I love Legal Lapis....what a great ink! Its my favorite blue-black. I just can't get my head around the price. $18.50 for a normal bottle? Maybe I should order the bigger bottle...but still even then $24 plus shipping. What is Pendemonium thinking?

I hear ya. I wish it were cheaper too.

I was going to suggest that you switch to Noodlers Aquamarine, or one of the other Bulletproof inks until I noticed it was $16.95 for a 3oz. bottle. Not a lot of difference there. You might as well shrug your shoulders, and bite the bullet if you want the ink.
Best regards, Ken

It's a lot less expensive per ounce than Luxury Blue.

Quoted for truth.

That and I really like the color over Luxury Blue. I just wish it didn't gush in my Binder CI VP nib, heh.

The 4-1/2-oz bottle is worth the cost for this ink.

Yea it isn't as bad as others, but its just annoying. It goes against Noodler's mission statement to make good, economical inks.

Tip, if you stop squirting the ink down the drain and back into the bottle, it'll last longer
I'm kind of new to fountain pens... but what is so expensive about 18 dollars for ink that'll last for over a year?

I think you might attract Nathan's ire with statements like that. He will no doubt tell you that he is making the cheapest ink for the dye content that you are likely to find. He runs his business out of a very tax heavy state, makes small quantities, experiments in new markets frequently and uses a larger amount of quality dye per unit volume than any other company. All of these drive up the cost, but you are getting it all in ink itself. He refrains from using fancy packaging or the cartridge sales. So, the ink is as cheap as reasonably attainable without watering down the ink or moving production off-shore.

But for this ink, they are not setting a price, nor is any competitor. Pendemonium has a monopoly on this ink, as it was made specially for them. Also, the 3 oz is about 89 mL, and that comes to about 20cents per mL. Not good, but most definately not bad.

-Nkk

I don't think it's that expensive, but then I've paid for Caran D'Ache. Note that FPN's own bulletproof is $18/bottle, and the Swisher exclusives are $17, and Pendemonium discounts to $16.50.

So I think they're the pricing leader.

Maybe, but it might cost a bit more to make this ink. Even FPN's bulletproof ink costs $18 for a 3-oz bottle. In the end, the retailer will be the one to set the price. FPN's price reflects operational cost, it was made so that the "profit" could be used to fund the forums. Not too long ago, $18 for the bulletproof appeared to be the standard. I only recently (last 6-8 months?) saw some price competition. Pendemonium is a Mom & Pop type store that started - and continues - with a B&M. The price seems expensive, but I think it's not bad for what we're getting.

Looking at my inks, I'm glad I have Legal Lapis and Heart of Darkness in big bottles. I seem to be going through quite a bit of both.

I think 4 people hit the same wavelength and "enter" at the same time.


jdboucher, please don't take our fast posting as a critisizm. Some might see it that way. We just all had timing.

It's also less expensive per ounce than Caran d'Ache, J. Herbin, and even Aurora.



The standard Noodler's inks and a couple of the bulletproof ones are even less expensive per ounce than the big name brands. And the exclusive bulletproof inks are actually less expensive than non-exclusive ones. All in all, I think the pricing is largely set by the actual cost of making each ink.

I'll just say that LL and Noodler's inks are worth every penny. I just wish they were cheaper for my wallet's sake.

Actually, all the standard Noodler's are cheaper than Quink or Pelikan, and the Bulletproofs are only slightly more expensive. Skrip is $7 a bottle for 50 mL, Noodler's are 12.50 for 90 mL, cheaper.

And only the Bulletproofs are really permanent (only carbon inks are close).

Peter

I kinda wonder about ink prices.. Usui makes a good point, ink prices don't really seem that high to me for the amount and ball park consumption rate. But from the perspective of "I want to try a lot and have em all!" it can get quite expensive very quickly, glancing at the 5 bottles I have sitting here I have trouble imagining I will actually use all of each one.. and I already have the urge to buy and try many more. I don't really think its fair to the ink companies to look at their pricing from a collecting standpoint. Thank god for pear tree pen company and their brilliant samples.

I do not feel that Legal Lapis is that expensive. Several people have compared it to other brands' prices and I think those comparisons are to the point. I have always just assumed Legal Lapis costs a little more to make. I also do not mind supporting Pendemonium and I purchase ink there regularly.

