I'm am planning on adding Cyrillic and Greek alphabet sets to complement a handwriting typeface I've made. I don't know where to start! I don't want to make up cursive forms that are sure to look alien to people who use these alphabets. I will be the laughingstock of the type world Anyone know any resources for learning cursive versions of these alphabets? It's not much but I'll give you a copy of the font family in return when it's finished.

See if this helps: top one is German( old style) and the last two are more on point. The pdf file at the end is German too.

I write in Russian with the third style of letters. Thanks for posting this file HardyB.

Thanks guys! These are very helpful.


Here's what I have so far. How legible is it? I hope it doesn't look too
'second grade student.' Please critique the forms. Thanks!

I have no clue what the text says. I got it from a dummy text generator.

i'm not much help but...

its pretty

The translation in correct English of the text is the following sn some words are also missing in the russian text: "Problems you only gave. From nobody, we can think there is someone. He orchestrated it himself after efforts, programming one time programs. Doing evil, he couldn't realize. Like you give a stick, in that way the people are lead."
Here is the correct text in Russian: "Приклютчения ом бас толка можна даждача. Мы можем даждача всего ом всех.Он оркестравалъ эмо сам с усилями потому чмо он програмипабалъ программы на огин раз. Вредим другум, он ни может себе присмавлят. Kак вы палку комоту даёме, так у он будет людей управлят."

Thanks! I'm glad you were able to read the sample. What is your general impression of the typeface so far? I noticed right away there are few opportunities for ascenders in cyrillic. Is this common in handwriting?

Correct, almost no ascenders. Reading Cyrillic cursive is a huge pain because every word looks like "minimum" in English. I could read it without problems (can't speak to grammar/spelling as my Russian is horrible) but the lowecase "t" looks a little lopsided. This may be a good way to avoid the problem I mentioned before, though, so you may not want to change it.

Seems like Cyrillic is what you're more concerned with, but I'll toss in what I know about Greek in case any of it's useful. I've studied Attic Greek (the language used in the Athenian city-state in the time of Socrates/Plato/Aristotle) to a significant degree, and to my knowledge, there is no provision in the alphabet for cursive. The characters stand separate from one another in all cases I've seen. I actually don't know if there's any practice of cursive writing in modern Greek.

Good luck!

Adam

Thank you, Daosus. I think I will keep that lowercase 't.'

le chat serein, I got the same impression from googling "cursive greek." It's just doesn't connect well. But I did find this specimen of Greek letters in Copperplate style:


This must look so funny to readers of Greek but I will post it anyway. This is what I came up with. The text is from a dummy text generator. I know zero Greek words

Please help. I don't really know what I'm doing. Were you able to read it well? Which forms jump out at you? (too weird, wrong form, unrecognizable etc.)

Ok, so that's pretty readable, but I'll tell you what I had trouble with.

1) Third character, second to last word, first line. I assume it's a zeta? It's pretty unrecognizable, but I just went with that. If it is a zeta, it's kind of...backwards.

2) All your lambdas dip below the line on which they appear. This is bad. Lambda should rest on the line, one exception being that the longer line may dip below it slightly. The shorter of the two, though, should be entirely above the "baseline" if I can call it that. (Don't know that "baseline" isn't the correct term, but I don't know if it is.)

3) A lot of your nus that appear within words are hard to read. You have that connecting stroke coming from the top of the nu and going to the next letter (especially where it's followed by alpha and eta. Notably not when followed with omega and tau), and it's really confusing. I had to skip it and come back to it a few times before I figured out it was a nu.

Anyway, I think I'll play around with trying to write it cursive-ly and if I come up with anything passable, I'll scan it and show you.

Adam

1. Yes it's a zeta. I think I will use the form from this image (middle character)


2. Thanks for correcting this. I wasn't sure because the font I'm using as a reference has the lambda dipping as low as the rho with the bifurcation barely hanging onto the baseline.


3. Could you be referring to the kappa? I used the last letter from this sample but I think I went too cursive-y. My nu is similar to a Latin v and doesn't have a connecting stroke in the sample above. I guess this means both letters need a makeover.


Thanks for the feedback. I look forward to your sample. It would be invaluable. I will post another sample once I've made the necessary changes.

jamesf -- the handwriting does not look Russian, so I have a hard time processing it as such. My brain keeps reading the Latin version of the letters -- for instance the Russian "r" as "p", the "t" as "m", and so forth.

The grammar and syntax in that sample are very, very wrong -- this paragraph seems to have been (mis)generated by some translation program, rather than a person.



Georges -- sorry, but that is also very incorrect. The syntax, grammar and spelling are wrong in every sentence. Where did you get this?..

