OK - here's what I think I've figured out. Noodler's black and luxury blue are the only two of the Noodlers inks (either their label or Swisher) that are tested not only to be waterproof but also resistant to alcohol, bleach, and other chemicals. In other words, the most durable of their line. Everything else that is labelled waterproof is not tested to the same level.

So then there are the "waterproof" or "eternal" inks (which I'm taking to mean the same thing - but I could be wrong) are tested against water but no other chemicals. So I think I've got the Noodler's "eternal" inks are sold via pendemonium including legal lapis which is exclusive to pendemonium, the Noodler's waterproof inks are sold through their vendor network including swisher. Swisher also has the Swisher line made by Noodlers but which do not include any waterproof inks. Swisher also has the Swishmix inks which apparently seem to be waterproof on some level but these are the most confusing as they aren't the "contract" ink Swisher used to sell - are they waterproof to the same level as the "eternal" and other "waterproof" inks?

Sheesh. This is far too confusing. Here's my dilemma. I really need some sort of "eternal" ink for check writing etc... Since I currently have no black ink that would make a good choice but I just don't use black that often in my daily use - I mostly use blues, greens and burgundy, but it is the most waterproof. the luxury blue seems appealing but the cost/small quantity for a frequent use ink doesn't seem like the best deal. Legal lapis is an OK color but I admit I'm not knocked out by the somewhat faded appearance (I like florida blue, american blue, midnight blues as a point of reference). If I'm going to pay a premium for the waterproof charachteristics I'd like it to be a color I really like.

Any suggestions or help sorting all this out would be most appreciated!

The other appeal of LB is the smell. Yes, I like the smell of LB. Yes, it's definitely more expensive than the others.

In previous posts Nathan said (don't quote me) something to the effect that the eternals such as LL are 95% fraud proof of black and LB, so they waterproof inks are not far off. Not sure what the added ingredient is to make the ink as fraud proof as black. Interestingly black is lower in price than the eternals/waterproofs. Why is black ink so much easier to make fraud proof, while blue is so costly???

If you like Florida Blue, try Swisher/Noodlers Gulfstream Blue - it's close, but permanent/eternal/waterproof. I also like Swisher/Noodlers Aquamarine Blue, which is what I keep in my Blue Carbonesque VP and use often for check writing.

The Swishmix inks are mixes of waterproof/permanent inks and nonwaterproof inks. Part of the ink will wash out once dry, but the waterproof component will still remain.

Here's a sample, but realize the Florida Blue was done with a narrower nib and the Gulfstream Blue with a wider nib, which affects the appearance somewhat.

I agree 1000% !
While working this morning on the index of FPN ink reviews for "Ink Reviews" this morning, I spent an hour and a half straightening out the tangled skein of ink varieties created by Noodler's and the retailers Swisher, Pendemonium and Art Brown. The results will be included in the next edition (a full rough draft) of the indices, later this week.

Yes, Noodler's terminology and marketting are a mess

Southpaw, you must have left your Sheherazade unused for a couple of days. Your Waterman BB looks a little darker than usual

Art Brown? Great, another one to throw into the mix

I look forward to your index. It appears that the eyedropper 4.5 ounce swishmix glacier blue is on sale for a great price - more ink for the dollar so to speak. It looks a little on the lighter side but not as light as Legal Lapis. I'll check the reviews section to see if there is a review of it.

Ummm . . . maybe, but don't remember. It's been quite a while since I did that sample. Also, keep in mind that it's a wet medium, which would darken it up a bit.

Here are some links to the Digital Ink Sampler (DIS™ ) I made a while back. It may be a little outdated, but may still be of help to sort out the different types of Noodler's inks .

Links to DIS™:
the DIS™ spreadsheet (size 2.5 MB)
zipped DIS™ spreadsheet (size 1.6 MB)
DIS™ output printed to pdf - so, limited (size 1.4 MB)

Warm regards, Wim

Yes, it's confusing. Nathan cuts some very fine distinctions in his terminology, particularly "bullet proof" vs. "eternal" or "contract" or "fraudproof". But according to Nathan himself, Black and Luxury Blue are NOT the only inks that resist detergent, ammonia, bleach, etc. All of the waterproof/eternal/contract inks do. See, for example, this post to a.c.p-p. As I understand it, all of these inks hold up to washing, bleaching, etc., to the point where the paper disintegrates or liquefies. The only difference is that Black (and Polar Black) and Luxury Blue will hold up even after the paper has liquefied. For practical purposes, the difference is meaningless, IMO, because, in either case, the writing survives until the paper is rendered useless. If I were in Nathan's shoes, I'd land on one of those descriptors (personally, I like "eternal") and apply it to the entire link of fraudproof inks. The distinction between bullet proof and eternal, etc. isn't particularly helpful.

