Here's a few more for the list:

Hawkes Patent Fountain Pen, G. F. Hawkes, NY USA, 1870s, ED, JA, From an ad in the New York Times, May 26, 1870. Lists address at No. 64 Nassau St. NY

Climax, The Climax Fountain Pen Company, NY USA, 1890s, ED?, JA, From an ad/article in the Brooklyn Eagle, Dec 7, 1896 - lists address at 130 Broadway, Brooklyn NY.

Yale Triumph, The Yale Fountain Pen co., NY USA, 1887, ED, JA, Ad in New York Times, Dec 11, 1887 - address at 126 William Street.

New Amsterdam Fountain Pen, John S. Hulin Stationers and Manufacturers, NY USA, 1888, ED?, JA, From a series of ads in the New York Times, circa March 1888 - address at 369 Broadway, NY. Also lists name as "Hulin's Improved" "New-Amsterdam Fountain Pen", so not sure what brand would have been imprinted on the pen itself.

Blair's Gold Fountain Pens, , NY USA, 1890, ED?, JA, New York Times ad, Dec 21, 1890 - 21 John St. only 14 words in ad, so not much other info.

I downloaded the list a while back and I am working on updates to a bunch of the vintage brands . . . slowly. . .

John

And one more - Aiken Lambert should be Aikin Lambert. It is a common mispelling, and I think we are safe correcting it. If you want to keep Aiken Lambert, then list it as a common mispelling of Aikin Lambert (might help clarify for some).

And for the updates:

Aikin Lambert, Aikin Lambert Company?, USA, 1890s-1930s, Multiple styles, JC, Aikin Lambert supplied nibs to L.E. Waterman until Waterman bought them out sometime in the 19-teens? Waterman continued to use the brand as a sub-brand up through the 1930s.

Also

ALCO, trademark of Aikin Lamber Company, USA, 1890s, Multiple styles, JC, see Aikin Lambert - ALCO trademark is often seen on nibs.

Both are already on the list.

John

Another addition:

Keller Special, ?, USA, , ,JA,BCHR pen on ebay - imprint "Keller Special, York PA"

Here is the link:
ebay - lot of 3 bhr pens aikin lambert +++

John

An add -

ACCA, ACCA, Germany, 1923+, JA, Heidelberg, Germany - from L. Michael Fultz article "Who Made this Stuff? Another Chapter... Acca," Penbid Website, 2003. Link.

And an update:

Jiffy, Jiffy Pen Company, USA, ,JA, A pen company conected to the Houston Snap-fil fountain pens, with W.A. Houston listed as manager - from L. Michael Fultz - "With Box and Instructions...." Penbid website, 2003. Link

John

Update to Senator (thanks to this post Senator pen company, is it former MERTZ & KRELL?).

962 , Senator , Senator GmbH & Co. KGaA, Germany , 40's-current, PF , OX , Connected to Diplomat - same deet over mountain logo on both. Brand name choosen by Merz & Krell company - started in 1920s.

John

Thanks for all the info, everyone! (and thanks to Gerry for updating the "master list")

John, you started a thread about a lovely pen made by the Wilrite Pen Company here, late last year. Could we please add it to the list?

Actually it is on the list.

Or at least it was - before Gerry's latest update. What happened to everything after U? Gerry?

I have a few more Wilrite's now - I will need to post an update to that thread.


John

Yikes - I've lost a bunch? No problem - the master I have has the data... Must have been careless with my copy command....

Regards,

Gerry

[Edit - all back to normal now. Wilrite among them]

Thanks a bunch, Gerry!

John, I thought it was kind of weird that the Watermans were missing!
(also, I was wondering what the initials after the companies meant...I thought "MP" meant "mechanical pencils"...Now I see that they are contributors' initials and/or filling mechanisms :doh: )

Yea, Waterman, Wahl, Wirt, - a few critical items missing.

John

Another add:

Supremacy, Supremacy Pen Company, USA, 1920-1925?, LF, JA, From Ebay auction #190041092580, 10/16/2006 - "SUPREMACY PEN COMPANY of MEDFORD MASS." and “SUPREMACY 14K 3” on nib

Link to Auction - RARE VINTAGE 14K NIB SUPREMACY MARBLEIZED FOUNTAIN PEN

John

Hi All,

Got a couple more to add, courtesy of eBay.

First (left-hand image): a second- or third-tier-looking pen by the name of "Lifetime." I'll bet Sheaffer loved that one. Looks to be a 1930s product.

Second (right-hand image): a HR pen by the name of "Cadet," featuring the imprint of a soldier figure. Maybe someone with a knowledge of the history of uniforms could guess at the place of manufacture. As for the year, the WWI era seems a likely guess.

Oh...and we might as well add the fact that "Univer" is a Sheaffer sub-brand.

Cheers,

Jon

Always Ready, , USA, 1910s?, Stylo, JA, From Poughkeepsie, New York - found on David Nishimura's Vintage Pens Website - Pen Catalog, Other Makers - A-C, October 24th, 2006.

Bolles Standard, Bolles, USA, 1900-1920?, Bulb-filler, JA, Obscure Toledo, Ohio brand - also from David's pen catalog, same as above.

Chameleon Four-Way, , USA, 1936?, Squeeze filler, JA, Double-ended pen. Also from VintagePens.com

VintagePens.com, Catalog, Other Makers, A-C

Broadway US FP Co, NY
see: http://cgi.ebay.com/BROADWAY-fountain-pen-...1QQcmdZViewItem

Eggens-Hambler (ECHO), NY USA
see: http://cgi.ebay.com/EGGENS-HAMBLER-CO-EHCO...1QQcmdZViewItem
You have Eggens and Hamble

The H.G. Phillips Pen Co. Williamsport, Pa
see: http://cgi.ebay.com/PHILLIPS-WILLIAMSPORT-...1QQcmdZViewItem

Add NY next to Carey
See: http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-Gold-Fill-Eye-Dro...1QQcmdZViewItem

For the list, I think Eggens-Hambler and ECHO should have entries for both:

Eggens-Hambler, Eggens-Hambler, ?,USA, LF, AZ, New York
ECHO, Eggens-Hambler, ?,USA, LF, AZ, New York

they are actually fairly well collected.