Please give me advice on how to make these letters look Russian. I have no grasp on what "Russian-y" cursive looks like. Also I assumed that these letters are completely identical in form hence being "false friends" with their Latin look-alikes. I found this to be the case in most handwriting fonts that support Cyrillic (in most cases the same glyph is used!). What can I do to make them "Russian?" It would be nice if you could provide a grammatically correct sample paragraph but I'm most concerned about the usability of the typeface among Cyrillic users.

It is not the individual letters, but the overall "gestalt" look of the handwriting that doesn't seem right. Russian speakers do not write like this. I will try to locate some images on line for you of "authentic" Russian handwriting, or else write a paragraph myself and scan it at the office on Monday.



Yes. Ironically, that is part of the problem. Because the letters are identical in form, it is all the more important that the writing has a Russian "look" to it, so that people process it as such and don't keep trying to read the letters as Latin. Do you see what I mean?..



I cannot re-write that paragraph, because (1) It is just soo wrong that I am not even sure what it is supposed to say and (2) I do not have a cyrillic keyboard on my computer. If you want an authentic text sample, why don't you just use a paragraph from an online news source, such as this?

http://www.pravda.ru/news/world/former-uss...8/279648-most-0
...
В Грузии взорван мост, по которому проходит железнодорожная магистраль, соединяющая восток и запад страны. МИД Грузии возложил ответственность на российские войска, Минобороны РФ всё отицает.

"Поврежден железнодорожный мост на участке Гори-Тбилиси, который находится в 40 км от Гори. В настоящее время ведутся работы по уточнению размеров причиненного ущерба. Для доставки товарных вагонов в Армении разрабатываются альтернативные маршруты", - сказала пресс-секретарь министерства транспорта и связи Армении Сусанна Тоноян. Она также сообщила, что в результате взрыва железнодорожного моста на участке Гори-Тбилиси 72 товарных вагона не могут попасть в Армению.
...

Haha, yes, I was looking at kappa. No wonder. I should have known, though, as I have seen kappa made in that way before. As far as I know, it passes for correct, but is less common than a more "k" looking kappa.

Well, I was only going to post a sample if I could make anything like cursive in Greek (which I have attempted and cannot do), but if you'd like, I can post a sample of some of my writing in Greek just so you can have a reference to that.

Let me know.

Adam

jamesf:

Okay, on second thought --

After examining your sample handwritten text closer, most of the letters are actually okay, but the overall "crookedness" of the font -- which is intentional, I understand -- is not typical of Russian handwriting. Russian handwriting is usually more angular and even. But that in itself may be okay.

Basically, I would like to see a gramatically correct, normal paragraph written in your font, before I can comment. This sample text you wrote is just so bizarre that it is impossible to read.

Can you write this using your font?

В Грузии взорван мост, по которому проходит железнодорожная магистраль, соединяющая восток и запад страны. МИД Грузии возложил ответственность на российские войска, Минобороны РФ всё отицает.

Also, there are 2 specific letters that I suggest should be altered a bit: The Russian "t" needs to be more even on both sides, and the Russian "g" needs to be more angular on the top bend, rather than rounded as you currently have it. The other letters may be okay -- but I have to see a "normal" text to comment further!

Hope this makes sense,
QM2

Thank you in advance. Right now I only have 4 references. The two images given to me on the first page and two small images from a wikipedia article. They're helpful but cannot possibly represent real handwriting. I will take whatever specimen you can give me. I need all the help I can get.



Just to summarize and paraphrase your advice so far:
1. 't' should be symmetric
2. 'g' needs a pointier head
3. overall look should be even and angular

The third one is the most difficult because I consciously tried to avoid pointiness lest all I see is a string of Лs. As it is, I have a hard time distinguishing them from 8+ other characters!

Any handwritten sample would be much appreciated. I'm feeling a loss of ambition in developing a cursive Greek. I made a cursive majuscule set too to complement it but it must look totally ridiculous! Here's a sample of the caps.

The caps set that you're happy with is fine, I think, except that the xi doesn't need the vertical line. Three parallel lines will suffice, as long as the top and bottom are wider than the center. The omega is a form I've never seen before, and I'm not sure if it's right. I'd have to see it in context to really be able to tell if it's recognizable.

The cursive set is actually pretty readable. The capital iota is a little weird and contemporary cursive looking. The lowercase zeta is still pretty weird. The lowercase in my alphabet might be something to try and incorporate. It's cursive-y, and definitely more identifiable.

