Hi Folks

Went to do my banking yesterday afternoon, paid in and wrote a couple of cheques (spelt checks for you folks in the USA ).

Was suprised to hear the cashier tell me that I should not be using a FP to complete cheques as ink is not immediatly permenant and I should use a BP in future!!!!

Pointed out to her that I was using Noodlers BP Black ink which was permenant and waterproof, she went off and spoke to her colleague/boss and came back saying "it doesn't matter you really should use a BP", I asked if this was now a bank condition as I had been using a FP for over two years without comments or problems, she replied "no, its just a matter of security" I pointed out that 90% of the BP's in the bank were empty anyway!

Anyone else have this issue?

I will continue to use my FP!!

Kind regards
NIGEL

I have been told that their scanners have issue with ink colors other than blue or black and cannot read them.

Since I rarely use anything other than Noodlers Hunter on checks (or cheques, for those of you across the pond) I raised an eyebrow.

Well, since most fountain pen inks are non-permanent, my guess is that bank tellers are trained that fountain pens overall should not be accepted.

After all, with most of the inks we use, some water would wash away a signature.

So it's probably easier for them to just set a general rule...no fountain pens.

Just guessing...I could be wrong.

Yes, I could understand it if I was using any other colour other than black or blue, but this wasnt a colour issue, it was the fact I was using a FP instead of a BP, what suprised me is (and I forgot to write this in original post) that she also said that "they could ask me to re-issue cheques in future if they were not wriiten in permanant ink".

I have since spoken to someone else who has told me providing the ink is permanent it does not matter whether I use a FP or BP but most banking staff beleive (wrongly) that only BP ink is permanent!

Kind regards
NIGEL

Bank staff aren't fountain pen enthusiasts. They don't know, or care, one whit if there are cellulose reactive inks like Noodler's to be had. Next time, just assure them that it's just as permanent as any rollerball or ballpoint, and if you're challenged, tell the bank staff that you'll personally give them a tenner if they can prove otherwise.

Folks in service positions are used to encountering people who think they know what they're talking about but don't. As such, you have a set of rules and one-liners to which to adhere. The handbook says that fountain pens and rollerballs, with their liquid inks, aren't permanent, and thus shouldn't be used. They'd rather repeat that to their customers than check with the customer which brand of ink they use, to explain why Quink Permanent isn't *actually* permanent but that Noodler's is, etc.

This sort of thing is common. I'm do computers for a living and for fun, but have been told many times in many situations that I must use IE on Windows to do this-or-that. When I know that the technical requirements for the site can be met by whatever OS and browser I'm using I know it'll work just fine when I'm using my own configuration. If I rang support and asked why something unrelated to the software I was using wasn't working they'd just tell me the party line: you need to be using IE on Windows. I could fight and say "Ah, but that isn't the problem!" ...and it is at that point we'd be at an impasse; dear worker knows what the manual says, and I am insisting otherwise. She doesn't know or care about all of the technical background which might support my position, and there's no reason she should. Instead of fighting about it, I usually confirm the problem exists in IE on Windows, and then tell them I'm using that configuration once I know it isn't *my* problem.

As far as having you reissue checks- I'm not sure how it works in the UK, but in the US the State insures banks, and the band also refunds instances of fraud and forged or altered checks. It's in their interest to make sure you aren't writing checks that could be easily washed and be made out in new amounts, because they're the ones footing the bill when you tell them that this-or-that check is not one you wrote.

Aaron

I think what the bank teller said makes sense, given the general impression people have about fountain pens. I used fountain pens for quite a while (6 years) before joining FPN and before then never heard of Noodler's. In fact, most stores I frequented do not carry anything but the standard Skrip, Quink and occassionally Lamy. None of them are "bulletproof". Then again, I also was more of a user of fountain pens and didn't "discovering" more about fountain pens. I bought two FP and just used them without further thought and went on my way to write.

Actually, ball points are quite easily erased as are most rollerballs (gel pens are all but indelible --- note this category at Office Depot http://www.officedepot.com/a/browse/check-...536&Ne=100/ ) --- see Greg Clark's article on this --- while aside from the inks intended to be eradicable, fountain pen ink is all but impossible to remove w/o damaging the check surface.

Ask the clerk if they know of a company selling ball points w/ a security challenge like to Noodler's:

http://www.noodlersink.com/challenge.html

(BTW, someone should mention to Nathan he's an up-date behind --- prize should be $5,000? hopefully he'll fix it this year)

Or just get a security pen w/ a perforating wheel.

William

But a bank should accept a check even if it's on butcher paper with a crayon


They can suggest but at the end of the day it's your money and you can write on fruit and have it cashed.

Kurt

I'm not sure which I find more surprising: the bank's policy or that you are still using cheques .