John

Here are a couple of corrections, and a suggestion.

#970 , Settimo Torinese is the name of a city in Italy just outside Torino, not the name of a single pen company. It used to be the center of penmaking in Italy, and there were many pen companies located in the city, even to the extent of calling itself, "the international capital of the pen". There's even a book about the history of penmaking in that city.

Also, #390 , Fullhalter is simply the German word for "fountain holder", just as Fullfeder is German for "fountain pen". I don't think it's the exclusive name of a pen company. ;~)

And one thing that drives me crazy about the list is that a great many of the entries are alphabetized by given name, or by given-name initials instead of by the surname, and also by the word "The" instead of by the actual name. This defeats the whole purpose of alphabetization as it was first conceived in the Middle Ages. ;~)

George Kovalenko.

:ph34r:

George,

Thanks for your input.

I can't (and don't promise to) corroborate every input received about pen companies or brands. Basically that's why I've included the submitter's name - so that one knows who to go to if there is a question. The hardest ones to deal with are those where doubt exists about whether that indeed is a real name, since proving something exists is usually more feasible than proving something doesn't.

In your first case, #970, the Settimo Tourinese - the entry was submitted by Kissing http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/in...ndpost&p=117512 . The way he mentioned it appears to suggest that he's seen the pen, or a reference to it with enough detail to suggest that it's a 51 clone, so I suspect that it does exist, despite having the same name as the city. In this vein, it should be noted that the names include both pen companies and model names to aid in identification. If that's a poor way to set out a list, we should look at that aspect.

The second example, # 390, Fullhalter - the entry was one of the originals input by Max Davis (MaxPen). I just don't know whether it is a Company, Model or generic reference. I have inquired, but don't know whether there is further info to be had. I think I'll leave it in the list for now, just in case. The lack of any further data on the pen should suggest that it hasn't been deeply researched.

Regarding your final point, I agree, the list doesn't follow a classical alphabetized format, but I don't agree that it defeats the entire purpose of alphabetization. The method employed was to list what was likely to be seen on the pen itself, which might be the first thing the person searching for information is looking for. Nevertheless, you have a point, and I'd like to know whether others have been fighting the system to find references to pens they were looking for, but being frustrated by the organization.

I'm certainly willing to reorder the list, but want to know before I do that I won't be creating more difficulties than I'm solving.

There will always be difficulties, as I note many names thet may require some thinking: Pierre Cardin -> Cardin, Pierre? Alpha Romeo -> Romeo, Alpha? C.E. Barrett & Co -> Barrett & Co., C. E.? E. Faber -> Faber, E? Eberhard Faber -> Faber, Eberhard?

How about Le Boeuf, Le Lorraine, Le Merle Blanc (Merle Blanc, Le or Blanc, Le Merle? ;~)). Here Le is just the French for 'The'... right? Then there's the 'The' list - but is The Tower the name or is it the Tower?

All right - 'nuf funnin'. There are some things to be cleaned up certainly. I wonder if I could get some consensus on which approach to take wrt the names, particulatly when there are conflicts with names vs alphabetization.

Anyone else out there with some relevant experience? How about Yoyology?

Regards,

Gerry

:bunny1: Hello,

I am new in FPN and roaming around I found this forum.
I think it is a great initiative to make a database setup for all known fountain pens. It can be of great help to identify and classify pens.
As the data model is more or less comma delimited I was able to convert the file into the data management program I use and now it is fairly easy for me to add, change, and complete records. A lot of records have empty fields that need to be completed and I think I can make some contribution to that task.
I'm living in the Netherlands and there are a lot of local Dutch brands that could be added. Also some Belgian en some of the smaller or 'lesser' German manufacturers.

To start with I have a proposal to add a code to the Filling Mechanism list (used in the 'TYPE' field, as I was missing a code for cartridge/converter fillers. 'CC' ?
And maybe CR for cartridge only (as CF is already in use). I wonder if a third letter in the code could be used to indicate the type of cartridge as Parker, Sheaffer, Waterman (several), Wearever, Lamy and a lot of other brands each used the own cartridge models and systems. Same for converters.

Please let me know If my proposals make sense to you so I can make a contribution to this fine job of Max and Gerry.

LEXAF

You have some excelent ideas there Lex.

The reason I included the commas in the post is exactly that - to allow importation into Excel or DB's like Access. Since it's a flat DB, either work well.

Feel free to add, update and otherwise improve our product - it's a collaborative effort, and every bit of assistance is appreciated.

ALthough Max hasn't been around for some time, I recently emailed him this list, and he offered to update it with new names he's collected since. I haven't seen any response yet. His initial data was limited to just the list of names - we've added the other data as it has become available.

As I moderate a couple of forums, and moonlight as an administrator, I sometimes don't find enough time available to keep the list up to date, or to improve it to be a relatively complete DB with information that more serious collectors might be interested in. I'd like to see it take that direction, as a public domain source of information is probably needed.

Regards,

Gerry

Hello Gerry,

Thank you for your positive answer.

I will do some work at the list for the coming time (as long as there will be time available)

For now some remarks and suggestions :

1.) I recommend to drop the 'fixed' record numbers. They complicate the transfer in to a 'personal' data system and every time a major upgrade of the list is performed, the numbering will change. The main entry for the list should (IMHO) the brand/branding (trade mark) of the pen. When published with the brand in strict alphbetical order the list can be read and conul;ted in a fairly easys way, even only in print without the use of a data base (telephone book).

