When I first started exchanging snail mail with FPNers, I noticed that nobody used forms of address (Mr., Miss, Mrs, or Ms.) on envelopes so I've followed this practice.

But I've wondered - is this just something we FPNers are doing in our Fellowship of the Nib or has the world in general dispensed with these forms of address?

I'm not trying to make an issue of this one way or another. Things do change over time. But I've noticed that most of my non-FPN pen pals use "Mrs." (or sometimes "Ms.") when addressing letters to me. Of course, they are as old or older than I am so maybe it's habit.

At any rate, those of you who address my envelopes to "Judy Landry" without the Mrs. or Ms., don't change anything! I'm just curious about what is common practice these days. When you're retired you lead a sheltered life.

Judybug

Common courtesy for letter-writing still calls for use of titles, IMHO.

So many people use shorthand for emailing and text messaging. My gut reaction when seeing text messaging shorthand in a post is to discount the message. Usually the content of such messages does not add to a discussion either.

My training in letter-writing tells me not to dispense with titles on envelopes. It is a clue that you value the person you are writing to. But then, I am old-fashioned.

Since most email posts show the first line or so of the post as a title, dispensing with titles seems appropriate. That very careful first line becomes an introduction to the post and, on a board like this one, gives the scanning reader a chance to decide whether or not to look more closely at the post. Again, courtesy for others and a differing set of circumstances. Else I would use titles and addresses on email posts as well. Judy, I agree with you. Being retired gives one a sheltered life. And, hopefully, time for reflection and thought for the world around us.

Enjoy,
Randal

I think that this is less about the fading of letter-writing conventions, than about the rise of political correctness. Specifically, many contemporary females consider "Mrs." an extremely offesnive title. Today, in most academic and many corporate environments, females without a doctorate are always refered to as "Ms." if a title must be used, never as "Mrs." or "Miss". And if you address anybody with a Doctorate as anything but "Dr.", even unknowingly, that is a good way to make an enemy for life, particularly with women. I have seen a professor coleague turn white with rage and clench her fists at her sides, when a student innocently called her "Mrs. Xxxx". (Of course she did have a point, as I have never seen students make this mistake with male professors, only female.)

Because in many cases we do not know what title a person prefers to use, whether they are offended by "Mrs." or not, whether they have a Doctorate or not, etc., it is perceived as safer and least offensive to just use the full name without a title.

And this is not just done in addresses, but also in forms of greeting. For instance, if I do not know whether Mary Jones has a doctorate or not, I write "Dear Mary Jones," as opposed to "Dear Ms./Mrs./Dr." Jones"...

Judy,

I fear you have hit upon a trend, rather than a fad. You said you are "old fashioned" (me, too). We are products of what we were taught, what we learned and ultimately practiced (with an emphasis on practiced). Email, text messages, board postings are part of our "practice" today; much more so than traditional mail. Hence, we tend to slip. The next generation or two (a lot less old fashioned) hardly has any practice with writing, particularly letters.

In my profession I work with senior managers, CEO's and owners of companies. One of the small things I encourage them to try is personal notes and letters (yes, hand written, with a fountain pen, on quality paper!). Most of them report utter amazement at the positive responses they get from these simple gestures! I smile and congratulate them.

To the point of your post, things do change (for all the political hype around "change" these days, without specifics, it is sorely underrated), but when everyone else is "texting" -- write. When everyone else is omitting titles -- use them. The handwritten letter, properly done, coveys respect and honor to the receiver. Compete the honor with an appropriate title on the envelope. I sometimes ask clients how many emails they get per day. The numbers are scary. The next question is how they feel about each of those emails. Ditto scary. Next question: how many handwritten notes/letters do you get per day/week/month/year? Answer: really small numbers. Finally, how do you feel about those notes/letters? Answer: Wow!!!

Sometimes being "old fashioned" is the most modern thing you can do.

Yes, I think this is definitely one of the reasons I am sometimes reluctant to put any form of address.

Here's another uniquely female problem ------ I was taught (many moons ago) that, as long as a woman's husband is living (and they are still married, of course), she should be addressed by her husband's name. For example, if she is Sally Doe, married to John Doe, she should be addressed as Mrs. John Doe. If John dies, then she is addressed as Mrs. Sally Doe. So for folks my age and older, seeing "Mrs." in front of a woman's first name told you she was a widow.

