I'm not trying to start a flame war though there may be some here that disagree with me.

I was looking at a Waterman Leman 200 on Fleabay that appeared to have a loss of plating issue
around the nib collar area. You couldn't really tell for sure from the pics, it MIGHT have just been
some nasty ink gunkage but before I bid very much for it, I did some more checking. [1]

I called Waterman and inquired on their warranty procedures. The GOOD news is the Lemans pens
made prior to '94 (all of them?) have a lifetime warranty. The BAD news is that YOU MUST HAVE AND
SEND IN TO THEM copies of the original receipt and warranty booklet otherwise, you have NO WARRANTY
AT ALL. (Their pens made from '94 on have a 3 year warranty).

So, I inquired about the charges for out of warranty work. It's a basic charge of $65 for most issues.
For anything (on the Lemans pens) related to the nib area it's $164!! as the lady told me, "that being
what we charge for a new nib section". Now. That's just STUPID when Lewertowski has the durn nib
sections NOS for $111.

I am very unhappy with these pen companies who though the may stand behind the ORIGINAL
purchaser for awhile, DEFINATELY DO NOT stand behind their PRODUCT in general with regards to
subsequent purchasers. This is a decision completely devoid of any business acumen. Why can't
they realize that how THEY and their (used to me) PRODUCT performs, BOTH weigh heavily on whether
or not I MAY make an original purchase from them in the future?

Operations like Waterman and Parker look even sadder when you hold them up to companies like
Cross who appear to stand FULLY BEHIND THEIR PRODUCTS NO MATTER WHO IS USING THEM. If
Cross can't repair your pen, they'll replace it with the same or newer model whether or not you are
the original purchaser or have the original paperwork for the pen.

So many other companies should use that as a model if you ask me.

[1] I still wonder what in the world someone could have done to take away a section of plating on
the nib collar probably 1/4" long...

Bruce in Ocala, FL

Umm, Bruce, do you really consider yourself the original owner? I don't think 20 year old Fleabay refuse counts as "new" in the eyes of the manufacturers.

To you, does "Lifetime" mean one, or an indeterminate number of consecutive lifetimes?

Well, burn my cobbler, I do believe your dander is up.

Yeah, Bruce, a lot of us Waterman folks found out about the policy change about a year or two ago, and I have been ranting ever since. You missed the worst news: The repair center is now located in France (as in, Europe), so you are basically paying air fare for the repairs.

As for that pen you saw on the Bay, I do think it was gunkage a la ink, but the photos were kind of unclear, weren't they?


diane

One of my Le Mans (the smaller one) has the plating, uh, disintegration issue. It's definitely missing plating and not ink gunk.

I've never minded cos I love how the nib writes.

I don't know how I would prove that I'm the original owner (I bought both pens years before '94). I probably have the booklets, and I probably wrote what pens they came with, but I didn't keep the receipts, and I don't have financial records older than seven years.

The original purchaser is paying for the warranty with their purchase price.

If you want the warranty then you need to pay the fuller original price.

You can't expect to buy cheap and have it repaired for free.

Uh, I think we are starting to sound like we are flaming the OP.

I'd agree with that sentiment. The onus is on the original purchaser.

Lifetime warranty is the purchasers lifetime, not the material lifetime of the pen. Very few companies outside of Sears Craftsman Tools offer a material lifetime warranty for the object.

IMHO OcalaFlGuy had/has an unreasonable expectation on the warranty for this product.

If the sack goes bad on my White Dot 1936 Balance (which was before I was even born), should I expect Sheaffer to restore it for free?

Well, I guess if my expectations are unreasonable then the way A.T Cross does business is unreasonable
too.

They stand behind their product whether the original owner owns it or not.

I don't see anyone addressing the fact that Waterman wants $50 more for a nib section than one of their
own dealers sells one for. THAT certainly doesn't sound very "customer friendly" to me.

Bruce in Ocala, FL

Using your specific example, I'd say the answer is an obvious no, they shouldn't have to. A rubber sack going bad
after 71 years I certainly would say falls under "normal wear and tear".