2.) I noticed there is quite a lot of contamination in the data fields of which i will name two: remarks in fields that should be fixed formatted and brand names used as type names en vise versa. There is a delemma here: should the list be confid to brands only, with a reference to sub brands, or should there be the possibility to reference to every known type or model name of each known brand name (or branding as you call it). I 'd prefer the last. The list will grow huge, but only then it will be of real use as a tool to determin 'found' pens .

3.) A difficult one: I think it is important that the different record fields have some formatting. That concerns the content (see remark 2) as well as the data formatting (e.g. date: year only? (yyyy) period? (yyyy-yyyy), complete date? (yyyy-mm-dd = european , or mm-dd-yyyy = usa?)

4. ) a small practical suggestion, adding to my earlyer remark about the missing Style code for cartridge fillers; there also seems to be missing a code for Safety fillers. Would 'SA' do?

So far for now. When I will be working on the list I think I will encounter more 'bugs' and booby traps but I'll try to report on my findins and solution proposals as much as possible.

Some questions:
Is it ok to use this tread for my results and findings?
How do I get the enhanced versions of the list or the records to you?
Is there any existing planning publishing new / revised versions?
Can you contact me with other fools like me who (want to) work on this list on a more or less regular basis?

My apologies for my English, being Dutch my English grammar and spelling will not always be correct.

Hope I did not bore you!

Regards, LEXAF aka Lex van Galen

21-11-2006

Hello

This week I worked on 'the grand list'.

First:
Mutations on already existing records. Most of them have supplementary data I found, and some of them changed because I tried to 'normalize' the record, especially where in my opinion, the 'BRANDING' and the 'NAME' field where mixed up.
In some cases you will see the same name now in 'NAME' as in "BRANDING', that is where the name of the company is the same as the (trade mark) name on the pen itself. (example: I changed ,Acme,,,,,MP to Acme,Acme,USA,Current,CC,LE)
This has something to do with the problem 'model'names versus 'brand'names and like many others in this tread i do not have a solution yet so solve that problem, so I will continue the convention of using trade mark names and model names in the same 'NAME'field.

Second:
New entries to add to the list. I entered some entries for the very well known brands as well. I realise that there was a discussion on wether or not to enter the 'top brand names'. (as everybody would know these allready). I think that ALL names should be entered because everyone that wants to use this list must be able to find his or her pens to identify, also the less expirienced collectors. But also the diehards among us can benefit from this because then it will be possible to make reference to the exotic brands and trade marks or less known model names that are associated with the top firms.

Third:
Added attributes for Style (Filler Type):
CC = Cartridge/Converter Filler
CO = Cartridge Only Filler
CR = Crescent Filler
SA = Safety Filler

Added attribute for Contrib:
LE = LEXAF = Lex van Galen, the Netherlands = yours truly


I hope I used a format that Gerry can use for updating the 'grand list'
Note that I left out the '#' field (obsolete, IMHO) and I changed the delimiter " comma space " into a single " comma ", as it would not fit into my database program with a space as first character in each field. (That is what happened when I tried to convert the original list directly into my application).
If the changes where not significant I kept the original Contributor code, for major updates and new entries I took the freedom to use a new contributor code for myself: LE

If you find problems, please let me know.

I'd like to post the first results hereunder. I hope for lots of comments!

NAME,BRANDING,COUNTRY,DATE,STYLE,CONTRIB
Carter(s),Carter Pen Co.,USA, Mass., Boston,1926-1932,,LE
Diabolo,Cartier,France,Current,CC,LE
Pasha,Cartier,France,Current,CC,LE
Trinity,Cartier,France,Current,CC,LE
Ingersoll,Charles H. Ingersoll Dollar Pen Co.,USA,1930,TF,LE
All-American,Conklin sub-brand,,,,LE
The Toledo Fountain Pen Co.,Conklin sub-brand,,,,LE
365,Delta,Italy,Current,CC,LE
Riflessi,Delta,Italy,Current,CC,LE
,Durand and Co.,USA - Cincinatti,,,LE
A. W. Faber,Faber-Castell,Germany,,,LE
,J.D. Snow,USA - Cincinatti,,,LE
Generation,Mont Blanc,Germany,Current,CC,LE
Hommage a Mozart,Mont Blanc,Germany,Current,CO,LE
Meisterstuck,Mont Blanc,Germany,,,LE
Celluloid Collection,Omas,Italy,Current,PF,LE
Paragon,Omas,Italy,Current,CO,LE
,Simplofiller,USA, OH, Cincinnati,,,LE
,The Akron Fountain Pen Co.,USA, OH, Akron,,,LE
,The Betzler Fountain Pen Co.,USA, OH, Akron,,,LE
Conklin (see also branding Conklin),The Conklin Pen Manufacturing Co.,USA, OH, Toledo,,,LE
Clymax,The John Holland Co. sub-brand,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
College,The John Holland Co. sub-brand,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
Columbia,The John Holland Co. sub-brand,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
Dexter,The John Holland Co. sub-brand,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
Duplex,The John Holland Co. sub-brand,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
Eureka,The John Holland Co. sub-brand,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
Fountograph,The John Holland Co. sub-brand,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
Imperator,The John Holland Co. sub-brand,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
Imperial,The John Holland Co. sub-brand,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
Jewel,The John Holland Co. sub-brand,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
MacKinnon,The John Holland Co. sub-brand,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
Paragold,The John Holland Co. sub-brand,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
Perfection,The John Holland Co. sub-brand,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
Red Giant,The John Holland Co. sub-brand,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
Royal,The John Holland Co. sub-brand,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
Self-Inking,The John Holland Co. sub-brand,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
University,The John Holland Co. sub-brand,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
Victor,The John Holland Co. sub-brand,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
John Holland,The John Holland Gold Pen Co.,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
Conklin predecessor,The Self Fountain Pen Co.,USA - Toledo,,,LE
,The Weidlich Pen Co.,USA - Cincinatti,,,LE
The Pick Pen Co.,The Weidlich Pen Co. sub-brand,USA - Cincinatti,,,LE
The Star Pen Co.,The Weidlich Pen Co. sub-brand,USA - Cincinatti,,,LE
Vendex,Vendex,NL,1950-1960,,LE
Carene,Waterman Paris,France,Current,CC,LE
Edson,Waterman Paris,France,Current,CC,LE
Expert 2000,Waterman Paris,France,Current,CC,LE
Expert II,Waterman Paris,France,Current,CC,LE
Hemisphere,Waterman Paris,France,Current,CC,LE
L'Etalon,Waterman Paris,France,Current,CC,LE
Liason,Waterman Paris,France,Current,CC,LE
Phileas,Waterman Paris,France,Current,CC,LE
Preface,Waterman Paris,France,Current,CC,LE
,Weidlich and Simpson,USA, OH, Cincinnati,,,LE