In my capacity of Membership Secretary of the Writing Equipment Society, I receive hundreds of cheques each year for members' subscriptions. Many of these are so beautifully written that they seem far too good to hand over to any financial institution. Should I tell all our members to only use permanent inks? I can't see that going down well. Has the bank ever complained? Well, I'd like to see them try .

My advice: change banks .

Martin

I completely agree. Seriously ridiculous policy from the bank to try and implement that in a pratical way. It's totally unforceable!

Matt

I think this was once true. However, now, I think your bank will kick you to the curb unless you use checks with a machine readable bank routing number and account number. You will be a customer "not worth the trouble." I suppose they might make an exception depending on the balance, but I doubt mine would matter much.

I was just thinking about this further. I get the impression from your post that the bank clerk saw you write the cheque. Is the bank suggesting that that cheque is then at risk of being tampered with within the clearing system? You could interpret that statement that the bank is openly admitting to an apparent lack of security within their own organisation .

Keep it under the bed, I say .

Martin

Given the state of the banking system, whatever advice they give, do the opposite!

hahahahaha

Truth to tell Martin I will never stop using cheques, I rarely use my debit card except for the odd cash withdrawal and to buy from you

I have been the victim of card fraud 3 times now (twice through internet purchases, both reputable companies and once using card over phone), but never once have I had a problem with a cheque, as to changing banks, we have recently changed and I don't really want the hassle again

Kindest regards
NIGEL

No, but years ago, I was considering a foreign service assignment in the UK (in the end, a family issue prevented it). I had gotten to the point of discussing an account with a banker. It was clear that they were MUCH fussier than US banks. They were horrified that I used Quicken check paper to print checks on my computer printer, then sign them. My bank is perfectly accepting that I have one number sequence in my computer checks and another in my handwritten checks (they seem to largely ignore the number anyway).

I have probably written 10000 checks in my lifetime and I have NEVER seen an attempt to alter any. If I write a gift check for the holidays, I usually use red or green ink (but dark, saturated, scannable) and my bank has never balked. The rest of the time, I use Noodler's black or a non-waterproof blue. Certainly if I were dubious about the recipient (or his employees), I'd use Noodler's black. But my bank has NEVER fussed about an ink choice. They'd probably be my ex-bank. Banks are a dime a dozen right now (I should buy some).

My suggestions:
*Never, ever, let them see you write the check
*Write it in front of them and engage them in sucker bets: "I'll bet you 100 pounds you can't wash it off," profit.
Being a pushy American, I'd surely use the 2nd plan.

I guiltily admit that I don't use a FP regardless of the ink when doing my banking. I use a fine permanent sharpie, and now the pens identified in the office depot link. I think its a throwback from when I worked in the banking fraud area of a bank, about 20+ years ago.

I write everything with fountain pens, now. Everything. I only use a ballpoint if there is no other choice involved. I hate thermal paper, my pens hate thermal paper, but so do bp's, gels, rb's. I use my fountain pens.

I have been writing checks with fountain pens since the beginning of the year, when I converted over fully to their (fp) use. My bank has not said a word. I use Noodler's bulletproof inks on my checks, though I have to admit I've used BSB once or twice. Luxury Blue works very well, however.

I've gotten to that point too. The other day, my desk was cluttered with markers, ballpoints, mechanical pencils, and highlighters but I was frustrated at not being able to find a pen! I received a Bexley Multi-Max for my birthday, so I do try to use that occasionally. I keep it on hand for carbons and pencil work.

As for thermals - Bay State Blue is great fun with them.

Exactly- a lot of FP users have never even touched Noodler's, especially those who aren't online or going to pen shows. If avid FP users haven't heard about it, I think it's rather unfair to expect a bank teller to know about it.

In the end, it isn't just your money, it's the bank's. Even if you're not worried about the possibility of fraud with checks written with butcher paper and crayons, the bank is is simply protecting its own interest.

Feel free to switch banks, but there will always be someone in any bank with the same opinion. FPs might be more common in the UK than in the US; if anything, I commend the teller for even knowing what an FP is and knowing that the ink often can be easily rinsed. Most tellers, especially in the US, will hardly know what a fountain pen is, and certainly not enough to even object to your use of them on checks.

Aaron

bring in a copy of Noodlers security challenge and say here if you can prevail, I will switch to a BP

http://www.noodlersink.com/challenge.html

I don't know where to find it again... but there was an insane bulletproof test that tested many inks, a few ball point pens, and a sharpie, and a few of Noodler's Eternal inks.

He used BulletProof Black to label everything... only BulletProof Black looked like nothing had happened after the strenuous test.

Anyone that can find that thread, please post a link.