I DON'T consider gold plating flaking completely off a "non-traffic" area of a companies flagship pen to be "normal
wear and tear". Brassing, yes, flaking off of a non-wear area, no.

Bruce in Ocala, FL

NOS from the secondary market is not the same as a company replacing the part themselves.

First off, you're paying for the OEM to do it for you versus just ordering the part and doing it yourself.

Then you have to consider the overhead for the job. I can buy NOS for pennies on the dollar and store them in my closet until someone buys one. A company may have to fabricate a new one or at the very least has to keep old inventory around, where it takes up valuable space and maintenance.

Also, you have to consider that you have a higher expectation from a manufacturer repair than you do from an aftermarket hobbyist. You'd want perfection. The OEM has to shoulder the addition burden if your pen cracks or is damaged due to age related stress while they attempt to fix your cosmetic problem.

Buying NOS is a totally different animal than having the OEM perform expensive repairs on older product. You can't really compare the two with any meaningfulness.

Maybe your damage is the result of abuse. No way to tell. You're not the original owner, you don't know who was and you can't report how the damage happened. Tough break.

Some pens require pricey restoration work. That's why they don't command top price.

I do think both Parker and Waterman factory service has become a pricier, b less convenient and c less friendly than, say, Lamy or Pelikan/Chartpak.

So guess which modern pens I'm likely to buy more of? You got it.

Fortunately, yes, if anything went wrong with my Sonnets or Laureats, I would look for parts with Lewertowski or go back to eBay and try to find a part there.

Sadly, warranties of a "lifetime" nature ony apply to the original purchaser assuming that person is organised enough to keep their purchase records. I am not.

However, a plated section does not appeal to me and I would far sooner buy vintage and fix the thing myself or pay to get it fixed.

Your secondhand car etc has no lifetime warranty, so why should your pen have it?

Maybe I am wrong here, but I Bruce brought up a valid point when he told us Waterman will charge more for replacement than their own dealers. There's the (BBQ) rub!

Well maybe in the next iteration of the dealer contract Waterman can enforce standard pricing across the board. That way dealers won't undercut repair work to less than what the parent company can do it for. Or simply refuse to honour warranty work done outside of their factories.

Let me raise an issue related to warranties generally and not specific to Waterman pens or even fountain pens. For that, I must ask forgiveness in advance. But if you will allow me just a few lines of text, I'll try to make my point relevant to the issue at hand.

I bought a car from a friend of mine. Actually, his mother who was entering an assisted living home and could no longer drive. It was old and had a few dents but was overall a really good car and great for my needs which was just getting around town (spouse expropriated the nice car so I get the car the dogs ride in).

Anyway, the battery was old so they put in a new battery just before I bought the car.

Battery fails in a remarkably short period of time: about half of its projected lifespan ("six year" battery lives a little longer than three years). I take battery back to place where it was purchased and I'm told that because I'm not the original owner and cannot produce the original receipt, they will not honor the warranty. They will sell me a new battery which is identical and it's even on sale (evidently the "sale" is a ruse because the "sale" price is the actual every day price). I decline.

I take battery to another place and get a new one there. In the back there is a pallet load of batteries which have been traded in. A little less than half are (drum roll, please) batteries like the one I'm getting rid of.

Seems that the "warranty" is more of a scam than a warranty. Seller seems to almost always find some excuse to decline the warranty but instead sell a new battery -- on sale, of course.

My point is that companies which respect the customer respect the warranty. Others sell entire nib sections (at inflated prices, of course) for the same price as "service."

Can't say I'm too impressed with those companies. It tends to discourage me from buying batteries or pens when they treat customers like that.

I do think both Parker and Waterman factory service has become a pricier, b less convenient and c less friendly than, say, Lamy or Pelikan/Chartpak.

So guess which modern pens I'm likely to buy more of? You got it.

Fortunately, yes, if anything went wrong with my Sonnets or Laureats, I would look for parts with Lewertowski or go back to eBay and try to find a part there.