I have Glacier Blue. It's quite a bit lighter in color than Legal Lapis! I want you to know that before you make your decision about 4.5 ounces of it.

I like Glacier Blue's color. The color after drying is like Waterman Florida Blue but just the slightest bit lighter and grayer. As with almost any FP ink, the color when dry on paper is not the color in the bottle (and the Swisher website carefully says so, even).

Glacier Blue also needs "good" paper because of its Swisher fast-dry specification.
In any paper that's "mediocre" or worse, Glacier Blue expands aggressively, shadows heavily and bleeds through if your nib's point lingers too long in one place or crosses the same place more than twice while writing.
I tried it at work for a while but couldn't keep using it there because I can't choose either the copier paper or my students' paper.
The Swisher website does suggest several "good" papers they've tested for their three lines of fast-drying inks (Noodler's Swishmix, Swisher Noodler's Waterproof and Swisher['s own label, not waterproof]). Some of those papers are very reasonably priced (and some are even recycled!).
Glacier Blue's drying time is impressive indeed.

Viseguy and I have been a bit down this road, backchannel, and unlike me, he has, in lawyerly [sic] fashion, properly parsed and read Nathan's writings and implications to come up with his assessment.

Unlike the ink moguls, I suspect that to get a new and different line of inks off the ground, he cut the several deals with those that he thought would benefit him most at the outset. Thus, we have the Pendemonium, Art Brown, Swisher and other exclusives, often with different qualifying names.

My sense of order and perspective would be well served if Nathan would publish a color chart with the special designators listed, what they mean specifically, and who has either exclusive or shared exclusive rights to those designators.

Meanwhile, I continue to muddle in the puddle of pleasure known as Noodler's!

Thanks for the input - I haven't pulled the trigger on the Glacier Blue - particularly issues with feathering, etc... I use whatever paper the office provides, mostly office depot pads and regular old copy paper so I don't think that is a good characteristic for me.

It appears the feathering issue applies to all the swisher noodler's inks, including the waterproof, correct? Does it also apply to Noodler's basic black and/or legal lapis?

With Noodler's inks, the dependency on "good" paper (otherwise known as feathering and bleeding) is only an issue with the two Swisher-exclusive, fast-drying lines.

Noodler's own label, which also is used on the Eel line, the Electric/Fluorescent line, the Art Brown exclusive Legal Blue and the Pendemonium exclusives, goes on bottles containing inks that behave excellently on all writing paper, including calculator tape and newsprint.

For left-handed writers, the Noodler's-own-label inks don't dry quickly enough, which is one reason why Swisher advertises the fast-drying lines for left-handed writers.

Not necessarily. It varies based on ink, nib, and paper. Some of their regular inks dry just fine. Others, such as Ottoman Azure and Ottoman Rose take longer and can be problematic.

wimg -

Just looked through your spreadsheet. Awesome!!! As far as the naming of these inks go, I agree with the majority (well, I think the majority, anyway) in saying that settling on one name for the inks would reduce confusion. I think I like Eternal as well, but any of them would work.

From the other pen dealers that Nathan works with, I think we just have to leave it up to them to name their own inks. After all, all of the ink sold under various manufacture labels can be traced back to handful of "real" manufacturers.

I like all the choices, even if it is a little confusing.


weepstah

PS - did you catch my secret message in this post written with Blue Ghost?

Well I think I'm going to throw in the towel and just stick with Noodler's black ...

Hi weepstah,

Thank you for your kind words .

With regards to different Noodler's inks, well, I think it only got worse over the past year. With all the special inks just for a single retailer, that Nathan made, the number of differently labeled inks from his little factory must number well over 120...