But for this... just keep writing the checks. I doubt they'll challenge it. If they do, take your check to the water cooler and rinse it in front of them... that'll be a hoot

of course, since the advent of Check21 in the US, all banks immediately scan the check and convert it to an electronic transaction, so it should not matter what is actually written on the check, as long as it is legible at the instance of processing.

I would recommend telling the clerk to mind her own business.

But then I am what you folks would call a grumpy old git.

The clerk's business is to make sure the cheques are not tampered with and that there is a level of security. She is minding her business when you hand in a cheque if she knows the ink is fountain pen ink and if she understands fountain pen ink to be erasable. She is under the idea that she is educating the customer for their sake. In this case, neither cheque writer or bank teller is wrong. I suspect that many fountain pen users do not know there is bulletproof ink. I'm sure old timers like my dad did not know about bulletproof ink.

Sorry, it's none of her business what sort of ink the customer uses. No matter what she thinks, understands, assumes, or surmises. As long as the check passes muster with the bank's policy and with local laws and banking regulations, it's legit and the clerk has no call to say anything about it. She's a clerk, and making policy is not within her job description.

Tell her to MYOB.

True. You almost certainly signed a document stating that you would only use machine readable checks when you opened the account. So, while any old scrap of paper with "Pay to the Bearer" and your signature might be a legal monetary instrument, it is not one that will be accepted by your bank as a draft on your account.

It's your money, but you are playing by your banks rules.

The original post indicates that the clerk said the client should not be using fountain pen ink. She didn't forbid the client from using it. It was a suggestion not to, just like a suggestion to use ATMs in well-lit area. Sure, if you want to use it when the light bulb is burnt out, no problem either

I agree that one should be able to use whatever one wants, but to be clear, it is definately her business as to what pen you are using for a check. As the teller understands it, the probabilkity

I'd like to say that they (the dummies/dopes/dimwits/goons in the bank behind the counter) prefer BPs for the simple reason that they can thereby hold the check or whatever up at an angle to the light so that they can then see that there has indeed been an impression (in the literal sense of the word) into the paper.
Otherwise, they may claim that a signature with a FP is sometimes hard to distinguish from a scan/graphic addition via your computer.

Mike

My wife is an ex-VP for Sun Trust and she says the response is bogus.
So next time have her get out the UCC and show you where it says you cannot use a Fountain Pen.

I'll give you a head start:

From Article 3 of the Uniform Commercial Code, part 4:

§ 3-401. SIGNATURE.

(a) A person is not liable on an instrument unless (i) the person signed the instrument, or (ii) the person is represented by an agent or representative who signed the instrument and the signature is binding on the represented person under Section 3-402.

( A signature may be made (i) manually or by means of a device or machine, and (ii) by the use of any name, including a trade or assumed name, or by a word, mark, or symbol executed or adopted by a person with present intention to authenticate a writing.

So what would they do if a partially paralyzed person got out a stamp and used it? According to this, it's legal.

-Bruce

I have used a fountain pen every time I have gone to the bank this year, and all of my checks were filled out with fountain pens. I use Noodler's Polar Blue on checks and bank paperwork, such as deposit slips. The tellers never said anything about my pens or gave me funny looks, even when I endorsed checks in front of them using a fountain pen.

SO MUCH FOR SECURITY!!!!

Late yesterday afternoon I received a phone call from a supplier wondering why I had not left them a cheque on Friday when they came to deliver as I normally do, I pointed out I had left them a cheque as usual and they said the driver had said there was no cheque waiting for him!

I phoned the bank the place a stop order on the missing cheque only to find it had been cleared yesterday morning!!! It appears that one of my employees had given the wrong cheque to the wrong driver and that company had managed to BANK the cheque even though it was NOT made payable to them!! This cheque WAS written with a BP!!

I am since told that most banks don't look at cheques under a certain amount, i.e. they dont look at signatures or who it's payable too!!

And they worry about me using a FP

Yes, checks are not always read carefully, especially when deposited through any means other than a human teller at a counter, while a human at a counter can make other mistakes (depositing into the wrong account of the two that are linked to the same ATM card and PIN that are used to verify the customer's identity at the counter, etc.).

The comment about "Check21" in the USA is relevant: a Check21-processed check passes through few hands in a short time before being scanned in and shredded. Not every check gets the Check21 treatment, though, so I'm not about to write checks in washable ink .

Folks, this is a golden opportunity to sit down and put together a one sheet explanation of types of fountain pen ink.

like noodlers: http://www.noodlersink.com/benefits.html

and I think Pendemonium has a sheet explaining bulletproof as well (with images)

this is a way to inform others and spread the word that other than Unibal ink, there are other secured inks to use

As I understood it, when the ball point was becoming widespread banks preferred cheques (this side of the pond) written with fountain pens as they showed more character as they were more responsive to pressure and stroke direction etc and so were more easily identified and less easy to forge.

I have only written with fountain pens on cheques (this side etc.) for as long as I can remember (>20 years?)