J. English Smith


Both Satrap and J. English get where I am coming from here.

Sadly, the warranty issue and pricing is only part of the issue. Now, I can't speak for Waterman repairs but I HAVE
combed the Parker board re; Sonnet repairs and as I understand it, Parker and Waterman have the same mother
company now.

There are rampant reports of Sonnets having to go back multiple times until the problem was finally rectified or
with the owner just giving up and sticking what should be a nice useable pen away in a drawer somewhere when it came
back from repair unrepaired. Parker also has similar basic service pricing as Waterman. I contacted a well known
nibmeister who advised me they could fix my Sonnet feed problem for around $20-25, LESS THAN HALF what the
company that originally sold the pen and should be STANDING BEHIND THEIR PRODUCT AND CUSTOMERS want for
a basic service charge. I sure didn't have any original purchaser status with this nibmeister now, did I?

You also have Waterman going from a lifetime warranty to a much more limited timeframe. I don't see how anyone
can construe THAT as being MORE customer proactive. It DOES however, fall right in line with the jist of my opinion,
that being what USED to be the QUALITY pen companies in the US not only caring less about the quality of their product
but less about satisfing their customers.

Someone mentioned Craftsman tools being one of the few companies that have a lifetime, no matter who owns it
warranty. They aren't the only ones but yes, there aren't many. (Snap-On tools also has that policy) Yes, these
companies DO charge a premium for their products but there are ALOT of people who USE those tools for a living
that WILL pay that extra premium specifically for that warranty. I think the same type of "premium" is certainly
worked into the original pricing structure for at least the upper level Waterman and Parker pens.

Getting back to A.T. Cross. I've read EVERY SINGLE POST in the 8 pages of their archives. Alot of people say
they have drab designs and judging the book by it's cover, avoid Crossi. That's their loss as one thing that
crops up time after time on the Cross board is that EVERY PEN CROSS MAKES, from the lowerst priced one to
their "flapships" are WONDERFUL writers. What's the NEXT MOST brought up point, yep, you got it, "If anything
goes wrong with your Cross, just send it back and they'll fix it or replace it". What you DON'T see there is any
number of people complaining about poor writing pens, or mishandled warranty issues NO MATTER HOW MUCH
THEY PAID FOR ONE.

So perhaps that company policy AND my expectations aren't SO out of line after all.

Yep, I'm a newbie here. In the past 3 months, I've bought 12 pens. About 1/2 from ebay and about 1/2 from
restorers here. I just bought my first new in the box pen from a (at least a quasi) company dealer. I'm VERY impressed with my 20 year old Cross Century I, I'm also impressed with Cross caring enough about quality to make their cheaper pens write as well as their nicest ones, AND that they understand that THEIR CUSTOMER IS THEIR CUSTOMER whether he bought their products new or used, HE'S STILL USING THEIR PRODUCT none the less.

To me, the Cross Townsend and Parker Sonnet are similar products. But I can't NOT consider Parker's warranty
and repair pricing policies (almost the exact same as Waterman) along with the fact that It Seems Anyway that just
about as many people have problems with their Sonnets as don't. There ARE some KNOWN issues with that pen
(at least according to Richard Binder and another nibmeister I corresponded with) but has Parker stepped up and once and
for all addressed those problems for ALL the owners of those pens, no they haven't. THAT IS NOT the sign to me of
a quality orientated company.

NOT A SINGLE ONE of the original pen companies ever saw a penny realized from my 12 vintage purchases. But there IS
at least ONE company that knows that their stance on quality both in their products and how they treat their customers
DOES matter to some people when it comes at some point to them making an original, new purchase.

So, just like J. English, I voted with my wallet.

I have not the slightest doubt that I'll thoroughly enjoy using my new 14kt Cross Century Classic II and that A.T.Cross
will stand firmly behind their PRODUCT hereafter, NO MATTER WHO OWNS IT.


Bruce in Ocala, FL

I'm having a very difficult time following the 'logic' of a company (specifically pen manufacturers) having to honor a warranty on a product that has not been submitted for repair by the original purchaser.