And I was just thinking that fountain pen ink, in bottles, is generally one of the better values around. I also feel that Noodler's inks are well worth their cost. /Craig

Yep, Agreed. My complaint with Pendemonium (which really isn't their fault I would assume) is not with the prices of ink, but rather that every time I go to make a purchase at least 3-10 inks I want are "Temporarily Out Of Stock" BAAAAH!!!!! (chanting wildly from the gallery) "Boil that dust speck Boil that dust speck... Beaslenut oil, Beaslenut oil"

One thing that might help availability would be for both Noodler's and Pendemonium to increase their margin.

I'm not sure. If the price were higher wouldn't the volume of sales be lower and therefore overall profit no more or perhaps less? Though Nathan can't seem to keep up with demand as it is, I'm not sure raising the prices would help. I have no idea how he determines how many bottles to produce of each color, but if sales volume is high, it should take less time per bottle to produce a greater quantity of each run. Two thirds or more of the colors listed by Pendemonium seem to be out of stock at any given time, but this could be because Sam doesn't get in her orders promptly--or that Nathan is just spreading himself too thin to keep production adequate on his whole line. Swisher seems to have less trouble keeping a stock of listed items, but my impression may be misleading. And, of course, both have specials not available elsewhere. They are all to be commended for catering to our tiny band!

Nathan has a small operation due to the cost of adding employees in Massachusetts. As such, production is pretty much capped. So, increasing the price would help availability. It would drive down demand to something closer to production. This would result in Noodler's Ink making more money for the same work and having fewer shortages at the various retailers.

Whether he desires to do this, I can't say. However, it is certainly an option.

I'd probably buy a little more ink from Noodlers via Pendemonium if the bulletproof exclusives were at least $3 less expensive. It wouldn't be worth it for them, though. That's why I troll the Marketplace for people dissatisfied with inks like Dostoevsky so I can scoop it up that way.

I have no quarrel with the price of any of the ink I choose to buy. I don't have any Herbin or Caran d'Ache because of their prohibitive prices. Same for the new fancy Pilot inks and those German inks you'd basically have to import.

As a note, if anyone is is jonesing for this ink, I bought a 4.5oz eyedropper of the stuff and don't like it enough to use it fast enough. Went through a few fills of a sample I got, but by the time Pendemonium had it in stock again my love had cooled a bit. If you want to buy a smaller quantity, feel free to PM me. $8/oz shipped in the US, which is at cost (ink, polycarbonate Nalgene bottle, packing and shipping). 0.25 oz increments.

Alternately, I'd be up to trading oz for oz Legal Lapis for other inks of any brands or for 5 or 6 ink samples. Just an idea!

Aaron

Legal Lapis is a very pretty ink and I gladly paid for my bottle. Even sweeter a friend gave me a bottle so now I have an ample supply. I really like dealing with Sam and Frank at Pendemonium, they are good people! They will be in Dallas for the pen show with a huge load of ink at good prices. I also found that if you ask many times they have been able to restock some items but the webpage is just not yet updated.

My complaint is due to my budget. Being in high school and working a part time job doesn't really help this addiction And now I have to pay gas, and insurance for my car. Its just a tough situation.....guess the next paycheck will have to include some ink money though

And the biggest irony is that Noodlers was originally going to be the cheap ink for normal people. I guess like all things the market went in a different way.

Kurt

But that's just it- it still is cheap. Part of the issue is that it's a big bottle, and part because it's a 'premium ink' compared to the rest of Noodler's inks. At $18.50, the 3 oz. bottle is still a few cents cheaper than a bottle of Skrip or Waterman. About the same price as Quink, with Pelikan ink coming out to be a couple pennies cheaper.

It's expensive when compared to regular Noodler's, but not so when compared to many other brands of ink.

Aaron

If our margin over the cost of raw materials is smaller than any other ink company...and those other ink companies won't even offer you an ink made with those particular costly raw materials....because they want a much higher margin - then what does this logic indicate? Noodler's made four bottles of a particular lazuli color - the classic dye from the early 1930s that long ago was abandoned to the Rockefellers for rare wedding invitations. It cost the buyer $62 per 3 oz. bottle - and our margin was $0.22 per bottle (it was sold direct as a custom request to somebody who said it could not be replicated...still working on an electronic variable ink for a fellow on this board who asked for an ink that changes colors when exposed to different polarities and/or static charge levels - another ink we likely won't make much upon until the day a real use is found). Why? The same reason we make Purple Wampum and a few other next to nothing margin inks....bragging rights. We did it when nobody else even made it available to the public to try - and we did it at the narrowest of margins...margins so narrow other manufacturers simply won't consider such inks. That is why many of our inks are never replicated by other manufacturers - they are simply allergic to our margins!