Although I don't consider myself a feminist, I wouldn't like always being addressed by my husband's name - although he's still living and we are happily married. After all, I'm a person, not just an attachment to my husband. Also, being addressed by my husband's name really doesn't make much sense when I corresponding with people who don't know my husband.

But "Mrs. Judy Landry" is problematic because it may give older people the impression that I'm a widow - or at least make them wonder if I'm a widow.

The only other alternative is "Ms. Judy Landry" which - I think - smacks of political correctness when it's applied to a married woman. I'm afraid it would give people the impression that I don't want anyone to know I'm married.

So - when all is said and done - I suppose "Judy Landry" is best.

I'm curious though - how about you younger people - if you saw "Mrs. Judy Landry" would you assume I was a widow? Are the words "widow" (a woman whose husband has died and she has not remarried) and "widower" (a man whose wife has died and he has not remarried) even used anymore?

Judybug (still living in the last century)

Judy,
Hello. I am originally from Baton Rouge. In the modern world with so many women living alone like my daughter I tend to not point out any obvious sex with the address. When I write to my daughter whose name is Particia I simply use first initial. P. Don't know if this is done frequently or not.
By the way,my real name is Patrick Barnes. BillZ is my alter ego.

Hi, Patrick - I had the same concern about my three grown daughters, all of whom lived alone at some point in their lives. Because of this concern, I never used "Miss" when addressing them. It didn't occur to me to replace their first name with their initial.

By the way, I have two categories of people I write to - the non-fountain pen people and the fountain pen people. The non-fountain pen people, I refer to with the usual term - pen pals (for them, any pen will do). I've come to think of my fountain pen people as "nib fellows."

Judybug

I suspect I am one of the older members, raised in England, but I confess to never having heard the convention regarding "Mrs Mary Jones" indicating widowhood (or even 'viduity' ). Maybe it was, by then....post-WWII... more of an American custom?

It may be because my mother, although having been brought-up very 'correctly', was a bit of a feminist (born in 1900!!), and objected ....not very vociferously... to being referred-to as 'Mrs Arthur H Blowers'.
I think she felt, as my late wife did, that it implied she was, to some extent a 'possession' or 'chattel' of her husband

So, when I wrote home from abroad, it was to 'Mrs D M K Blowers'.
As a result, I am uncomfortable about using a married woman's husband's forename or initials.
It is certainly not intended to be disrespectful...quite the contrary, I am respecting their 'individuality'!

In the case of my FPN correspondents the reason I use 'Judy Landry' is a mix of those given above....leaving-off a title means I am less likely to give offence than if I use 'the wrong one'!
In most cases, I don't know if the recipients have doctorates or any other titles, or how they prefer to be addressed, so I play it safe(-ish!).

I have wondered about indicating gender by use of the forename, but using initials only would have been a problem in our home .... for example, my late wife and I were, to most people, both "R Blowers" .... we respected one another's right not to have his/her mail opened by the other, although it did happen occasionally!

If anyone I write-to prefers to be addressed differently, please let me know

I find it an interesting point... in business I still get letters addressed with a "Mr." prefix. With personal letters, never. There has definitely been a shift out of formality going on in the general public.

What I do find a bit controversial is small children addressing adults by their first name, rather than "Mr." or "Ms." so-and-so. From my observations, I get the feeling that respect for older folks has withered away. In general, many kids do not show respect for adults like they did just a generation ago.

My 4 yo grandson calls me 'Rodge'
My late wife, Bobbie, said she wasn't ready to be a 'Granny' so she was referred to as 'Bobs'.
He has a GrandDad and GrandMa on his father's side...they like it, I think, so there are no problems and no confusion about 'Who's Who?' .
(They are quite a bit younger, too, and it's even more complicated by the fact that my SiL's parents are divorced and one remarried, so he has, to all appearances an 'extra' grandfather!

What he calls us has no effect whatsoever, IMO, with whether we earn and retain his respect!
(His younger sister is still too young to call me anything intelligible!!)

Unfortunately many 'older folks' don't, IMO, do much to earn the respect of 'younger folk'....I don't think it's 'right' of those of us who are 'older folk' to expect respect.
For one thing, you need to give it if you wish to get it!