If I purchased a Waterman Le Man 100 25-years ago that has a lifetime warranty (and do not forget that the 'lifetime' warranty small print always states 'applicable to original owner only'), and turn it in for repair 'due to an equipment malfunction', I expect to have the pen repaired. I may also, according to the warranty wording and its right to change without notice, expect to pay shipping charges. But still, I get the pen repaired because I am the original owner and I paid a huge premium for the pen and its limited warranty.

Now I go onto eBay or purchase a pen here. Remember, even if the pen is mint or in near mint condition or NOS, it is still a resale. I paid a lot less for this used pen than I would have a new pen. I get the pen and something is not right - plating is worn off. I have absolutely no right under the original warranty to turn that pen in for repair. None. I know it. The company knows it. The world knows it.

Now I can cheat. Maybe the seller gave me the original receipt and papers, which I've been given on occasion. Then I can submit the original paperwork - only if I cheat further by obscuring the name on the receipt - and get it repaired. That doesn't feel right to me.

Thinking about Cross Pens. Yes, they do have a good warranty. Yes, I've sent my 18k gold filled pen and pencil set back for repairs more than 20-years after I've purchased the set and for valid reason. But you know what I noticed? The Cross customer support person (or the Sears-Craftsman) did not ask me if I was the original purchaser. It makes me wonder. Did they you? And if they had - don't forget that fine print about original purchaser warranty non-transferable - what would you have said? "Oh, no. I just bought this cheap on eBay."???

It makes me wonder why folks feel so entitled to things they didn't earn or pay for. These companies have had a history of primary "original purchaser only" folks returning goods that have malfunctioned. We are now in an internet age in which goods are sold and resold (and broken in the middle of all that) and people are taking advantage of pre-internet concern warranties.

Why has Waterman-Parker changed its warranty along with a multitude of other companies? Could it possibly be because they, and companies like them, are losing money on warranties written with a completely different market model in mind? Folks purchasing 'vintage' pens of suspect quality ("was the image clear?", she asked) for very little taking advantage of expensive repairs under warranties in which they have no investment have become a major cash drain on companies. No wonder prices go up and warranty terms change.

And the cost of repair. My goodness, have you ever had a TV or a computer repaired? Talk about cost. Repairs are expensive. The product has to be disassembled, fixed, and reassembled. That takes special skills, extra time, is out of mechanized product flow, requires warehoused parts that have been stored for years at great expense, extra factory space, and employee overhead. Get it together. Of course it costs more. It has to.

So, my position is that I agree with the position the manufactures have taken. I've owned my own company. I was in it to make a fair and decent living - not to cheat on repairs. So are they. And if you think about it, so would you.

Peace,

Phroneo

FWIW,

Waterman changed their warranty period in '94, while they MAY have seen SOME impact from internet sales then, I
doubt it was near the impact it currently is.

With Cross, there's no need to "cheat" when sending a pen in for warranty work, or for their customer service rep to
bother with who owns the pen. The Fine Print of the Cross warranty SPECIFICALLY STATES it doesn't matter if you are
the original owner or not.

Using your arguements you are welcomed to assume that Cross is clueless relative to the other manufacturers in the
way they honor warranties (which must be the case, as you argue the other companies methods ARE perfectly
acceptable).

I will choose to think otherwise.

Bruce in Ocala, FL

Choose it to be that way then, Bruce.

For me, personally, it's a matter of ethics first and understanding business costs and economics second. If I didn't purchase a pen new from a manufacturer, and if I picked up a pen second hand and cheap, for me, personally, it is unethical to put the cost of repair back to the manufacturer.

For me, personally, I would feel as if I stole money from that company's cash register. For me, personally, there is no difference.

Now if I purchased the full and transferable warranty rights and understood it as such, that would be a different story. But for me, personally, buying a 25 -30 year old second hand pen doesn't, and feeling entitled to having the company repair it under warranty rights - even though those rights were changed 14 years ago, - isn't ethical for me, personally.

That's just me. That's the way I am. Maybe I'm all wrong, but it sure feels right to me.