You also should consider the overhead cost of the retailers before drawing conclusions about cost structures. Ink can't make it to the store shelf unless it makes the industry standard margin - otherwise NOBODY will stock it! We can ship it at cost, but it will still be marked up that industry standard margin or NOBODY will stock it at all....that is something that is not within our control. There would not be the current availability and selection to the public with a direct marketing approach (even Dell computer was forced to sell in WalMart). If it could be made for less than the dyes used in China...yet with the better properties - it is beyond doubt that the savings would be passed on to the consumer in full just to p#$$ off my competitors. Whenever that can be done, it is - but when raw materials cost must be paid or wind up completely bust and with no viability to the ink company at all...it would simply mean there would no longer be any ink produced here - those costs must be covered even if the margin is $0!

It should also be pointed out that you pay about $160 a bottle when you buy the most durable disposable roller ball ink on the market. Is that a bargain? That manufacturer makes hundreds of percent in margin...and still manages to give a perception of being a bargain! lol We give a free refillable pen and eat the cost of it - yet it is viewed as costly when the bottle contains 75 times as much? Ah!

Yet Nathan we get it you make super nice inks of really expensive dyes and take a lower margin than the big boys because that is what the market desires. And from your post also a few just for ego. That's great and all.

But what about making a few with low cost dyes and offering them at a lower price as well? sort of going back to the roots of your first inks the ones that were suppost to be the everyman inks? If the rare inks dyes are $62 an oz what about some more mundane dyes that are $20 or $10 an oz surely there are some out there?

Maybe a 'two buck chuck' of black, blue and red? Maybe a line of Occasionally Knoodling Inks and Charles Taylor wine does exist at a much lower price than competitors. If you don't want to sell to stores I bet there is an internet outlet that could be a outlet for the sub brand. Heck lots of vintners make their major label and then some minor labels as well.

As for rollerballs- I don't use them so why should I mind that it's $160 a bottle- I use fountain pen ink and would wish for a cheaper good one. Is that enough of a request to give you bragging rights? to tweak the noses of the big boys- make a deep blue at a price that would cause them to spit coffee across the boardroom table, some dark black that would make them wring their hands.

How about it? Brag on a $5 ink!

Kurt

I would not buy something labelled "Our Second Best".

If you have champagne tastes in ink, you have to pay champagne prices. Same in every other product line: there's generic, brand name and specialty pricing.

Actually your statement is not true, as I started with the wine comparison I will continue. Many houses have their branded & labelled wine while also if there is a surplus will sell wine under a different name. Same company, same wine, different name. That is what I am suggesting.

Kurt

An $18 bottle of ink lasts me MUCH longer than $18 worth of gasoline or wine or printer ink cartridges or tickets to a renaissance festival.

It figures out to only pennies per hour of writing bliss.

Quite a bargain in my book.

Bill

Geez, some folks are REALLY demanding! I'm just glad and frankly surprised that a company like Noodler's even exists this day and age, doing what they're doing, and that we have such a wide selection of inks from which to choose from all of the manufacturers. Enjoy it while it lasts.

As for making a cheaper ink from cheaper materials, Nathan has said that he's done so before, only not under the Noodler's brand name. Such inks probably could not be made pH-neutral, and if one is going to violate one's own principles, it had better be for a good reason (e.g. providing unique inks like the Baystate series). Noodler's standard inks, in addition to Bulletproof Black, are already less expensive than those of the major brands, per quantity, but if you really need an ultra-cheap ink, then buy some Hero ink, which has received praise from some prominent members of the fountain pen community. You could also water down Noodler's standard inks if you're that desperate. Can't afford the premium for Legal Lapis? Just mix some Black into Navajo Turquoise, and you'll at least have a semi-bulletproof ink of almost the same color at a lower price. It's a compromise, but then so is everything.

We are living in a time when those with lots of advertising clout are training us as hard as they can to believe that the only Good is Cheap. Look at how many people are willing to put up with poorly-made junk if they can get vast piles of it for pennies a piece. Noodlers isn't just an atavism in terms of materials, but in terms of refusal to compromise value for illusory "bargain" pricing-- and good on 'im for sticking to it. The anachronists (or is it anarchists?) of the world appreciate it.

I suspect cheap ink would be a financial disaster if it wasn't bulletproof and pH neutral and would be the death knell of all other Noodler's inks if it was.

We don't need cheap ink in popular colours. The market is already saturated by the big manufacturers on that front. Want some cheap blue or black ink that won't give you problems? Go to your local office supply store and pick up a bottle of Quink. Even if Nathan could undercut their prices, unlikely, he'd have a difficult time breaking into even a tiny fraction of this market.