In Louisiana, a delightful custom persists. Children generally refer to adults with whom they are well-acquainted by the adult's first name, preceded by Mr. or Miss (Miss is used even if the lady is married.) So I was always "Miss Judy," not "Mrs. Landry," to my piano students. The disconcerting part of this custom is that when you reach "a certain mature age," (I'm not sure what the age is exactly), grown adults who are considerably younger than you are, use this form of address. So - these days - when I go to the bank, the post office, the beauty shop - I'm called "Miss Judy" - by the adults who are in their 40s! I'd feel younger if they would just call me "Judy," but I know that they would feel disrespectful doing so. I try to appreciate the respect even if it does make me feel - well - old.

Judybug

Age is just a number, Judy, but the value of true respect is, IMO, incalculable

The way I was taught this, is that technically speaking it is simply incorrect (though frequently done) to say "Mrs. Mary Jones", whether your husband is living or not -- the correct way always being "Mrs. Robert Jones". The reason for this, is that the title Mrs. means, literally, Mister's -- belonging to the Mr. So "Mrs. Mary Jones" makes no sense, but "Mrs. Robert Jones does".

I have no problem with writing Ms for women, though I have started to use M/s as well. Unconventional, perhaps, but it makes clear how much I hate the ridiculous attempt to pronounce Ms as mzzzz. No other abbreviated title is pronounced (Miss is not abbreviated, unless perhaps to Ms): no one says merrr for mister, durrr for doctor or revvv for reverend, so why is there no expressible pronunciation for Ms?

Actually, there is, but the term mistress has other connotations today that it did not have in the past and seems to raise eyebrown when I have used it!

So, find a pronunciation for Ms that can be used, please.

But, to the original point, even for friends, I always address the envelope to Mr. Mrs. Miss Dr. Rev. Prof. etc. though the letter may begin "Yo! Bertie!! Wassup, me ole bean?" or some other familiar opening

Chris

I think working in academia has gotten rid of my use of titles (there is great nuance to Professor versus Assistant Professor versus Associate Professor, and what do you call a Lecturer, what is that foreign degree equivalent to, and is s/he a Ph.D. or just ABD? ) - most people I work with just go on a first name basis rather than running the risk of some offense.

I remember as an undergrad, an older German professor insisted being addressed with her title, so I insisted on reciprocity (I prefer "Miss.") Even in that situation it seem stilted and out of place (especially since ALL of the other faculty used first names.)

In my writing, I default to not using titles except in formal address, such as invitations, formal business correspondence, etc. Snail Mail exchanges are informal to me. One of my correspondents used to address my letters to "Dear Ms. ..." but eventually stopped since I didn't reply in kind. It felt awkward and overly formal to read. It also felt rude to me NOT to reply in kind, but that wasn't the nature of or correspondence.

I think the proliferation of junk mail/spam has really ruined the formal for me. When I see Dear Ms. (or Mr., since they never can seem to figure out my gender) I immediately think: what does this person want from me/what are they trying to sell me.

I refuse to bend to the political correct nonsense beyond the use of "Ms." That's where I have drawn the line. I will ask someone their preferred title and use what they tell me. This has ranged from "Doctor" to "Madam" to "Chief Engineer."

I'm not going to drop "Mrs." or "Miss" for silly PC reasons. What a ridiculous bit of nonsense perpetuated by people so insecure to think they're being treated badly when in fact they're so ignorant of common courtesy.

And I miss the endings to letters like, "I remain very truly yours," and "sincerely." I know a lawyer who scrawls these out John Hancock style and it reminds me that he's paying attention.

44

Not to open a keg of worms where gender is concerned, I've never looked at "Mrs." as meaning "belonging to Mister." Traditionally, men - not women - have pursued the opposite sex. By making it clear that a woman was married by the use of "Mrs.", she was relieved of unwanted advances - at least that's the way it was supposed to work. "Mrs." did not - in my way of thinking - mean that she was the property of her husband. It simply meant that she was committed to her husband and was not interested in any other offers. When John Doe's widow was called "Mrs. Sally Doe" instead of "Mrs. John Doe," it was simply to communicate her widowhood - and perhaps to say that, after a reasonable amount of time, she would be interested in other offers. Let me add that I've lived in the southern U. S. all my life. For all I know, this was a uniquely southern way of doing things. Nor do I mean to give the impression that this practice is still rigidly in place. Time marches on - even in the South.

Judybug

[
Hi, Patrick - I had the same concern about my three grown daughters, all of whom lived alone at some point in their lives. Because of this concern, I never used "Miss" when addressing them. It didn't occur to me to replace their first name with their initial.
I read it or heard about the practice somewhere. It makes sense. Not that many guys named Hermione or Gertrude.LOL

By the way, I have two categories of people I write to - the non-fountain pen people and the fountain pen people. The non-fountain pen people, I refer to with the usual term - pen pals (for them, any pen will do). I've come to think of my fountain pen people as "nib fellows."