The alphabetical order is in the 'Branding' field so maybe the following version is easier to read

BRANDING,NAME,COUNTRY,DATE,STYLE,CONTRIB
A. Morton,A. Morton,USA,,,LE
A.A. Waterman,Resevo,USA - Chicago,1903,TF,LE
Acme,Acme,USA,Current,CC,LE
Aikin Lambert,Alco,USA,,,LE
Ajax,Ajax,USA,1920-1930,LF,LE
Akkerman,P.W. Akkerman,NL,ca. 1935-1955,BF,LE
Ambassador,Ambassador,USA,,,LE
Ancora,Capri,Italy,1919-current,CC,LE
Ancora,Paua,Italy,1919-current,BF,LE
Ancora,Tuscany,Italy,1919-current,CC,LE
Ancora,Unica,Italy,1919-current,BF,LE
Arnold,Arnold,USA,,,LE
Artcraft,Artcraft,USA,,,LE
Artus,Artus Ballit,Germany,1942 -1952,PF,LE
Artus,Artus Favorit,Germany,1942 -1952,,LE
Artus,Artus Record,Germany,1942 -1952,,LE
Aurora,88,Italy,1950-current,PF,LE
Aurora,Primavera,Italy,Current,PF,LE
Autocraft,Autocraft,USA,,,LE
Autofiller,Autofiller,USA,1915-1920,TF,LE
Autopoint,Autopoint,USA,,,LE
Betzler and Wilson,,USA - Akron,,,LE
Boston Fountain Pen Co.,Wahl - Eversharp predecessor,USA,1914,LF,LE
Byers & Hayes,Byers & Hayes,USA,1900-1930,ED,LE
Carter Pen Co.,Carter(s),USA, Mass., Boston,1926-1932,,LE
Cartier,Diabolo,France,Current,CC,LE
Cartier,Pasha,France,Current,CC,LE
Cartier,Trinity,France,Current,CC,LE
Charles H. Ingersoll Dollar Pen Co.,Ingersoll,USA,1930,TF,LE
Conklin sub-brand,All-American,,,,LE
Conklin sub-brand,The Toledo Fountain Pen Co.,,,,LE
Delta,365,Italy,Current,CC,LE
Delta,Riflessi,Italy,Current,CC,LE
Durand and Co.,,USA - Cincinatti,,,LE
Faber-Castell,A. W. Faber,Germany,,,LE
J.D. Snow,,USA - Cincinatti,,,LE
Mont Blanc,Generation,Germany,Current,CC,LE
Mont Blanc,Hommage a Mozart,Germany,Current,CO,LE
Mont Blanc,Meisterstuck,Germany,,,LE
Omas,Celluloid Collection,Italy,Current,PF,LE
Omas,Paragon,Italy,Current,CO,LE
Simplofiller,,USA, OH, Cincinnati,,,LE
The Akron Fountain Pen Co.,,USA, OH, Akron,,,LE
The Betzler Fountain Pen Co.,,USA, OH, Akron,,,LE
The Conklin Pen Manufacturing Co.,Conklin (see also branding Conklin),USA, OH, Toledo,,,LE
The John Holland Co. sub-brand,Clymax,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
The John Holland Co. sub-brand,College,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
The John Holland Co. sub-brand,Columbia,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
The John Holland Co. sub-brand,Dexter,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
The John Holland Co. sub-brand,Duplex,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
The John Holland Co. sub-brand,Eureka,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
The John Holland Co. sub-brand,Fountograph,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
The John Holland Co. sub-brand,Imperator,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
The John Holland Co. sub-brand,Imperial,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
The John Holland Co. sub-brand,Jewel,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
The John Holland Co. sub-brand,MacKinnon,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
The John Holland Co. sub-brand,Paragold,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
The John Holland Co. sub-brand,Perfection,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
The John Holland Co. sub-brand,Red Giant,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
The John Holland Co. sub-brand,Royal,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
The John Holland Co. sub-brand,Self-Inking,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
The John Holland Co. sub-brand,University,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
The John Holland Co. sub-brand,Victor,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
The John Holland Gold Pen Co.,John Holland,USA - Cincinatti,1880-1920,,LE
The Self Fountain Pen Co.,Conklin predecessor,USA - Toledo,,,LE
The Weidlich Pen Co.,,USA - Cincinatti,,,LE
The Weidlich Pen Co. sub-brand,The Pick Pen Co.,USA - Cincinatti,,,LE
The Weidlich Pen Co. sub-brand,The Star Pen Co.,USA - Cincinatti,,,LE
Vendex,Vendex,NL,1950-1960,,LE
Waterman Paris,Carene,France,Current,CC,LE
Waterman Paris,Edson,France,Current,CC,LE
Waterman Paris,Expert 2000,France,Current,CC,LE
Waterman Paris,Expert II,France,Current,CC,LE
Waterman Paris,Hemisphere,France,Current,CC,LE
Waterman Paris,L'Etalon,France,Current,CC,LE
Waterman Paris,Liason,France,Current,CC,LE
Waterman Paris,Phileas,France,Current,CC,LE
Waterman Paris,Preface,France,Current,CC,LE
Weidlich and Simpson,,USA, OH, Cincinnati,,,LE

Max provided a picture of the pen box with the name inscribed...