If this new Knoodling ink, on the other hand had bulletproof qualities and was pH neutral and came in a standard assortment of colours, what would be the incentive for the average person to buy any of the other Noodler's inks? If I can get Knoodling Discount Black for $5/bottle why would I pay $12.50 for Noodler's Black? Or pay $18 for Old Manhattan Black? Sure, maybe black ink enthusiasts or collectors would still buy the occasional bottle, but it would definitely hurt the other line. It wouldn't be worth it for B&Ms to stock the any Noodler's, since the online Knoodling outlet would be undercutting them. I don't think Noodler's mission statement includes helping the shuttering of B&Ms and the aiding the decline in FP use. Not to mention it may violate distributor contracts already in place.

Well that's interesting. I guess my pointing out the irony of Noodler's roots was lost on pretty much everybody.


Won't be the first time, probably not the last.


Kurt

We are keeping up with demand. After China banned liquids from air cargo for the olympics - (ink is cheaper to send there than anyplace else on a per mile basis because the trade deficit is so vast most cargo space goes back empty and begging even for a low margin bottle of ink!) and then Russia banned everything from US chicken legs to ink...and India's retail economy sank suddenly and no longer looks viable for many US made products (for distrubution or otherwise it looks pretty dead now - even the world's smallest mini car plant is being shut down there for a multitude of reasons)...I could go on...even the EU retail environment is permitting breathing space now. So - there is more than enough capacity. Anyone who pays their accounts will get delivery of their inks within 9 days right now - and that includes ANY inks still in production. We are, however...not extending much credit - to say the least. Just one major retailer telling us to take a hike on a past due bill is enough to bankrupt it all - and we are simply not able to handle that level of risk on narrow margins. A returned bottle destroys the margin of 36 (and 107 if we have to make up full retail instead of wholesale!) - it's like bleeding to death if any mistake is made. It is not an industry for sound sleeping.

In any case - Russian inks and UK inks are currently available in (ask and they will let you know what they have) Germany, the UK, Australia, and a small group was sent to Swisher pens last week (just ask). If an ink runs low or out of stock in the UK, Taiwan, Korea, Japan, or Singapore...it is not because they have no credit (everybody there has been as good as fort knox) or that production can't keep up right now - it is simply because of the need to save every penny on shipping that mandates the largest shipments possible. They wait until a shipment is large enough to reach the greatest shipping discounts....otherwise the cost of shipping would become not only greater than the cost of the ink...but so prohibitively expensive as to drive it out of consideration in those markets on the other side of the world.

How about it? Brag on a $5 ink!

Kurt
[/quote]


A Chinese style and an Indian style ink both were tried. They are cheap - costing about 23 cents over the cost of glass - store branded, near identical dyes (though with US preservatives of course!).

1st trial: We sold six bottles of the 50 that were tried and the retailer sent the rest back for credit towards western style pH neutral dyes and towards a case of Noodler's black.

2nd trial: The local ink cost less for glass than our glass cost from Cape Cod, and they destroyed the store brand...by destroyed I mean not a single bottle sold but several were dip tested and came back completely discolored due to this mixing (people apparently emptied other inks from their pens into them). They also exchanged the store branded inks for standard Noodler's - which then went on to sell well at the same location. They insisted on bulletproof store branded inks from that point onward because it compared favorably to the local competition.

My other point...if you sell Chinese/Indian style inks here....you do realize that the retailers will need their cut....there will be transport costs in a much more costly place to transport...and you will have other distribution and logistical costs? In the end, it winds up being the difference between a Chinese ink in San Francisco and one in Shanghai - a difference of about what standard Noodler's costs at the wholesale level before shipping...only the Chinese ink in Shanghai starts at less than any other ink in the world - the rock bottom conventional dye based ink of all - the very cheapest with preservatives that have been illegal in the US for more than a generation. UPS, FedEx, USPS, etc...make more per bottle than Noodler's does....are they going to cut their rates on a fragile and dense product so that the retail price will be reduced? Will they cover insurance for a glass product at no charge? Who will reduce the retailer's overhead and mail room? If they don't cut those costs too...all one has done is to replicate a Chinese ink. That does not sell in the market - it has been tried already.

I have calculated it to the greatest efficiency for the value of the product possible. To offer a cheaper product would require using much cheaper materials and basically producing a bottle just like Chinese or Indian inks. It is the economics of ink properties and dye selection...and it is as manifest in China as it is in New England (particularly when the owner can pay himself below minimum wage and not get in trouble for that! lol).