Your text sample is also pretty readable, excepting the apostrophes that you have within words. I can't remember the correct terminology for that mark, but (at least in Attic Greek) it's only used at the beginning of a word to mark whether the vowel is aspirated or not. In the text I copied from Plato, for instance, the first word would be pronounced "a-por-EE-a" (because the accent is over the iota), but the word after Prometheus is "HANE-tin-a". The "apostrophe" faces out when the vowel is not aspirated and in when it is.

Hope this is helpful.

Adam

Adam, thank you so much for taking the time to make a sample. Your handwriting is graceful! I have altered about 8 characters after studying your specimen. How does this look?

Oh that is much, much better! Pretty cool font : )

Now that I can actually read the text (with a few minor spelling errors, in case that is useful to mention), I can isolate the relevant comments.

The caps are pretty much good to go as they are. The only possible change I'd consider, is making the little "tails" on the "tse" and the "schya" longer (meaning extend them a tiny bit more downward).

As for the script, see below:



The overall look does not need to be changed; it is legible as a Russian font once a normal text is used.

The small "t" would benefit from being more symmetrical than it currently is, but does not need to be 100% so. Just a bit more would suffice.

The small "g" does need to be sharpened on top, I can confirm this now. Currently it reads too much like "ch".

Let me know if something is not clear and I hope this helps

one more suggestion:


In the script, the lower case Russian "v" -- make the top part more like a loop and less like a line. Yes, that will make it perfect.

::nods:: The greek is much improved. Perfectly legible, and, IMO, better looking that mine. Well done!

Adam

That's good to hear! Thank you for all your help. I'm learning so much from this project

QM2
It's such a relief to hear that you are able to see it as Russian text. For a moment there I thought I would have to start from scratch(!). I've nudged the small t's hump, straigthened g's top and made the downstroke curvier (I'm not sure about the lead-in stroke though). The small 'v' is now has a loop instead of a straight ascender. Here's the sample. I'm under the impression that pangrams use uncommon words to squeeze every letter in but I hope these sentences aren't problematic.


I'm looking forward to your opinion.

Hi there,

. Russian lowercase "t": I think this is fine now!

. Russian lowercase "v": You made the loop too wide now : ) Somewhere in between what was there before and this would be good -- a long and narrow loop

. Russian lowercase "g": this letter should not have a hump of any kind to the left of the "peak". Yours has a sort of secondary left hump thing going, do you see what I mean? (Sorry, I do not know the technical terms for all these things!) Basically, you should be able to make the "g" with 2 strokes from the starting point, not 3 as you currently have it.

the left version is perfect; that is exactly what it should look like!

Thank you for your help!

jamesf, it's a pleasant surprise to see someone interested in cyrillic alphabet.
The one above /the first two rows/ is not russian for sure. It looks like serbian, or belorussian... There are several variations of the cyrillic alphabet - bulgarian, russian, serbian, etc. They are almost the same except some of the letters that are present in one of the alphabets, but are missing from the others.
Anyway, here is a sample of the russian version of the cyrillic alphabet, taken from an ABC-book /not sure about the correct translation of букварь in english/:

Click to view attachment

I can send you a pdf copy of the book, if you need it. Just send me your e-mail address in a PM.

Regards,
Dimiter

Russian is my mother tongue since I am kid since three years old. I am a fluent russian speaker. You should know that in the Russian language, there is what is called indirect language, the beginners do not necessarily know it. How many years do you learn or speak russian? Do you write commercial and/or technical letters or documentation? I do. The fact is that you used a translator, I didn't and most of the sentences in the translator didn't make sense and they have to be corrected and put in an indirect form.

Here is a passage in correct Russian:
"Часто возникает путаница, в чем же все-таки разница между автоматом и штурмовой винтовкой. А вся разница - в языках. Просто то, что в русском языке принято называть "Автоматом" (применительно к оружию) в английском языке называют "Assault rifle", т.е. "Штурмовая винтовка". В дальнейшем я буду пользоваться более привычным отечественным термином "Автомат", введенным в 20е годы ХХ века российским оружейником Фроловым для обозначения "карабинов-пулеметов" системы Федорова.

Автомат - основное наступательное оружие современной пехоты. Современные автоматы обычно имеют калибр от 5,45 до 7,62мм, емкость магазинов от 20 до 30 и более патронов, режимы огня полностью автоматический (очередями) и одиночными выстрелами6 а некоторые модели - еще и с отсечкой (т.е. очередями по 2 или 3 выстрела). Эффективная дальность стрельбы в среднем до 600 м, эффективная практическая скорострельность - до 400 выстр/мин очередями. Многие автоматы (в том числе и показанные здесь) являются "прародителями" или составными частями целых семейств автоматического оружия (от коротких "карабинов" до ручных пулкеметов - хороший тому пример австрийский AUG или семейство АК/РПК). Почти все автоматы могут оснащаться штыком, ночным, оптическим или коллиматорным прицелом, а некоторые - еще и подствольным 30-40мм гранатометом или насадкой для метания ружейных гранат (ружейные гранаты одеваются на ствол и выстреливаются холостым патроном).