Don't know whether that should be filed as Faun-Fullhalter or Fullhalter... any ideas?

Gerry

Thanks for all the effort you've put into working on the database Lex. I'm sure we'll all appreciate the new form when we get through the teething problems.

If it's easier, I'd suggest we exchange the databases by email - my attempt to use csv online was to allow simple importation into excel, but was insufficient in some cases, simce the comment field often contained commas not used as delimiters.

Finally, Max provided some comments (also suggesting that the effort to categorize by both company name and model was going to be problematic - as we have noted. The only advantage was if it were used as an index - where the user may not know the name was a model, brand or company.

In any case, I'd like to forward you his email and list comments to see whether they are applicable.

Please PM me your email address, and I'll send you his stuff, and my excel spreadsheet...

Regards

Gerry

25-11-2006

Hello,

Thanks Gerri for your reply. Glad to hear you appreciate my work.

I'll PM the export of the complete content of the datalist as it is now in my application. It will be more than one version:
1) The list in its original model: (NAME,BRANDING,COUNTRY,DATE,STYLE,CONTRIB)
2) The list in the 'new' order: (BRANDING,NAME,COUNTRY,DATE,STYLE,CONTRIB)
3) The list in my own 'enhanced' version, where I added some extra fields like
'MUTECODE' (only 2 parameters: 'upd'or'new')
'MUTEDATE' (date of the record mutation)
'PICTURE' (graphic field, can contain .jpg image of the specific pen recorded)
'OWNER' (only used when pen is my own of someone I know peronally)
'DESCRIP' (a memo field with relevant info about pen or manufacturer)
'REF' (links to relevant source on website or book publication)
'REMARK' (mainly used for 'see' or 'see also' cross-reference to other records)

(I'll zip the different files into one archive.zip; hope you can handle that)

Look at the screen shot for the program presentation; entry screen.

I'm looking forward to the mails with Max'comments and your excel sheet.

Your remark on using commas in memo/comment fields is interesting: the use of a comma delimited export model for the data to be able to interchange data between users implicates that NO COMMAS MAY BE USED in every other case than as a delimiter! A mistake is easily made! E.g. the last record in my last posting:
Weidlich and Simpson,,USA, OH, Cincinnati,,,LE
(WRONG! USA, OH, Cincinatty.... I changed that in USA - Cincinatty).
There will still be a problem with the comma's in the 'DESCRIPT' memo field I use, as I often copy&paste complete text blocks from articles I find on the web. For instance the manufacturer descriptions I found on the excellent manufacturers list on http://www.pensandwatches.com/Penprofiles.htm by Bruce and Ruth Speary.

A solution could be to use another character for the delimiter e.g.: '*'. For myself that will not be a problem because my program can export with every delimiter character i choose, but I do not know if everyone has that possibility with the application he or she will use. I'm thinking about a more sophisticated solution for this.

Have a nice weekend!

Regards from Rijswijk, The Netherlands (or Holland as most people say),
Lex

yet another screenshot:

note the picture of the pens is not a 'real' photo, but a scan.
Using a flatbed scanner (in this case a Canoscan D646U) is a very easy and efficient way of recording pictures of litthe artifacts like pens. I sometimes make photo's of my pens (mostly when I want to sell) and if one is interested I could post some, but there is another topic on that subject I found out so I will send some pics to that topic in near future..

Regards, Lexaf

:bunny1: Hi!

Füllhalter is just the German word for fountain pen.
As far as I can see on the picture the brand(?) name is "Faun".
So it should be filed as Faun.
BTW, I can not find any reference to the name Faun, so I'd wait with adding to the list until more data are available.
Idea: There could be a second list with records that are waiting for more details or need verification. Sort of 'Incomplete & Proposals list.' Conventions could be that at least 2 or 3 parameters are needed in one record and that at least one external and independent references must be found (sort of what they do in genealogical databases).

Lex

That Charles Ingersoll entry should be dated 1924-1930. I don't think they made it long past 1930 - if anyone has info to the contrary, I would love to hear it.

I also think we need to be careful about how we list companies that are taken over by another - I would list them seperately first, then a note about them becoming a sub-brand.

Pick Pen Co, for example - I don't know if they were ever a sub-brand of Weidlich, but they started out as an independant company. See this link at Lion and Pen Pick and Weidlich, A bit of confusion

John

Thank you, John for your remarks.

I just started to work on this list and one of the problems I encounter is the field definition. 'DATE' in this list is most of the time not a date but sometimes only a year indication and sometimes a period indication. And most of the time just
approximately!
Given the fact that not much is to be found about the history of Charles Ingersoll pens I am thankfull that more data will appear as a result of publishing adjustments in the records in the list. It is good to see that with these publications we stimulate each other to do more research on records we find that need correction.
So I believe you are right and I'll change the year 1930 to the period 1924-1930.