When I started sending "snailers" to people I never expected any written replies. But My older bro(he's 70 and I am63)started writing. I also got other replies. Maybe we can resurrect the practice!

I generally don't use titles unless I know for certain that I
am using the proper one and in the case of women that is problematic
if one is a casual acquaintance. (yes, I was taught the whole man's name
if alive, woman's if widowed thing.)

Easier for me to omit one and be thought a heathen than
to misuse one and be known to be one.

Aside from that, (and this is not meant to be disrespectful)
I think of you as my friends so yes, I will adopt a less
formal mode than if I was conducting a business correspondence.



Judy, I have those that knew me as children still refer
to me as Miss Connie and since they are in their 20's now
it does make me feel o l d.

I've always been a Ms., by the way, pronounced Mz.

Hear, hear. You hit that nail right on the head, Aslan

Thanks,
Randal

What, not "Miz Judy"? In North Carolina and Virginia, that "Miss" usually gets corrupted to "Miz", for some unknown reason.

Interesting post as I too worked in academics and first names were the most common. Few asked to be addressed by anything else, and with Ph.Ds, M.Ds. etc. it gets more confusing than helpful. Who is the real doctor?

Among intimates (family members and close friends) I've taken to omitting any form of titles. With professional correspondence, or with letter writing to those accustomed to and desirous of formality, I comply. My MIL would have dismissed a letter that didn't address her correctly.

And the Ms. vs Mrs. is one I struggled with when it applied to me. I didn't appreciate being the Mrs. of Mr. X.

In my own correspondence (and I guess I'm one of the younger generation, even though I think of myself as old-fashioned), I address letters with titles, but only if I know the title I'm using to be correct. I write letters to my little cousin, for instance (she's 12) and on her envelopes I write "Miss Jo Kelly", but that's mostly to teach her the correct way of doing it.

I never use titles in my salutation, though. I don't often (never, really) write real snail mail to people I need to be formal with, so I write "Dear Jo," or whatever.

As far as farewells go, though, I find it to be a diverting sort of project to add something like, "Your with affection" or the like. Always something that applies, though, of course.

I definitely think that there's a significant deterioration of things done "properly" in recent days, though, and snail mail etiquette is just one more item on a long list.

Cheers,

Adam

There are too many pitfalls with a formal address as well is it not true that a person you are writing with might expect that the formal naming is not required? I do not expect my friends to call me Sir or Mister why should I expect the letter to be addressed as such?

Requiring people to address you as Mrs. is going to put a formal layer upon future correspondence that might just trail away.

In Sweden it´s not common practice nowadays to address a person as Mr. Mrs. or Ms. (Herr, Fru, Fröken). But still I´m adressed as Doctor Wennberg.

Well my observation is this:
For eight years I worked as a medical doctor at a high security detention centre for heavy criminals in Southern Stockholm. I don´t know why, but I started to address the inmates, and talk about them, as Mr. X and Mr. Y etc. This had a susrprisingly huge impact in a positive direction:
1. The inmates, never before being addressed in this way, smiled, (often toothless smiles), and became happy over being treated with such respect and dignity.
2. Among the staff the language rose to a somewhat higher level when discussing the inmates.
(3. At least in Swedish, you can use Mr. and Mrs. in a sarcastic and ironic way. "Mr. Z seems to be a bit angry today." "I´m afraid Mr. P, I cannot at present meet your request." etc.)

Well that was just my observations on the subject.

Lennart

Huh, interesting. At my university, we typically addressed our professors by first name. Maybe that was peculiar to my department.

I agree - I can't imagine personal correspondence with someone that is so formal I feel compelled to address them with a title in the letter itself - even if I put a title on the envelope. Those of us who are older often say things used to be better - and it's true that a lot of things used to be better, but I think some things are better now - and one of those things is the more frequent use of first names. When I was a child in northern Florida in the 1950s, adults never addressed each other by first names unless they were family or very good friends. I still remember some of our neighbors that we were only slightly acquainted with as Mr. or Mrs. so-and-so. I don't think I ever heard their first names. That's a bit too formal, in my opinion.

I do like thoughtful farewells, though.