I for one am very glad Nathan is around to fuel our madding need for not just blue, but many shades of blue, and art work that jumps off my desk because it looks so cool. I was born and raised in Mass, I know what Nathan has to deal with out there!

Edit: Although, Geesh!! I wish Pendemonium would buy SOMETHING so they have ink! They are out of almost everything right now.

Thank you Nathan. You make great inks. Please don't compromise the quality for a cheaper ink. Ounce per ounce, Noodler's does give the most bang for the buck in performance and quality I have found. The only inks I think rival them is Pilot/Namiki Standard ink. And they only have Black and Blue in bottles (maybe red) and they aren't bulletproof. I don't have many bottles of ink, but 90% of them are Noodlers.



I'm also born and raised in Mass. Lived here my whole life. I just counted at Pendemonium's site. 77 out of their 102 Noodler's inks are out of stock (+/- a few I might have missed but you get the point).

That's a phenomenal number of options and it doesn't include the exclusives from other retailers. How does he do it?

Be patient. Email them and ask for them to hold whatever else you're interested in, and as the out of stock items arrive, add them to your held items until everything is there. I've done that at least a few times with them with zero problems - they have great service.

I do understand that Noodlers has moved on to produce a range of higher end inks and actually I would have expected that if a low end was possible you'd have done it by now. It's nice to hear the reasons/ history behind it.

Keep up the good work (although could you do a little more in the green range )

Kurt

I love Legal Lapis, and I gladly paid $48 (plus shipping) for two of the 4.5 ouncers (gave the eyedroppers as gifts, lovely idea, though).

I'm a college student, and If it is affordable to me, none of you should be complaining.

If you want some less saturated inks, just water down some Noodlers. You could probably even get away with a 2:1 ratio of ink:water (it'd flow like crazy, though).

If you want cheap, unsaturated inks, stick with Pelikan, Skrip, or Quink.

The hard part about inks and FPs is we (I) tend to collect lots of them. So when we buy lots of bottles of ink it gets expensive. Two 4.5oz bottles of LL should last at least a couple years, but my adult ADD can't tolerate the same ink for more than one fill in a row. Hence the "need" for more ink.

The amount of ink I currently have, could probably last me a couple of years yet I want more.

That's what the ink exchange is for, silly!

--HedgeMage

A $5 Noodlers? I think Nathan made it pretty clear that he can't make a decent ink for that price.

You can't get a $5 bottle of Skrip, Quink or Watermans anymore. The going rate for these inks in my local stationer (or Pendemonium) is $8-$8.75. That's for a 50ML (1.59 ounce) bottle.

The regular varieties of Noodlers are $12.50 (or 2 for $11) at Pendemonium for 3 ounces of ink.

You have to buy two bottles of the "Big 3" ink at $16 to equal the volume of one bottle of Noodlers at $12.50. So even at $18.50 for the Legal Lapis, it's still a fair deal.

Only when I factor in postage does Noodlers get pricier (because I can't get Noodlers in Vermont). That's why when I get some from mail retailers, I usually bundle it with other orders.

And comparing the $18 cost of the "Boston Round" bottles to the "Big 3," it's an even better deal.

Nathan's inks are still among the best out there. His innovative spirit and his determination is admirable. He definately has my support.

Swisher has a lot of the regular inks for under $10.00 for 3oz bottles--under $9.00 if you buy six or more. Also, Todd Nussbaum at I sell pens has the regular series at $10.00. The prices can't be beat on a per ounce basis.

A couple of years ago I had a lifetime supply of ink. And then I bought a bunch more, mostly various Noodler's inks.

I'm sure that the undertaker will be trying to scour Noodler's off my cold, d... Well, you get the picture.

If I were to just buy a single Noodler's Black I'd figure that that wasn't much of a price for what I was getting. And you can always mix other inks with Noodler's, although a lot of the time the other inks are more expensive. Mixing the less expensive Noodler's inks with the most pricey ones is pretty economical, I find. And of course if you're really hard up you can mix some plain water, distilled at $1.50 a gallon or tap for basically free in a lot of places where the water isn't bad, and you've got a good enough ink that's really cheap.


Indeed, I priced out the Noodler's black at 11¢/mL some time back, it may be slightly higher now but so's everything else. And it's a better value than a great many other things, including quite a number of the fountain pens I've bought!

I hadn't thought of the time spent with a mL of ink before. But, yes, that's another calculation that shows that we're getting great value from this stuff. Oh, jeez, am I going to buy more now? Not only is money tight but I don't have any more room for more ink! Of course I may not really need as much underwear as I currently have, and underwear doesn't actually need to be in a drawer, hmmmm.