I also agree with you to be careful about connections between brand names. Funny thing is that in this case my information was based on an article from the same author Rob Astyk on the same site/forum, but from an earlyer date ( look at http://kamakurapens.invisionzone.com/index...aded&show=&st=& , 3rd posting, march,25). In the article you mention (april, 29) he publishes some more details. Anyway, I'll make a separate main entry (in 'BRANDING') for The Pick Pen Company. See below for a screen shot of the data in my data base program.
Problem is that these important details about firm relationships cannot be recorded in the basic form of the list ( the 'NAME' and 'BRANDING' fields) but can only be explained in an extra 'REMARK' field. So it works for me, but not for everyone who works with the 'basic' records.

Remains the question: what was actually engraved as a trade mark on the actual Pick pens? Does anyone of you know? Who owns one to show us?

Regards,

Lex

Ok, some new data:

Model: Durabuilt, Maker: Beaumel, Source: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=130051951673

Model: The Aristocrat, Maker: Beaumel, Source: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=280056145936

Model: The Rival, Maker: Beaumel, Source: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...item=6617611225

This last adds to John's remark here. In other words that are more than one models named Rival from different makers.

Also if you look at the ebay item it is an add that included the Wright Pen Co. from St Louis Missouri

05-11-2006

:quote:
Ok, some new data:

Model: Durabuilt, Maker: Beaumel, Source: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=130051951673

Model: The Aristocrat, Maker: Beaumel, Source: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=280056145936

Model: The Rival, Maker: Beaumel, Source: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...item=6617611225

This last adds to John's remark here. In other words that are more than one models named Rival from different makers.

Also if you look at the ebay item it is an add that included the Wright Pen Co. from St Louis Missouri
:quote:

Thanks, Antoniosz, for your new entries.
I added them in my database. see below.

I am not sure when I will be able to publish the new entries and mutations as a new upgrade of the list, I think that may not be before the end of January 2007. Besides I need to have some more feedback from Gerry and I am still hoping for more comments on the proposals I did on enhancing the list.


In 'flat database' format (note I added the asterix as an extra delimiter to prevend mixing up with the 'text commas').

*Beaumel*,*see D.W. Beaumel & Co. Inc.*,**,**,**,*LE*
*D.W. Beaumel & Co. Inc.*,*Aristocrat*,*US - New York*,*1920*,*LF*,*AZ*
*D.W. Beaumel & Co. Inc.*,*Durabilt*,*US - New York*,*1920*,*LF*,*AZ*
*D.W. Beaumel & Co. Inc.*,*Rival*,*US - New York*,*1903*,*ED*,*AZ*
*Wright Pen Co.*,*Wright*,*USA - St. Louis*,*1903*,*ED*,*AZ*



In presentation form, from my own program: (including extra fields)

------------------------------------------

NAME see D.W. Beaumel & Co. Inc.
BRANDING Beaumel
COUNTRY
DATE
STYLE
CONTRIB LE
MUTECODE NEW
MUTEDATE 4-12-2006
PICTURE
OWNER
REF
DESCRIPT
REMARK

-------------------------------------------

NAME Aristocrat
BRANDING D.W. Beaumel & Co. Inc.
COUNTRY USA - New York
DATE 1920
STYLE LF
CONTRIB AZ
MUTECODE NEW
MUTEDATE 4-12-2006
PICTURE
OWNER
REF E-bay - clila19 (seller)
DESCRIPT Circa 1920's Aristocrat (D.W.
Beaumel & Co) - LF - BCHR - 14KT
Gold flex nib. Ca. 5 1/2" capped.
Barrel imprint: The Aristocrat Mnfd.
and Guaranteed by D.W. Beaumel
and Co. Inc. N.Y.. Imprint on clip
also says Aristocrat.
REMARK
----------------------------------------------------

NAME Durabilt
BRANDING D.W. Beaumel & Co. Inc.
COUNTRY USA - New York
DATE 1920
STYLE LF
CONTRIB AZ
MUTECODE NEW
MUTEDATE 4-12-2006
PICTURE
OWNER
REF E-bay
DESCRIPT This is an oversize fountain pen
that was made in the USA in the
1920s by DW Beaumel of New York.
Beaumel was a pen manufacturer
back into the 1800s who sold pens
up to the 1930s. They were a
manufacturer and a parts supplier.
This is a high quality pen.
Maker: Beaumel
Model: Durabilt
Size: oversize
Color: jade green
Year: 1920s
Country of Origin: USA
Cap Material: plastic
Barrel Material: plastic
Style: flattop
Cap Style: screw on
Trim Material: gold filled
Length with cap on: 5 3/16"
Nib Marking: 14K made in USA
Nib Material: 14K Gold
Nib Flexibility: semi-flex
Nib Width (tip): medium
Imprint: Durabilt DW Beaumel &
Co Inc NY
Imprint location: barrel
Filling system: lever fill
REMARK http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.
dll?ViewItem&item=130051951673
by W-B Pen & Watch

-------------------------------------------------------

NAME Rival
BRANDING D.W. Beaumel & Co. Inc.
COUNTRY USA - New York
DATE 1903
STYLE ED
CONTRIB AZ
MUTECODE NEW
MUTEDATE 4-12-2006
PICTURE
OWNER
REF E-bay - 15rubyjuwels (seller)
DESCRIPT
REMARK Old Advertisement.


-------------------------------------------------------


NAME Wright
BRANDING Wright Pen Co.
COUNTRY USA - St. Louis
DATE 1903
STYLE ED
CONTRIB AZ
MUTECODE NEW
MUTEDATE 4-12-2006
PICTURE
OWNER
REF E-bay - 15rubyjuwels (seller)
DESCRIPT
REMARK Old Advertisement

-----------------------------------------------------------

Best regards to you all,

Lex

Lex,

You asked a couple questions that I don't remember answering, so here's a shot at addressing them:




Warm regards,

Gerry

Waldmann, a great German pen.

http://www.waldmannpen.com/

Best regards

Leo Kress

Hello Leo,

Thanks for your contribution. I added it to my list. (see below for complete record; the part in blue is ment for the 'short' list, rest is -for the present- for my own data system only).
Question - just to be complete - can you tell me what filling system is used? (cartridge, converter, piston, etc.?) Cannot find that in the specs on their website.