Peace,

Phroneo

Problems with the nib-end gold ring seem quite common reading from Waterman Le Man 100 & 200 posts here. What is it in the ink that does it (assuming it must be to do with the ink) and is there a preventive maintenance strategy worth following? This from someone who's just bought an old/as new Rhapsody and is just about to get a Patrician. Perhaps I should forget the Patrician? (don't think so though).

Hope this doesn't seem too far off the immediate topic...

Thomas

First, for the record, I never alluded to the possibility that I would misrepresent myself as an original buyer
to get warranty work done.

I will totally agree with you on the ethics part, and that applies to the manufacturer too. There are restorers on
this board that will fully restore (and make minor repairs) to a pen for HALF what the companies want to charge
"their valued customers" for a basic service call. YOU may see Waterman's and Parkers repair pricing as ethical,
I SEE it as a blatant attempt to dissuade anyone other than an in warranty customer from obtaining needed service.
I see THAT as NOT standing behind their products NOR their customers (be those customers 1st hand or 2nd).
And, since 2nd hand customers MAY VERY WELL turn into new original retail purchasers for the companies (or not
depending on how they percieve the companies products and services) I don't see that a second hand owner should be treated any less FAIRLY than an original. (And by fairly, I mean at least getting a fair price for any needed out of
warranty repair work. Sorry but I don't buy ONE SCINTILLA of reasoning that says it's fair for Waterman to charge
$165 for a nib section when an authorized dealer for them sells the same nib for $111, ESPECIALLY when WATERMAN
knows there is both a limited demand AND the availibility of those parts.)

You also make it sound like so many of these upper level pens (ie; Man 100/200's) are going on Ebay for pennies on the dollar. Generally, I don't see this happening. It appears that most of them go for near or MORE than they originally retailed for to begin with.

Obviously you and I see this differently. That's ok. If we were all the same, the world would be a pretty boring
place.

Bruce in Ocala, FL

Actually, this pricing is no different than any company that offers a product. How many times have we seen a company introduce a pen, car, iron, hammer, etc and say the MSRP is x. Then, they proceed to sell it for x if you buy directly from them, even though you can buy it for x-y at a dealer location. It is all about economics. They are a for profit company and they want to make as much as they can. If the same item can be purchased at a dealer for less, that just means the dealer is willing to make a smaller profit. Nothing unfair about that at all. It is all part of capitalism. If you don't want to pay the manufacturer's price, get it from a different, less expensive source.

Inkdesigner

Absolutely. The dealer can discount it and make it a loss leader to get the custom if they so desire. Then try to sell you a couple bottles of ink while are you there or maybe a matching pencil. The factory has no such interests and needs to make profit on the exchange.

As I pointed out above, if you are buying NOS that is not the same as having warranty work done or buying new parts from the OEM.

I agree with the posters who cite this as a case of wanting to capitalize on a warranty that second hand sellers have no rights to. Want the warranty and all the goodies? Buy new. You see pens all the time, especially MB, that state the registration card is stamped but was never filled in by the purchaser, so you can buy the warranty. These command a premium for that reason.

The factory also has to pay for Health Insurance, retirement plans, vacation pay, buildings, lights, personal property taxes, business taxes, overhead, inventory, research and development, raw materials, training, etc., etc., etc.

I know that my Charge Rate is over three time my pay rate.

So someone working for themselves can easily charge less than half what a company has to charge for the same work.

I agree with Chemyst, "Want the warranty and all the goodies? Buy new."

Not to hijack the thread, but just as a note to DRP. That pallet of batteries was not a bunch of "failed early" batteries, but batteries waiting to be recycled. If there was a disproportionate number of one brand, it is most likely only because of a disproportionate number of sales of that brand. Auto parts stores charge a "core" charge to ensure that you bring your battery in to be recycled instead of tossing it. They always assume that any new battery is a replacement for an old battery.

And your battery still should have lasted longer, and some don't ask for receipt. Some batteries are just marked when sold, so you can take them back for a pro-rated refund for any early battery death (at least they did when I used to work for such a store).

