use and that is straight out of china. So to say cheaper ink is inferior is really not true. There are cheaper inks in terms of price but as far as quality, I dont see one that is superior in quality over the other. It is very subjective and not all vintage pens like the modern, highly saturated inks. So it depends on personal preference and on a pen to pen basis.

Anyways, this is an interesting conversation that you brought up Kurt!!!

TNS
KCat
QUOTE (weepstah @ Mar 24 2006, 09:28 PM)
All I can say is.... blehhhhhhh! sick.gif

The complete article can be located here

man! HOOEY HOOEY HOOEY.

The waterproof and colorfast qualities are incidentalink. It's the pigment vs. dye issue. Most of us know by now of Noodler's and other waterproof FP inks that are safe for FPs. And we know they don't contain pigment or shellac - the main reasons "artists" inks are a danger to our pens.

Omas and S.T. Dupont are the best inks? OMAS is good - but to raise it above any other ink out there... yet more hooey.

there's so much in the article I'd like to pick apart but don't have time or energy to do so. No bias from this Weden person, eh? I don't suppose it has anything to do with the person owning an upscale pen shop?

I agree blehhhhh sick.gif
Ink Stained Wretch
QUOTE (Tytyvyllus @ Mar 25 2006, 09:30 AM)
QUOTE
Actually, the Noodler's isn't 3 fluid ounces. We've had a discussion about the topic here. This is a good reason to measure everything liquid in ml so that we're all talking about the same thing.


Actually the three bottles of Noodlers ink I measued with a syringe were within a few percent of 3 liquid ounces. wink.gif

Within how many percent? Did you measure in mL?

I still have a bit left in my first bottle of Noodler's Black, the Noodler's color I use the most, so I haven't been able to do my own test yet.

Have you checked the volume of the 4½ ounce, by weight, Boston Rounds bottles?
Titivillus
QUOTE (Ink Stained Wretch @ Mar 26 2006, 07:13 AM)
QUOTE (Tytyvyllus @ Mar 25 2006, 09:30 AM)
QUOTE
Actually, the Noodler's isn't 3 fluid ounces. We've had a discussion about the topic here. This is a good reason to measure everything liquid in ml so that we're all talking about the same thing.


Actually the three bottles of Noodlers ink I measued with a syringe were within a few percent of 3 liquid ounces. wink.gif

Within how many percent? Did you measure in mL?

I still have a bit left in my first bottle of Noodler's Black, the Noodler's color I use the most, so I haven't been able to do my own test yet.

Have you checked the volume of the 4½ ounce, by weight, Boston Rounds bottles?

I posted my results in the other thread. And did nothing by weight

k
Ink Stained Wretch
QUOTE (Tytyvyllus @ Mar 26 2006, 09:46 AM)
I posted my results in the other thread. And did nothing by weight

Yes, I see it. So the two 3 ounce bottles you measured held 81 and 85 mL which comes out to 90% to 94% of 90 mL, which you calculated to be 2.7 to 2.87 fluid ounces or 90% to almost 96% of 3 ounces.

I wonder if anyone's used up one of the round, eyedropper bottles yet so they can measure it's capacity?
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