Regards,
Lex

New record:
*TRADE MARK*,*SUBBRAND OF*,*MODEL*,*COUNTRY*,*PROD YEAR*,*FILL. SYST.*,*CONTRIB.*,*MUTECODE*,*2006-12-08*,*OWNER*,*REF*,*FINISH*,*%DESCRIPT.%*,*%REMARK%*

*Waldmann*,**,*several*,*Germany*,*1918-current*,**,*LE*,*NEW*,*2006-12-08*,**,*http://www.waldmannpen.com/*,**,*%%*,*%The company started in 1918 with the production of mechanical pencils. Fountain pens since 1956.%*

Hello Gerry,

Tanks so much for your comments. Reactions: (in green.. )

QUOTE

I'll mail you a fresh update in the new datamodel one of these days. Workng out and normalizing the Conway Steward associated brands......, pffff.....



That's it for today... sorry for the typo's,
I't s 0.41 AM local time, Im going to sleep.... 9

Best regards,
Lex

Gerry, in your first list, #689 is Montefiore. I have a Montefiore pen, and can't find a converter to fit. Any thoughts on who knows about these pens? My query on this list about it did not get any replies.

thanks.

John

Personally I know little about those pens. I see that KS - Kissing entered the name, perhaps he knows more about it. Try PM'ing Kissing to see if he knows.

Regards,

Gerry

The mentmore pen company which did produce some very fine pens, here is an example for sale http://www.trocadero.com/rosenah/items/569...69238store.html

regards

georges

Hello Georges,

Thanks for the Mentmore reference.

I added the entry in the data list. See below. (blue is short list)

Best regards, Lex


TRADE_MARK Mentmore
SUB_BR_OF
MODEL Autoflow
COUNTRY UK
PROD_YEAR 1935
FILL_SYST BF
CONTRIB LE

MUTECODE NEW
MUTEDAT 2007-01-02
OWNER
REF Lambrou, Fountain Pens of the World, 2nd ed. 1998, p. 148 and http://www.trocadero.com/rosenah/items/569...69238store.html
DESCRIPT Produced by the Mentmore Manufacturing Company these well made sturdy Mentmore pens were a workhorse among writing instruments and weathered the test of time. Probably made during the mid 1930s period although having survived the blitz of the World War several model types of the Mentmore auto flow series were soon again in production by the late 1940s. Ink filling is by button method accessed by unscrewing the section at the end of the pens barrel. 14 carat gold Mentmore medium point size nib. Gold plated ball end design pocket clip having the Mentmore emblem engraved in outline on it.
REMARK Different sub-brands were made. See also: Platignum. Other model names were: Senior, Reliance and Diploma.
PICTURE
FINISH

nice job thank you Lexaf

Hi All,

Anyone out there?

Found this on e-bay, while looking for references to the 'Avon' brand. :
The sellers text is:
Quote:
This early 1950's vintage black ROSA 'CP' fountain pen has two changebale gold plated nibs that screw into the pen section. This model is a new never used original stock and comes with a fine point and medium point nib. The extra nib is stored in the pen barrel. The pen has the original never used rubber ink sac which is still good and useable after 50 years! The fountain pen was manufactured by Rosa Pen Company located in Lyndhurst, New Jersey in 1951. (Rosa manufactured pens and pen parts in the 1920's for many fountain pen companieis including Camel, Swan Mabie-Todd, Meader, Hartline and private labeled for Avon and Hickock) Included with this pen is a bottle of blue fountain pen ink recommended for use with vintage pens. A great gift for any collector or fountain pen lover. This pen will write with a smooth feather touch. Don't let this unused origianl get away!!
Unquote
(sellers picture of the pen below)

Can anyone verify these data? More info about AVON?

Hope to hear from you!

Lex

I was not able to copy a working link to the ebay page, so I edited it it out.
Look for item no. : 6631129577

Posting this query for a member who wonders if we have any info on it...

merkur fountain pens
please tell me what you know about this pen i am so lost it has and edel nib and a jeweled cap. it is also marked marlcanl
as far as i can tell the letters are kinda funny looking ive used the chalk to get a better look but still come up with the same thing please help!

mstbare019

Anyone know more than what's in the list?

Gerry

Hi Gerry,


As far as I can see Merkur is not in the list, but I am not 100% sure, because the revised version I am working on at the moment is heavily 'Under Construction"

A picture of your pen would be of great help, then I could make a comparison. I happen to have one pen with that brandname in my collection, so I'll show some pics of that one below. I do not know much about this one either, but it's defenitely German made, probably early thirties , celluloid with HR blind cap and cap end. Button filler. Very short: only 9cm capped! The nib is not original, it had a heavily rusted (once gold plated) steel nib, but it was so damaged I replaced it with a gold plated steel Bock nib. Maybe the lettering of the Merkur brand and the logo will help to identify your pen, maybe it's from the same source.

Hope this is of any help, the brand will be entered in the datalist anyway....

Regards,

Lex

Hi,

1) A question for Antoniosz:

Wat is (was) your reference for 'Bantam - Conway Stuart Associated - UK" in 'the list' ? ( your code AZ was in the list for this record) I can find data about the Wahl-Eversharp miniature Bantam pens (Nishimura - Binder) but nothing referring to Conway Stuart....

