Occluded letter "e" s are certainly recognizable, but they bug me. <_<
So I'm writing with finer nibs these days.
Anyone else?
They didn't bug me before.

Jeen with 2 "e" s

Do you have an example? I'm not quite sure what that is. (I'm dumbe )

Hi Chupie,
It's when you write a small case letter e and the space gets filled in by ink.
J

So that it looks more a like a clunky "c"?

Exactly. Clunkie "c" s bug me.


J

no.

Yup, they bug me too. Plus sometimes I don't "loop" it well enough so it looks like a "c" or sometimes even an "i" without the dots, which also makes two of them look like a "u". So Jeen would look like "Jun" or "Jiin" or Jccn" I'm hoping careful practice will make this prob go away...

Can't say that I've really looked or noticed this so it must not be a problem for me.

Kurt H

Doesn't bother me at all. Many of my letters steep that way.

David

That's the thing.
I never noticed before, and it never bugged me.
Ignorance is bliss I guess.
Now I'm e - sessed.
Hope I didn't open a can of occluded e worms for anybody.

J

I am an ignorant southpaw. You're lucky if any of my es look like es, occluded or not. My ds are worse. As aint too good neither. Bs could use a little work. Ks are krap. You get the idea, right?

Peachez, feel free to use your ignorance as an excuse, but not your being left-handed . Before you think another such thought, take a look at Ms. Ann Finley's exquisite handwriting and then remember, she's a southpaw too !!!

Just write your lowercase "e" bigger. I like the way medium and broad FP nibs force me to write bigger, which usually beautifies my handwriting automatically.

Jeen, your solution is exactly what Susan Wirth (Godess of nibs) recommended to people who have letters that fill in. This was at a seminar on choosing the nib for your hand.

Hi Goodwhiskers,

I tried writing larger, but it felt like walking at an abnormally long stride, something I can do, but it didn't feel natural.

Elaine,
I'd love to have attended the seminar.
Wonder what she said.

Jeen

Same here, guess I'm just going to have to stick with Fine nibs.

-Bruce

Jeen: Oh, OK.

That seminar by Susan Wirth does sound fascinating.

Hi Jeen,

I am OCD about those occluded es too, and I always have been... So I prefer to write with M-nibs and italic nibs up to 1.1 mm rather than B nibs . For B nibs I have to write much larger than I normally do, which I find strenuous for long periods of time . M nibs and italic nibs up to 1.1 mm just feel natural to me for writing.

Warm regards, Wim

I get the same problem sometimes. It particularly bothers me when I read the word later, and I can't tell what the original letter was. The word clears the concept, but this shouldn't happen when real penmanship is concened.

As Peterson teaches: slide! Slide to the right as you write the ascender, then loop and pull toward the center of your body. This has helped me a lot, not only on the e's, but on ascenders of b, d, f, h, k and l.

Wim,

OK, you said, not me, OCD.

Paolimd,
Excellent recommendation. Thank you!

J

Hadn't even thought about those occlusions. Uh Oh...... :ph34r:

This isn't a criticism, but i've noticed that alot of broad nib users who've posted images of their writing essentially print.

Here is why I don't care about occluded e's.

I reworked my handwriting a few years ago using the Sassoon Better Handwriting book. this involved analyzing and diagnosing problems areas with my handwriting and then reworking my hand on different levels. One of the basic principles is illustrated below. Legibility is NOT about the "perfect" formation of your letters. It is about differentiation of your letter forms within a writing rythym.



So when I analyzed my handwriting my e's never came up as the problem. Why? because the e's look enough diffent from i's that occlusion really isn't an issue. In the example below you can see that "depreciation", "income", "indirectly", "provide", "itself" are all words with different variations of i and e, and frankly the two don't look alike (ok, the first e in "depreciation" is probably the closest, but still not mistakeable).



Part of the reason for that is because I based the hand on an italic form rather than a "cursive" form which frankly makes differentiation tougher for many letters. In my examples, the i's emphasizes a straight descender, more than my e's. Because the italic is based upon the first "zig zag" above a straight downstroke with a join to the next that is much more angular, the e's are differentiated, not in their loop, but in their join. Look at the first i and the e in "indirectly" and you can see the contrast.

If you are a Palmer cursive person, well then you're dissadvantaging yourself as you have a tougher time differentiating. Note the Palmer letterforms below. The i and e are only differentiated in the loop. In fact, palmer relies on the swoops and loops for differentiation. This is probably the biggest reason I stopped using the cursive form. It really isn't as legible isn't as forgiving for poor letter forms. If you are a beautiful palmer script person, then you have no reason to change, but if not, then consider it.



I know it's turned into a commercial for italic, but I've really found that it is a great form for everyday handwriting. There is a reason that italic was the key form of the pre-printing reinassance. It is faster, more legible, more fault tolerant.

Note, the italic also allows me to have a wide range of nib sizes and keep legibility. Yes, witha big nib, the script gets bigger, but it stays legible. examle below contrasts the two with my ItaliFine nib. My biggest nib is a Sailor Zoom, and even though my writing is bigger and EVERYTHING is occluded with it, it's still legible.

Kendall,
Thanks for your input and scan.
Found it very interesting.
In looking over my writing, my occluded "e"s are not easlily mistaken
for another letter either, and I suppose my striving for open "e"s has
more to do with aesthetics than function.


J