Sorry for the tangent.

So here are the things I take away from this discussion:

Some manufacturers have more liberal warranty service policies than others.

It sounds like Cross has a more consumer-friendly policy than Newell/Rubbermaid. That's something you may want to take into account when purchasing your pens. The argument of "it's just economics" works both ways: a company has the right to watch the bottom line, but then so do customers. Nothing wrong with voting with your wallet by buying from a company that has better service policies.

I don't think it's an issue worth emotional turmoil, nor worth taking offense. Waterman made a promise to the original purchaser and never made a promise to the person who got it next or after that. It's important information to pass on to the rest of us, but I don't think the OP got cheated in any way or that Newell/Rubbermaid failed to stand behind their product. They failed to meet another company's standard of service, and as a consumer I want to know that.

I have plenty of four-letter-words reserved for Newell/Rubbermaid's service department, but in the last few years I've not had them quibble with me over having an original receipt. I sent an Edson Diamond Black back to them with a warranty booklet that had a blank space where the dealer's stamp should be. And I sent a Sonnet to them to be serviced and in my phone call from them they told me that since the particular model/country of origin/color/date stamp (I don't recall what combination of these) that it was impossible that the pen was not under warranty. Now I had represented myself as the original owner (I was the original purchaser, it was given as a gift, and I told them that) so perhaps they chose to believe me. In the end I did find the receipt, but they made it clear they would cover it and they did. So even I with my choice words for the service department don't believe that they are sitting around trying to weasel out of every warranty claim that comes across their desks.

On the other hand, the "repair" they made to the Sonnet was worth exactly what I paid for it at the time of the service...

Yeah, I'm fresh off some kind of expensive car repairs today - on a Honda Civic of all things - so there is a logic to "repairs are always somewhat expensive" statements...

I think clarity of the warranty statements is paramount, which has become somewhat blurred with all of the corporate acquisitions of some of these companies. I still react to Parker and Waterman like they are PARKER AND WATERMAN of yore. They are not, really. The image I have in my head and the pleasure I get from holding 45s and 51s - that company is really gone. And that's hard to accept, but I get sad when I see old pictures of the Pan Am building too.

I don't like it when parts cost a ridiculous amount, even when that may be partially justified because of limited production. That's why my Mazda Milennia is now retired and a Honda Civic with 100k miles is sitting in my driveway. I just got tired of the Mazda OEM parts costs with no other options on that car.

So...I guess my take is...if Parker and Waterman made up for high prices with great, intelligent, kind and semi-customized service - like what I can get from Lamy and Chartpak - it would be ok, mostly ok. But I don't think those mitigating factors are there. It is somewhat below-average service and high prices, from what I read. That's reason enough to question whether further "new" purchases are really the best option.

I agree that a company should not necessarily have to provide lifetime, no questions asked service. It sure is nicer when they do, and I think in the end there have been a heck of a lot of pen purchasers who have bought Cross because of that policy.

As to the alternate route - I simply ask not to be greatly disappointed and gouged. And yet, that's where that part of the curve seems to be going.

Not a problem for me, because I love vintage pens and I largely go to non-factory service. I cannot say enough good things about Chartpak and Lamy USA/Filofax service, though. In my previous ballpoint life, I can attest to Cross "no muss, no fuss" service too.

Most of us, sadly, don't consider the service when we fall in love with the pen. Not unlike my frequent semi-subtle advice to young lovers - take the time to make sure you really love your potential in-laws, too. Because they are likely to be around and a part of your life for a long, long time.

My Sonnet, which I received as a gift in Japan, came with a "worldwide lifetime guarantee." I notice that Sonnets sold here in Canada have a much more limited warranty. They stamped my warranty booklet and sent it back with a useful note attached explaining what they did. Unfortunately the new section grip they installed has a big sharp seam in the plastic and the nib sounds like a squeaky chalkboard...

It didn't write before I sent it in, now I can't stand to write with it...