I have never tried writing on a fruit.

Greg

I generally use as flexy a pen as I have loaded at the moment for cheques, not for security reasons but simply to brighten the day of the poor wage-slaves at the various processing points on the cheque's passage into obscurity. Since BPs are just as liable to efforts of evil-doers as FPs (exclusive of Noodler's, registrar's inks, and the vintage permanents-which-really-are), and since any amount worth faking a cheque for isn't in my account anyway, I don't sweat the security side of it.

Of course, I am one of the wage slaves who processes cheques sent in for payment, so I get to see a lot of semi-legible cheques written in BP, Sharpie, charred twig, and finger dipped in old motor oil. The occasional FP cheque that passes through my hands, even the ones using Quink Washable Blue, is generally well formed.

edit-- forty years of speaking english, and still trouble with verb/subject agreement. Troubling.

I write out all checks in Noodler's black ink. I've done this for the past 4+ years. Since I write the checks out at home the bank clerks never see what I write them with, so they just have no say in the matter, which is good because the people at my bank are idiots. I once had an argument with the manager of the bank about the meaning of the word "consecutive." She really didn't know what the word meant, as if if you, or someone else, tries to use your ATM card and gets the PIN wrong three consecutive times the card is disabled. They have also had a small, probably insignificant, error in my address for years. Various bank managers have told me about how they've fixed it, the error is still there.

When I run into the impasse with someone I find that demanding to speak to their supervisor helps. Eventually, one can get to someone high enough up the chain of command to be able to reason with them. YMMV.

What he said. After you get to the second or third level supervisor, you can also try threats (finding another
bank). I carried out the threat once, after a series of about three monumental messes, and am much
happier after I got away from (norintmegbank). Around here the smaller ones seem to be better, and
at my current bank, all the tellers call me by name. The only thing they've said about my pens is how
pretty certain ones were.

It's blue ball point ink that is the most subject to tampering! Greg Clark's article on check washing concluded
that any fountain pen ink was fine (as long as it's dark enough). Even the non-bulletproof inks would LOOK
destroyed if attempts were made to wash the ink.

Hi,

Worked in retail banking for the first 26 years of my working life, during a lot of it cheques were pretty much the only option, only hard and fast rules was that cheques had to be made out in ink (no pencil as it rubbed out, don't recall ever seeing one made out in crayon).

Cheques made out in fibre tip pen especially the thick variety were closely scrutinized as it was often used to hide tampering.

From the security point of view BP is probably best except for some of the BPs that could be erased (I think Papermate made one in the 70s). In reality the security printing on most cheques in the UK makes tampering even with non bullet proof ink quite difficult, so I think the main issue now might be the scanning process.

One thing to remember is that low value cheques aren't scrutinized at all, so once in the system they are unlikely to be picked up no matter what they are written with (in my day I have seen cheques for largish amounts made out/signed in pencil that had slipped through the net, but really only an issue if there was a complaint/alteration).

Most attempts to 'wash off'/rub out ink will also erase/smudge the security ink and raise suspicion if a cashier is looking closely (likely they will be keener to sell you something than check closely anyway) or if it is a high value cheque that is scrutinized later in the process but before it is debited to your account.

If you are challenged again ask where in the rules it says BP only, the rules are there for your safety, but I feel the choice is yours, just don't complain if somebody manages to alter your cheque without it being obvious and without triggering the security features (difficult but possible).

Andy

Was the cheque crossed 'Account Payee Only'? If so, make a formal complaint and possibly get compensation.

Hi,

Worth a try, but in their current state he might end up with £1bn of toxic debt, don't use cheques very often now, but even when I worked in banking probably 95% of cheques were pre printed Account payee only and customers had to specifically request other types but were discouraged from doing so.

Andy

Indelibility depends on the specific ink used in a pen, not the type of pen. Most ballpoint ink is easily erased using alcohol, but not the Fisher Space Pen refills (which are different but still considered ballpoint refills). Most rollerball ink can be dissolved by water and various other solvents, but not the ones used in the Uniball Vision (plain Vision, not the Vision Exact or other variants). And gel pen ink is also erasable with solvents, except for the Uniball Signo 207 (the products listed in the link are all 207s) and the Sakura Gelly Roll, for example.



As you imply, it depends on the specific ink you use, just as with other types of pens.



The ink used in Sharpies will eventually dissolve in alcohol over several hours. The ink used in the Signo 207 pens is more permanent, as are Noodler's "bulletproof" fountain pen inks.



It's the Peanut Butter Jar Of Unspeakable Horror:
http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/in...showtopic=29483



Legal Lapis was also unaffected, and it stands to reason that other "contract" inks such as Legal Blue and Aquamarine are equally as indelible since they're apparently based on the same dyes.