I'll be getting a number of ink samples soon, and embarking upon a quest to find The Perfect Black Ink, and shortly thereafter The Perfect Blue-Black Ink. As I prepare for this, it occurs to me that what appears perfect on the page may not be perfect in the pen. I know that iron gall inks can do Extremely Unpleasant Things to fountain pens if left to their own devices. Are there any other inks which should have big red labels reading, "WARNING: LARK'S VOMIT"? (Blame Monty Python for that one, not me. )

I think that's a slippery slope. There is hardly an ink anywhere that someone has not claimed has caused Extremely Unpleasant things to happen to their pen.

Why do you think such a warning label is needed? No warning label will protect clueless users from their own stupidity, laziness, carelessness, or inability to exercise simple, basic maintenance. As witness the people who still smoke in spite of decades of warning lables.

Other than the obvious ones that you talked about (iron gall, india ink), I would only "suggest" that a warning label would be good on the baystate inks from noodlers, ONLY for the staining capabilities. Other than that I have no problem with those inks and use them all the time.

Noodler's Baystate Blue

I was being somewhat facetious. I thought the Monty Python bit would be a clue that I'm not actually starting a campaign to force ink manufacturers to place warning labels on their products.

What I'm interested in is a general list of inks that can damage pens, like iron gall and India inks (I didn't consider the latter because it was never intended for fountain pens). Noodler's Baystate Blue is a good example, because it can permanently stain a pen. Meanwhile, the Noodler's website claims that some European inks will corrode metal. I'd like to know, if possible, which inks will do which nasty thing.

Pardon my obtuseness. Monty Python references are largely lost on me.

Yeah, me too Bill..... while watching the shows all my friends would be rolling on the floor while I'm sitting back scratching my head wondering what it's all about... ???? LOL

-Gawain

Was that one from the sketch with the crunchy frog? It has been a while since I watched Monty Python.

Pelikan Red

I keep Baystate Blue in one pen and I'm always careful, when I refill, to: 1) refill in the kitchen, 2) put the bottle on a paper plate or something else disposable, 3) put the plate on a paper towel, 4) wear old clothes, 5) put the bottle away safely lest my dogs go countersurfing and I end up with a bright blue dog. When I first got the bottle, it was full right to the top, and I managed to get some on my hands that took about a week and a half to fade from everywhere but around my nails, which didn't go away for another week after that. Even with all those precautions, I have a nice little stain on my Waterman Carene that hasn't budged with Amodex, straight bleach, or OxiClean. I think the color is amazing, but this ink has earned the nickname "The Devil's Own" as far as I'm concerned, just for the staining possibilities.

I have had really bad experiences with Campo Marzio Roma inks - tip the bottles and see if they have sludge before buying any.

I have had staining issues with PR Tanzenite. As a general rule, reds, purples and browns tend to stain more than blues, so one should be careful with them in stain-prone pens (eg. old demonstrators, very clean translucent celluloid, white and yellow celluloid, etc.)

Also I think Richard B. has the best comment on Noodlers Bulletproof inks :



And Bill once had a little "Bill The Editor's Rules of Inks" that is worth mentioning, if he still has that. . .

John

It's here: http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/in...showtopic=28241

IIRC, Herbin's Perle Noire is one of the samples you ordered. One of the reasons that I prefer J. Herbin to other inks when the comparison is close (e.g., to keep/use MB's BRG or JH's Vert Empire) is that there's nothing about them that seems to be dangerous or unpredictable. They're based on natural dyes, have no precipitate, and they're nontoxic. Not that I'd want to use one in a cocktail, but it's nice to know that I could.... (If only they'd improve the bottle design.)

In today's litigious society, I wouldn't call a frisson of horror at the thought of slapping warning labels on our ink bottles "obtuse."

The Monty Python thing, though...

The word facetious is interesting. It includes all the vowels and they are in order!!

The label text has been greatly expanded with additional information as of two weeks ago due to people repeatedly mixing these inks with acid inks and inks of very divergent dye groups despite numerous statements about this issue as well as web site postings (each box has the web site address printed on it, but obviously that was not enough...so this has been addressed and will continue to be addressed as needed until as many people are pleased with the results as it is possible to manage! ;-).

Good to know! Glad to see that actions are being taken to help customers out before they cause issue. We'll see if it works!

-penguin

In advance of it even reaching test market status: "Black Mamba" is shown here. There will be a very small test run at Swisher Pens, Inc. soon (about 5 bottles or so).

This is not a conventional ink....in fact the last time ink like this was available to the public for refillable marker pens pre-dates my own birth! It is alcohol based and should not be used in fountain pens (it also has a warning to keep from any source of ignition, high heat, spark, flame, etc...as is standard for alcohol containing products). It also should not be used in the highlighter pens included with Year of the Golden Pig - as those are specifically made for water based ink applications ONLY.

This ink is specifically made to refill the generic opaque plastic marking pens found at office supply stores, hardware stores, etc...that write on smooth surfaces such as glass and plastic tape. The label on the bottle is large enough to include a text document that is a side leaf. It has been tested to fill approximately 65 of the largest barrel utility markers and approximately 186 of the smallest size utility markers from each bottle.

I was fed up with tossing out perfectly good marking pens simply because they had gone dry - and found that re-saturating the ink sponge was not only easy to do (they are friction fit and easily disassembled), but enabled the marker to survive many more fillings (often more than 30 before it wore out). Why not make this available to those who like the idea of either saving $ or saving landfill space...or both?? People using brush pens and steel dip pens (artists, cartoonists) may also have use for it if needed for plastic sheet applications. If the public likes it...there will be many more colors. :-) If not, it will quietly go away. ;-(

......but it is worth the try IMO. ;-)

One product after another. When the heck do you sleep? Wow ... let me know which vitamins you take. I'm going to order some.