And I think it's a good idea to teach children correct forms of address --------- and now here's another puzzle ------- I use "Miss" when writing to my little granddaughter just as you do, Adam, when writing to your cousin. But what form of address do I use for my grandson? The old-fashioned way was to address a little boy as "Master John Doe." In today's world, that just seems utterly laughable. But to address a little boy as "Mr. John Doe" seems equally pretentious. Someone has suggested "Young John Doe" to me. It makes more sense, but I don't know if it's acceptable. That's the problem today -- who knows what's acceptable? What's acceptable to one person may be an insult to another. (Sigh) The world was simpler when there were rules about these things and everybody knew them.

Anyway ----- if you use a form of address for a little boy, what would it be. Any ideas?

Judybug

I generally don't use titles. Why not? Because it's confusing! If I know someone would like to be addressed in a certain way, I'll do it that way.

A hui hou (until we meet again),

Doug

There are rules still, you just need to choose which set you like. As a first approximation you can either:

a.) accept the current popular culture method and drop titles altogether for 99+% of your life. Adults today use titles rarely and you will probably only ever use them with professionals like military officers, judges and doctors.

b.) adopt the more traditional system set up at the height of Victoriana. The system is perpetuated in numerous etiquette books and is readily available from a variety of authors. The problem is, as some here have pointed out, that the system is traditional. It is set up with a bias towards being a wealthy land owning European man. Women are relegated to more a chattel role and end up with constructs like "Mrs. Steven Mallory". This system also seems somewhat clumsy to many, because it is only used with any frequency today for special occasions like weddings.

The awkwardness comes from trying to modernize the traditional system, while ignoring modern convention.

Yes, titles can confuse things. This is an interesting discussion, but I hope I haven't given anyone the impression that I take all this title business too seriously. I don't want any of my dear nib fellows to stop writing to me because they're worried about titles. I'm perfectly happy being addressed as "Judy Landry." It's to the point. It's not confusing. It's simple. Long live simplicity!

Judybug

As confusing as titles of address are on paper, I find the ones spoken even worse. I suppose it is because I use the written form so infrequently, and because my professional situation complicates things orally. I work in a secondary school, so there is a mix of faculty with BA/BS, MA/MS/MEd, EdS, PhD/EdD. Now, that probably isn't unique, as I'm sure nearly every business works out this way as well. But, many schools have a clause in their codes of conduct requiring students to use a title and NOT a given name (Mr/Ms/Mrs/Dr). That's fine; I don't care one way or the other, but what do we call each other within earshot of the students? I have to feel out which faculty want to go by Dr, which want to go by gendered titles, and which want to use first names (or, which want to be called Coach, which I suspect is unique to schools, since that same coach would be Mr/Ms/Dr in any other job). Then, to make things even more complicated, some of them want a title ONLY when students are around or only during school hours. So I might ask Mrs Smith if we still have a departmental meeting after school, she says she will check her calendar, the bell rings, she confirms, and now I'm supposed to say, "Thank you, Jennifer" so that it doesn't come off as too formal. When I type all of this it looks a bit extreme, but it seems normal in day-to-day life.

Which, I suppose, is an overly lengthy way of saying that I would REALLY rather avoid titles altogether, so when I can (e.g. letters) I do.

Nib fellows?I like it!

John

[/quote]

Nib fellows?I like it!

John
[/quote]

A clarification -- when I say "nib fellows," I'm referring to both guys and gals. I hope there are no gals out there who are offended by the title "fellow." After all, I'm a gal and I don't mind - but maybe some gals won't like it. Wow! Titles are just fraught with danger!
Judybug

When speaking, I was always expected to address any adult over the age of majority by their title (professional, electoral, military, liturgical, or social) and last name (Mr., Miss, Mrs., Ms., Dr., Rev., Sen., Gen.) - unless we had been introduced socially and socialized outside of a structured setting. And I was never to address someone of greater age or higher social rank by their first name unless I had been similarly addressed by them first.

Juniors under the age of majority were to be addressed as Master or Miss plus their first name, rather than their last name - as in Master Timothy or Miss Lucy.