Warm regards, Wim

Hi Viseguy, I did read Nathan's post that you included in your post. I don't know how to "point" to one of my old posts on FPN, but I got LL ink on my shirt and thought it was ruined but the ink did wash out. I didn't wash it, so I don't know what was used. I was told no bleach was used??? Anyway, in summary the waterproof inks are resistant to bleach, but not bleach proof as the bulletproof inks such as the black, LB, and I believe the new reformulated polar black. so in my understanding there's bulletproof, then there's eternal/contract/waterproof, then there's the regular inks of Noodler's that are not waterproof.

Yes and the rest of the regulars exhibit varying degrees of water and sun resistance. Some of the regulars are darn near as water resistant as the eternals/contracts etc. while other regulars are no better than WM Florida Blue in water resistance, and that ain't much.

I believe the bulletproof/waterproof/eternal/legal/contract/fraud whatever inks only exhibit those qualities when they dry on paper containing cellulose fibers, which your shirt most likely did not contain.

Hi centurion,

Just search for and find the post that you want to refer to, and click on "Post" at the top left of the message. This will pop up a dialog window with the reference to that particular post on FPN. Just do a copy, or Ctrl-C, as the link is highlighted/selected already, and close the dialog window.

Next go to the thread where you wanted to reply, add a reply, and in the message box do a paste of the link you copied earlier, or press Ctrl-V, which will do the same.

Alternatively, click on the "http://" button, paste the link on the first line of the dialog that pops up, click ok, and enter a description on the next line of the dialog, then ok again. That'll add a link with a description.

HTH, warm regards, Wim

OK, here are the posts from Nathan that I was looking for earlier re the bleach-resistance of the "eternal" vs. "bulletproof" inks. (I was looking in a.c.p-p; I forgot that they were posted here).

It was not quite as I'd remembered it. The bottom line appears to be that Black and the other bulletproof inks are completely bleach PROOF, whereas the "eternal" inks are bleach RESISTANT, i.e., they will fade if enough bleach is applied -- but, it takes a LOT of bleach, and the alteration will be obvious.

Here are the posts:

This:
http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/in...indpost&p=41205

and this (and also the follow-ups):
http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/in...indpost&p=33141

and this
http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/in...indpost&p=33172

which includes this comment of Nathan's re using eternal inks to write checks:

"All eternals are safe on safety check paper....you see, a forger has to be VERY careful when bleaching. With the eternal ink it takes so much bleach to fade it that he/she WILL also fade out the check background itself! A bank clerk would have to be a mad fool to pass such a check...akin to cashing a check doctored in crayon by a three year old....highly unlikely."

For things that absolutely must last and for my checks Noodler's Black neat is what I use too.

But I must say that I've used household bleach and isopropyl alcohol on Noodler's Gulf Stream Blue and it looks the same after the soaking as it did before it. I also use mixtures of the other Noodler's waterproof inks in all my fountain pens. While fraud is something I must watch out for the danger to the stuff I write is mostly from water, so those waterproof inks are just about addictive to me.

I just wish that Noodler's Nightshade were among the waterproof inks. I'm currently seeing both how much Noodler's Black I need to mix with Nightshade to get it to leave a readable line after a good soaking, and also trying to see how little Noodler's Black I have to add so that I get as much of that odd Nightshade color as possible on the page.

A mix of Black + Iraqi Indigo and/or Hellbender Red in some proportion or other might give you a Nightshade-ish color , and it would be completely waterproof.

Great references! Thanks, Viseguy ! A link to your message has been pinned and locked in "Ink Reviews."

Lots of good information and I appreciate everyone's input. Most of my notes at work are kept in archival files anyway so I have less concern about the waterproof qualities (good thing too since Waterman Florida Blue is a favorite and that apparently has close to zero resistance). But I had no black inks and no waterproof so realistically Noodler's black seemed like a good, if not really inspiring, choice to write checks and handle the tasks that really need that kind of permanency.

I just loaded my little Vector flighter with Noodler's black and it is certainly a good deal darker than the Quink cartridges I'd been using. I've yet to try my new bottle of American Blue bought to fill the slot currently occupied by a close to empty bottle of Florida Blue - I'll have to flush something out so I can give it a try.

Oh wretched one,

I am dabbling in a pseudo scientific ink mixing experiment - some of the inks I'm using are the waterproof type, so let me see if I can come up with something that's close to Nightshade.

Please note that I will be working from a couple of sources, so the results may not be accurate. I don't actually own any Nightshade, so I'll be guessing a bit. In any case, give me a few days and I'll report back...

weepstah

Great! Thanks, I'll look forward to it.