Are you being facetious?

......but it is worth the try IMO. ;-)[/quote]
One product after another. When the heck do you sleep? Wow ... let me know which vitamins you take. I'm going to order some.
[/quote]


LOL Sure! Mackerel and sardines - very high in omega-3's and so low in the ocean's food chain as to barely register with any mercury - if any (unlike tuna and swordfish!). Zinc (or good oysters)...and obsession helps too (and the phone ringing from other time zones). That help?

Can't do oysters (shellfish allergy), but thanks for the tip on the other stuff.

I don't know what your market research showed, but I go through a LOT of eraseable whiteboard markers. Not so much from use as from the things just dry out in no time, even stored point down and tightly capped. I'm not the only person with this problem, either (my office is basically not air-conditioned, so in summer it's pretty toasty out here), schools and businesses have it too. If you look into doing more colors than black, this might also be worth the try.

Dear Bill,

Already have that made...did not know if people would bother after a brief trial run last year. I'll try again in a few weeks with something more obvious that will hopefully get their attention. I think we can even manage a free refillable pen with that one as it does not need alcohol.

Zinc supplements or spinach avoid the oysters... ;-)

Best -

jbn wrote:

"IIRC, Herbin's Perle Noire is one of the samples you ordered. One of the reasons that I prefer J. Herbin to other inks when the comparison is close (e.g., to keep/use MB's BRG or JH's Vert Empire) is that there's nothing about them that seems to be dangerous or unpredictable. They're based on natural dyes, have no precipitate, and they're nontoxic. Not that I'd want to use one in a cocktail, but it's nice to know that I could.... (If only they'd improve the bottle design.)"

Ditto. Double ditto the bottle comment.

Nathan, thanks for the warning in advance about the marker refill ink. So now the general comment might be that one can use any ink in a FP designated as safe for FP's and excluding India ink, iron gall, and marker refill ink?

Must have been during my hiatus from FPN (Oct - Jul). I think the refillable pen would be a winner, especially for teachers. Lack of alcohol would also be a plus for schools -- no hazmat problems, no "marker sniffing" parties.

I do get plenty of spinach along with other veggies. No problem avoiding shellfish. All you have to do is have the experience of an allergic reaction to them once. Having your tongue, lips, and throat swell up in a matter of seconds will get your attention. Doc said, you've had your warning, the next time you'll die. I choose to believe him.

Bill,
I know little about pens, so only hesitantly I'll say I think that's a bit unfair. You don't expect ink to damage a pen any more than you expect the oil in your engine to cause damage - yes, I accept you have to change the oil regularly. Pens are designed to run on ink, whereas the human body could be claimed not to be optimized for cigarettes. If you've used a certain readily available ink for many years and suffered no apparent damage you're not likely to realize that Brand X's cartridges are OK but their identically named bottled ink is not.

That's my layman's perspective. But can I ask you for your opinion on specific questions: is it OK to switch between commonly known inks for different makes of pen: specifically, is it fine to use Pelikan 4001 in a Parker, Waterman, or Sheaffer; Waterman in a Parker, Pelikan, or Sheaffer; modern Quink in a Pelikan, Sheaffer, or a Waterman; Skrip in a Pelikan, Waterman,or Parker? I think that's exhausted the combinations between those four brands! And one more, if a pen is known to suffer corrosion problems at the gold section end (Le Man/Patrician/ Rhapsody) is any of those or other inks going to be a best bet for delaying or preventing the process?

Thanks,
Thomas

Ah, but what about Y? Remember, all English words have vowels and there's 'rhythm'! Just to be really awkward.

Thomas

My point in the post to which you object is that there is hardly an ink in the world that someone, somewhere, sometime, has not claimed caused damage to his/her pen. The problem with warning labels is that once you put one on your product, all the plaintiffs show up wanting to take your money, your company, and your good name because they claim your warning did not address their specific situation.

The only warning label that would make sense to me is the "common sense" warning: "Caution: This bottle contains ink, a chemical solution that stains things, including human skin and anything else that it contacts. It evaporates and makes clogs in pens, and it may react with pen materials in ways the manufacturer cannot predict. It will make you sick if you drink it, and it is harmful if you get it in your eyes or any other bodily orifice. All use is at your risk."

My observations and advice about pens and inks: http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/in...showtopic=28241

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

But not if, like me, you tend to high levels of uric acid in your blood...this increases the likelihood of one's suffering from gout and/or kidney stones.
Many oily fish contain high levels of purines which should be avoided as much as possible by high UA sufferers.

You can, I am assured, still get the beneficial effects of Omega-3 by taking good-quality fish oils which, apparently don't contain significant levels of purines, so do more good than harm!

Ha! I've already got gout (no stones, though ... yet). I take medication for it and eat whatever I want.

[That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
[/quote]

Fair enough! I definitely agree that people are all very ready to look for someone to blame for almost everything - especially when it's their own fault!

T

Facetiously.

There is a possibly apocryphal story about a chain-saw manufacturer that was saved paying out on a damage claim because they had the foresight to include in the owner's manual, "Do not stop chain with hands." Which, of course, the claimant had done.

Even with those little fold-out labels, there's never enough room on an ink bottle for all the warning that might be needed, so it's best not to put any for fear that exclusion of one becomes the hook to hang the giant lawsuit on ("Well, sure, it says, 'Do not drink' but it doesn't say 'Not for intravenous application'; give me money!").

...facetiously he says

... he asked facetiously ...

[edit] ARRGH! LARGE CAPS! You beat me to it. [/edit] I'm going back to the gila monster thread.

Ask Monty!