When addressing envelopes for social correspondence, the use of titles was similar, though not precisely the same. Most elected government officials are addressed in writing as "The Honorable X Y Z." Some clerics are addressed in writing as "The Reverend X Y Z" or "The Most Reverend X Y Z". Interestingly, medical doctors are always addressed socially as "Dr. X Y Z" rather than "X Y Z, MD". Similarly, PhDs are addressed in social writing as "Dr. X Y Z" rather than "X Y Z, PhD". Interestingly, military commissioned officers of the rank of Lieutenant and below are correctly addressed orally as Mr. but in writing are addressed as Lieutenant X Y Z. Officers above the rank of Lieutenant are addressed by their rank orally and in writing.

By the way, with social correspondence, the return address goes on the envelope flap rather than on the front upper left hand corner.

Higher ranking clerics and lower ranking royalty are very idiosyncratic in proper oral and written address, and require a little research.

Aboard private boats, traditional etiquette is derived from US and British Naval customs. My boat was once the home of Admiral George Whelan Anderson, Chief of Naval Operations under President Kennedy, and so my crew and I try to follow naval mid-century etiquette. When done smoothly and correctly it is elegant, respectful, and welcoming. Aboard private yachts, there are even special bugle calls and songs to be played when certain guests board. One of my best friends from high school is entitled to nineteen firings of the yacht's canon, plus four Ruffles and Flourishes, plus the playing of the National Anthem when he boards.

These little social graces are not often observed these days. But I was born and raised in the South, and the manners thing was (and is) a big deal here.

A good text on very traditional etiquette is the book Service Etiquette by Orthea D. Swartz.

Judy, I have long wondered about this very issue. You are so right. No one seems to use anything but my name when addressing envelopes to me so I do likewise. I assumed it was part of the snailing etiquette!

::sigh:: This makes me wish I were from the South. People in the North seem to be less concerned with the downfall of modern civilization.

Nib fellows?I like it!

John


A clarification -- when I say "nib fellows," I'm referring to both guys and gals. I hope there are no gals out there who are offended by the title "fellow." After all, I'm a gal and I don't mind - but maybe some gals won't like it. Wow! Titles are just fraught with danger!
Judybug


I suppose you could say"nib fellow-ettes",but that trips over the tongue fallingly(vague attempt at ancient Shakespearean
humor?--)...........

John

Most of my snail mail correspondence is computer-generated mass marketing from giant corporations who don't care whether I'm Mr, Mrs, Doctor, Chairman, or Dear Leader, as long as I send them some cash.

Some of them are just addressed to: CURRENT RESIDENT.

I'm just surprised some places even bother digging my name out of their databases rather than just blanketing the neighborhood based on postal codes. I'm sure the no-name=no-delivery rule at the post office has already become a detriment to potential profits and will soon disappear.

We might as well address everything to "Hey, sucker" from now on.

Sincerely,

CURRENT RESIDENT SUCKER

And all along I thought you preferred "Yo, girlie." That's what we used on the playground.

Hmm.... I have only recently started writing snail mail letters and have not thought much about how to address people in informal letters.

So far I have been using just first names with the idea that the letter is simply friendly correspondence. Now that I think about it I think I shall ask how people prefer to be referred to next time I write to them.

Thank you Judybug for making me think about this!

Shaun.

This thread has just reminded me of a presentation by Steven Pinker I caught at TED.com (Actually it was a video podcast download from iTunes, but you can stream it directly from TED.com.). He points out that language emerges from human minds interacting with one another, and that there are relationship types that govern human interaction. If, as he says and as I suspect is true, language is a way of negotiating relationships, the form of address is one important way of expressing the relationship that the writer wishes to establish between himself and the addressee. A letter to the emperor of one's country would require a rather elaborate form of address (and be signed off by an equally elaborate declaration of humility as in "your most humble and unworthy" etc.).

And although language keeps changing and evolving, it is also subject to a certain amount of "legislation." These would be the "rules." The rules are useful in clearly communicating the relationship that we are trying to establish. But I think the history of America is one where all people are becoming equal, and forms of address that establish an unequal relationship are used less and less. Most of us would want to be on equal footing with others and would want others to feel the same way.

So I guess to boil down all this into a contemporary rule, I would put it this way: There is no need to use a form of address absent a compelling reason to establish a particular unequal relationship with the addressee. This would apply to emperors and sweethearts alike, no?

Okay, my 2 cents ran out a couple of paragraphs ago...

I remain your most humble etcetera,

Doug

P.S. Thanks Judy, for bringing this up. I had fun thinking about it.