Современные тенденции для автоматов - широкое использование композитных пластиков и легких сплавов, установка встроенных оптических или коллиматорных прицелов с кратностью от 1х до 4-6х, переход к схеме "Булл-пап" (механика в прикладе).

Согласно принятой в СССР/России классификации, штурмовые винтовки можно считать вторым поколением автоматических винтовок, то есть индивидуального автоматического (предназначенного для стрельбы очередями) оружия. Разганичение между поколениями проводится по используемому в данном оружии патрону. Если оружие использует мощный патрон "винтовочного" типа (например, 7,62мм НАТО, 7,5мм Швейцарский), его относят к первому поколению. Классические примеры автоматических винтовок первого поколения - американские М-14 и AR-10, бельгийская FN FAL, немецкая G3. Если оружие использует так называемые "промежуточные" патроны (7,62х39, 5,45х39, 5,56мм НАТО (5,56х45)), такое оружие относят ко второму поколению и называют собственно "автомат" либо "штурмовая винтовка". Основными приеимуществами оружия под промежуточный патрон стали: меньший вес носимого боезапаса, меньшая энергия отдачи оружия (и как следствие - уменьшение массы оружия и облегчение управления автоматическим огнем).

Первый автомат был создан в России во время первой мировой войны. Следющий шаг сделали немцы, создав к 1944 году настоящий автомат StG44 под собственный промежуточный патрон 7,92х33мм, однако первым по настоящему массовым (и одним из самых известных в мире) стал советский автомат Калашникова АК (на западе называемый АК-47). Следующий шаг сделали в США, приняв на вооружение в 1963 году винтовку М-16 под специально созданный малокалиберный и малоимпульсный патрон .223 Remington или M193 5,56х45мм (создан фирмой Sierra Bullets на базе охотничьего патрона .222 Remington). В 80х годах модификация данного патрона, разработанная в Бельгии под обозначением SS109 (с более тяжелой пулей) была принята как стандартный боеприпас 5,56мм НАТО. Вслед за США и в СССР принимается на вооружение малоимпульсный патрон М73 5,45х39мм и система оружия под него АК-74 и РПК-74.

Надо сказать, что споры о том, стоило ли принимать на вооружение в СССР малокалиберный патрон (а делалось это явно "вослед" "потенциальным противникам") не утихают и поныне. Наиболее широко распространенный патрон калибра 5,45мм 5Н7 имеет малоустойчивую пулю с небольшими останавливающим действием и проникающей способностью, а улучшенные патроны 5Н10 со стальным твердосплавным сердечником, судя по всему, массово в войска не поступали. Неудивительно, что в локальных конфликтах часто используются старые добрые АКМ и РПК под проверенный временем и достаточно эффективный патрон 7,62мм (7,62х39). Для подтверждения этого достаточно посмотреть репортажи о боевых действиях в Чечне. Да и сам М.Т.Калашников говорил, что к моменту принятия на вооружение 5,45мм комплекса (патрон/автомат/ручной пулемет) потенциал патрона 7,62х39 еще не был полностью раскрыт. Кроме того, как мне кажется, в условиях боя в населенных пунктах, когда дистанции боя невелики и на первое место выходит запреградное, убойное и останавливающее действие пули (масса носимого боезапаса становится не столь критична, ибо свои тылы рядом), лучше всего могли бы проявить себя патроны 9мм (9х39мм СП-6, ПАБ-9). Они способны поражать цели в бронежилетах и за легкими укрытиями на дистанции городского боя (100-400м) и имеют высокое останавливающее действие (важно при столкновениях на малых дистанциях - в развалинах, при проведении "зачисток" населенных пунктов). Думаю, что комплексы вроде "Грозы" под 9мм боеприпасы смогли бы продемонстрировать свою эффективность."

As I sit here in the middle of the night doing my Greek homework, this thread happened to pop up.

Your Greek sample looks lovely!

I do not know if you are looking to provide a font usable for Ancient Greek, but you seem to be lacking circumflex and grave accents and breathing marks.

An open source font worth taking a look at is Gentium. http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.ph...item_id=Gentium

He-he... Yeah, I write cyrillic every day.
Excuse me, your examples are so funny.

ah... politics. <_<

П.с.
Неожиданно!