2) Besides that: Nishimura talks about bulb fillers in his article about the Wahl Eversharp Bantam pens.
http://www.vintagepens.com/Eversharp_Bantams.shtml
This type was not in the list yet, so I added a code BU in the list for the filling mechanism field.
http://www.vintagepens.com/filling_instruc...b-fillers.shtml

3) I have a similar type of pen in my collection but the brand is unknown to me.
Victapen New York? Chrome trimming, ca. 10 cm. short, bulb filler. Not the original nib.
Anyone any information? (see pic below, don't worry, the white chalk can be washed away ))

That's it for now...

Regards,
Lex

Edited for typos...

Lex, the pen was on the earlier list - entered by MaxPen (see #669) but that's all the information that there was, just the pen name. Well, with the pic's of yours we have established the reference, and teresa has a second pen sighting - hers.

Perhaps you could post a picture of your pen Teresa.

Regards,

Gerry

It doesn't add much information, but the Victapen looks like it uses patent #US1918844, by Edward Hugetz of New York, July 18, 1933. It does not list an assignment, so we don't know if there was a company associated with Edward Hugetz.

However, Hugetz was also the inventor of US1392569, a telscoping fountain pen in 1921. Telescoping Fountian pens were sold by a couple of manufactureres, one of which was the U.S. Victor Fountain Pen Company, which incorporated in June of 1919. Hugetz is not one of the people named on the incorporation papers.

With the name Victapen and the potential Hugetz connection, I would be willing to bet that it was a brand name of U.S. Victor, but we can't be certain without a little more info.

John

Hi Gerry and John,

Gerry: I'll add the Merkur data to the list.

John: Good work! the drawing in the patent is almost congruent to my pen. Full date match on the pen and the date stamp on the document . So that could not be better.

On David Nishimura's site you can see some Victor pens ( one is a telescoping pen! )
see http://www.vintagepens.com/catillP-Z.shtml , but these are clearly from a higher quality than my pen, also much earlyer, 1905-1925.
My pen is depression period. Maybe a subbrand for cheapo's?
So I'll enter the Victapen brand as a new entry in the list with a reference to the patent you found. It can always be changed later if someone shows up with a relationship between "United States Fountain Pen Victor" as it is called on David's site and my Victapen.
Thanks a lot anyway

Further: I checked the datalist and there is no "United States Fountain Pen Victor" entry either, only a Victor-Conway Stuart associated reference. and a Victor sub-brand from John Holland, but that one is dated much earlyer (1880-1920) and from Cincinatty, the "United States Fountain Pen Victor" pens are, according to Nishimura, from New York. So If nobody objects I'll add this New York Victor branch also, with a reference to Nishimura's site.

Note: the references I add in the database are at the moment only existing in the system I am working with, not in the published shorter list from Gerry and Max. In the near future I will try to work out a method of publishing the (updated) short list as well as the 'extended' list with a lot of added information such as source references, remarks and extended descriptions for a lot of pens. This version will not be easy to publish as a simple text list in a posting, but maybe there is a way that members of this forum can download a complete file that contains all the data? At the moment I have no idea if a thing like that can be realized through the possibilities of this forum site or even by the organisation that hosts this site.

comes time, comes wisdom.....

That's it for today, love to hear your comments, as always.

Regards,

Lex

Hi All,

Yet another posting....

In the (original)list is:
42 , American , , , , , MP

In my junk box I found... an American (wreck) (see pic below)
Looks very Wearever like? Agree?
So I added:
TRADE_MARK American
SUB_BR_OF Wearever?
MODEL
COUNTRY USA
PROD_YEAR ~1935
FILL_SYST LF
CONTRIB MP

If anyone is interested in the pen.... send me a PM. The cap is ok!... You can have it if you send 5 euro's or 6USD (for mail costs) to my address in Holland, I'll mail to you. First one hits!

Regards,

Lex

I just came across this thread, and found it interesting. I have to say, however, that I take strong exception with the description of Century Pen Co as a Barrett subbrand. The company was founded in 1892 with none other than George S Parker and William F Palmer on the board of directors. I would guess that about 1910'ish Century started procuring parts from Barrett. In fact, they purchased so many parts from Barrett that he was their principal creditor when they went belly-up in 1932. As part of the bankruptcy settlement, Barrett acquired the Century name and patents. So, the last year or two of the name they were a Barrett brand, but only after the bankruptcy.


Dave

The Designation of several of the brands as "C.E. Barrett Sub-brands" has bothered me for quite some time. Someone read one of George K.s posts that about C.E. Barrett that said Barrett made parts for brands x,y,z, etc. and someone confused that with the various brands being sub-brands of C.E. Barrett. I think it needs major clarification.

It is also difficult to capture the changing ownership of a single pen brand when it goes through various different changes in ownership. I think the "Notes" area needs to be used widely to clarify a lot of this stuff. That or a second entry for companies like Century, with notes clarifying the connection between the two. After all, you could technically call Wahl-Eversharp a Parker Sub-brand, since Parker bought the last vestiges of Eversharp.

The strength and weakness of this list is that it is a truly collaborative process between many different people. It brings in a lot of ideas and informaition, which is good, but does need some help with consistancy and QCing, as mentioned before.

I don't mean this as a criticism of Gerry or anyone else who as worked on this - the moderation and management of the posts have been fine. It is the "open format" collaboration style that has the pluses and minuses.

John

Lex, my posting here said that there is need for a clarification as Bantam is both a Wahl-Eversharp model and a CS associated pen. In the same e-mail I gave the reference for the CS connection which is no other than Jonathans's web site: http://www.ftic.info/Donahaye/ConwayStewar...ook/cus1023.htm
Maybe you can call the CS pen 'The "Bantam" Pen' versus plain Bantam for the Wahl-Eversharp model.