I think your teacher must have been misinformed, QM2 (or should that be mrsinformed? was she married or widowed? But I digress). Mrs. is short for misteress, which is nothing more than the feminine form of mister, both coming from the Latin magister, and meaning (in this context) the head of a household. So, mrs Sally Doe would make perfect sense if Sally Doe was the head of a household, and particularly if she was the sole head of a household, e.g. as a widow.

Edited for reasons of vanity.

Having spent some time in the services, I became used to being called, and calling others, "Sir" (it was all-male in those days).
Even now, if I hold a door open for someone (remember that?), I sometimes say "After you, Sir" (or "After you, Madam"), without feeling I am being unduly deferential.
I think most people appreciate the courtesy, even if they don't expect it.

I don't much care how I am addressed..... although I did bristle slightly at being called "Mate" by a shop assistant of half my age!
But it is the tone of what follows which counts for more...it just needs to be appropriate to the situation.

Another point is that when speaking to 'high-ranking dignitaries' (who are not personal friends or acquaintances) I believe one should show respect for their position. Whatever I might think of The Queen, or the US President, on a personal basis, I think it is right to address them as Your Majesty>Ma'am and Mr President>Sir .
(Those are extreme examples, I realise!... but it irritates me slightly to hear people speaking of their Prime Minister by surname only.....however much they may dislike his or her political stance )

Call me what you like..just don't call me late for dinner

If I recieve a letter at all from a person I do not care whether the address is on the letter front or behind! Should I be refusing a letter that is addressed wrong?

Telling people where things needs to be is just rudeness under the guise of good maners, it gives people a reason to look down on others with uperclass snob eyes.

I don't think 'yachtsilverswan' meant to be rude at all. He's simply telling us about a rule. Maybe you haven't had time to read this entire thread, but the whole thing has been about rules of correspondence and how we are free to either abide by them or ignore them. It appears that most of us (myself included) ignore a lot of these rules. But I still find it interesting to know what the rules are. I've often wondered if putting the return address on the flap is still done - it used to be done more than it is now. Anyway, I'm glad 'yachtsilverswan' told us about this distinction.

Tangelfoot - I do understand what you mean about snobbery. It is possible to be so rigid about rules that you consider yourself superior to anyone who doesn't follow them to the letter. Thank goodness, I haven't noticed that kind of rigidity with any FPNers that I correspond with.

Judybug

Edited for the usual reason - I can't spell!

I write a lot of personal letters in my line of business, and I've dropped titles on the envelopes to avoid violating the sensitivity of some to the wrong title (e.g., Mrs. or Ms.). The issue must still be dealt with in the salutation, but at least it's confidential on the inside of the envelope. After 30 years, one learns.

Fred

If I assumed a formal rule applied, I'd think that the use of the woman's first name after "Mrs." indicated that she was divorced rather than widowed.

Since most situations aren't really very formal, I try to use what the person herself prefers, and don't draw too many conclusions from titles.

Hey Tangelfoot -

My intent was to show the arcane nature of some of the etiquette rules I was taught as a boy growing up in the rather ritualized South. Sounds like I did a rather poor job of communicating my point.

Like you, I'm always happy to hear from friends and family, no matter what the envelope says.

The original purpose behind a different address location for social correspondence and for business correspondence was that the household mail was often separated into two piles - one for the bills, accounts, and other business of the house - one for invitations and cherished notes from friends. The two piles were separated based on where the return address was located - which was supposed to signal the nature of the letter. Guess which pile was usually opened first.

My Great-Aunt (the manners police in my family) always stressed that the most important principle of manners and etiquette was to never use manners and etiquette as a club or a weapon to embarrass or belittle others. Manners and etiquette are supposed to serve as a social lubricant to pave the way for genuine interaction between people who may not know each other well by setting a structure for that interaction to start and progress.

There is a famous story about HM Queen Victoria and one of her lavishly opulent State Dinners. One of the Queen's guests, unfamiliar with the fingerbowl at his placesetting, picked up the bowl and drank from it. Ignoring a sudden hush around her table, The Queen promptly picked up her own fingerbowl and drank from it as well to make sure her guest was not discomforted. The guest was much more important to The Queen than was the rule. Her Majesty sounds like a wise role model for her people.

If you nest near Atlanta, let me buy you a drink and make amends.

Handsome pup in your avatar.

What a great story--thanks for sharing, 'swan.

Yes I too spoke my thoughts unclearly as I was trying to say as well that rules should be thought of rather than being blind followed and people who use ettiquette to look down on people are not polite.

I think that treating to all people as you would like is the best form of ettiquette