Neill

I once sent my 2002 parker due to a bad first repair, my second repair was invoiced to me 60 euros, needless to say that I wrote Parker customer service a harsh letter of how dissatisfied I was when normally my pen had to be warranted for life. Needless to say I am never going to buy another modern Parker. For what concerns Watermans of the pre 1994 era and the man 100s, I can get mine fixed for free thanks to my favorite penshop, so I don't have to worry about that. However I do agree than newell rubbermaid after sales-customer service sucks.

It's simple. Look at Lamy. They have a lifetime warranty for all of their pens. You send it in with the return postage cost ($7.50 for USA folks) and they'll do what it takes to correct it. If Lamy can do it, why can't the Newell/Rubbermaid billion dollar conglomerate do it?

Here's an odd twist on all this:

I have a friend who had a Waterman for 10-15 years and somehow it got messed up. He's not too careful with his stuff, and I don't remember the details, but it got hosed somehow. Sometime within the last 6 months he sent the pen to Waterman US service with a note saying how much he loved the pen and could they fix it? No documentation of ownership of any kind. They sent him a new pen.

Waterman did something similar for me.

I won a Liaison on eBay and it came with a left-hand oblique nib.
I inked it up and it leaked through the section.
So I sent it off to Waterman and they replaced the section for me.

Well I had no use for a left-hand oblique nib so the pen sat in my case for 3 years.

I finally decided that it was wasted money just sitting there and I called and asked the Service Rep how much it would cost to exchange the nib.
She reminded me that Waterman exchanges nibs free for the first year. I pointed out that I had the pen for probably 3 years, but the nib was unused.
She said to send it in and she'd see what they could do.

Well I sent it in and Waterman replaced the nib for free!

As originally detailed in my first post on this thread, weird that the prior two posts are 180 deg opposite of what I was told when I spoke with Waterman CUSTOMER (NO)SERVICE.

Perhaps, the key is to *somehow* communicate straight thru to the service people. Perhaps the customer (no)service
reps have been tasked with "running interference" for the service dept.

Bruce in Ocala, FL

Isn't CROSS like jewelry pens? They seem overpriced for what you get so maybe you are paying for the warranty up front??
Curly

Free for the first year?
Where is THAT in writing?
I have been told that it is 28 days - any longer and the nib is getting further along in taking on the character of the person's handwriting

I am just reporting what the Service Lady told me.
As I said, I got it used and much older than 1 year, so I had no claims to anything.

Hi,

Aftermarket service is obviously a strong factor in a purchasing decision.
For instance, being a birdwatcher, i bought some cheap binoculars, then after a few years i saved money to buy a good pair. At the local dealer i could choose between Nikon, Swarovski, and Leica. The Nikon price being ridiculous, i was left to choose between Swaro and Leica, the latter providing very slightly better performance. However, after having read horror stories about lens coating peeling of, jammed focus knobs and the like on Leicas and the service center being unable or unwilling to repair the defects despite numerous attempts, i considered buying the Swarovskis. Well, this company also offers a 30-yr warranty but the repair service is said to be quick, efficient, and very professional. Guess what I bought? The Swaros. Ten years later i bought another pair at an estate sales, it was quite battered and i sent it back to Swaro in Austria for repairs, along with a letter which explained i wasn't the first owner and i was asking how much it would cost to repair. Instead of a reply i received in my mailbox the bins, fully refurbished, cleaned, lubricated, smooth, no play in the focus knob, no dings to the body, new rubber eyecups, new leather strap, and a small note from the repair service saying they replaced some lenses too, and they hope i'm happy with their products! Next pair of bins i buy, is no other brand but Swarovski.
The same applies for cars, as they need to be serviced regularly. Having owned several cars in the past, i've settled on a brand that really supports their products and is willing to maintain its cars as well a sell new ones. My daily driver is now a 30 years old Porsche 944 with more miles on the clock that i thought was possible and each time it gets back to the dealer for repairs, spare parts are readily available, they are willing to maintain older cars, they're quick, they're not expensive, and they have even replaced an out-of warranty generator free of charge on the grounds that failure after two years is "sub-average" and i had not even requested anything.
In the long run, i think that companies willing to offer good aftermarket service are also offering cheap and efficient service and shall be favoured since they care about their customers. Other companies are simply not interested in servicing their products, they'd rather sell new ones, so service prices go high (customer deterrent) and warranty goes down. These company are simply willing to increase their profit and do not care about their customers. Why should we care about them?

All the best,
Antonio

Agree with you there.

But all companies are tightening up their repair services...Might it be because they are producing more inferior quality pens so the need for repairs has increased from being a ceremonial service ( lifetime just send it in) to one of actually fixing their mistakes?

Yes but read the title of the thread...look up flame bait in the 'net dictionary and it might be an example

Well, this is interesting. It seems that with Waterman, you're basically left to the whim of the person handling your case. Whereas some people are charged, others are not and even get a free pen?

I bought a beautiful Waterman Concord (circa 1970's) from a well known seller on eBay (he participates here so I won't mention his name) and was surprised by the obvious presence of a hairline crack on the section. I had bought another pen from him that goes with it (a companion ballpoint). He offered to accept the fountain pen return (I'd have to pay postage back), but I would be stuck with the ballpoint--since there was no problem with that, I couldn't return it. He then told me that Waterman is generous on customer service and if a discontinued pen demonstrates a defect, it will very likely be sent back along with a new pen. He claimed that he almost always found this to be true. I decided to call up warranty repair and inquire about being able to send in my pen. They told me that they would not be able to do anything about it. I took a chance and mailed it in anyway. Guess what? I received a notice by mail that, paraphrasing "We're sorry that we are unable to service your pen, as it is a long discontinued model and no replaceable parts are available. If you would like your pen returned, remit $8.00 in shipping costs." I had to PAY to get my pen back! So, it was a $13 experiment.

So, it appears that these remarkable instances of getting a new pen replacement for an irreparable older pen are like winning the lottery.

If a product has a lifetime warranty, it should be for the lifetime of the product. Companies use statistical formulas to determine what warranty period should be offered. If the warranty is for the lifetime of the original purchaser only, there would be too many variables to accurately determine what the warranty period should be. You would have to consider age, gender, health issues of purchasers, economy predictions (will people need to sell to earn extra cash), are these being purchased as an heirloom, how often does one use the pen, etc. The company can in no way know the rate at which to expect warranty repair. The price of a product generally includes the expected cost of warranty repair. Now, when you assume longer time frames (100 ys for example) you can smooth out inconsitencies and anomolies. Now, you can more accurately determine how much to add to the price of the pen to make it feasible to offer a lifetime warranty. That percentage of the pen price should be set aside in a reserve account of sorts to cover warranty work.

So, if they are a reputable company and have calculated warranty needs properly, they should have no problem standing behind the lifetime of the product. When they have to start using fine print, changing policies, manipulating the idea of what a "lifetime" is, I get skeptical. Is it the old bait and switch? If I know a manufacturer offers a lifetime warranty, I factor that into my purchase decision heavily. I mean, if you will fix it for free forever, you must not think your product will fail. If I know you offer a lifetime warranty, and the restrict the heck out of the lifetime, I loose confidence in your company.

As for the car examples earlier in the thread, no one expects a car to have a lifetime warranty. No one offers a lifetime warranty on a car. If you purchase a car brand new with a warranty and then sell the car, the balance of the warranty does in fact transfer to the new owner who is at that point purchasing a used car for less money than originally sold. You see, the manufacturer has already received the money designated for warranty work.

It is more perposterous to expect to continue paying for the warranty each time the item is sold, as this money is not passed onto the manufacturer anyway. They already got their money. A lifetime warranty is a lifetime warranty. A limited lifetime warranty is a limited lifetime warranty. Bait and switch is bait and switch. Personally, I don't care what you offer. Just advertise truthfully what you offer, so I can decide if you deserve my business.

Wow, thanks for the great tip about Swaros. I'm sorry that Leica's service has gotten that bad -- it certainly wasn't when I was in film school.