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extrafine

Aug 8 2008, 05:55 AM

QUOTE (Judybug @ Jul 30 2008, 09:10 AM)

Here's another uniquely female problem ------ I was taught (many moons ago) that, as long as a woman's husband is living (and they are still married, of course), she should be addressed by her husband's name. For example, if she is Sally Doe, married to John Doe, she should be addressed as Mrs. John Doe. If John dies, then she is addressed as Mrs. Sally Doe. So for folks my age and older, seeing "Mrs." in front of a woman's first name told you she was a widow.

Although I don't consider myself a feminist, I wouldn't like always being addressed by my husband's name - although he's still living and we are happily married. After all, I'm a person, not just an attachment to my husband. Also, being addressed by my husband's name really doesn't make much sense when I corresponding with people who don't know my husband.

I wouldn't address anyone as "Mrs John Smith" unless she made it clear that it's what she wants. I'm no feminist (an equalitarian, maybe?), but I find this makes the woman a bit of a chattel, whatever the history may be behind it.

I'm not sure, but I think that this form of address may be particularly American, though I'm not sure. Not using full first names (but only initials) seems to be more British.

I find the habit of women changing their last names upon marriage a little odd as well, though I'll happily call people whatever they want to be called. I somehow would find it odd if my wife were to start using my last name. Strangely, it happens fairly often that people assume that we must have the same last name and, having known her first, proceed to tack her last name onto me. Telemarketers call me by her last name all the time: this is my clue to hang up.

I'm originally from Quebec. Titles in Quebec (French) have evolved in a slightly different way. For example, Madame (originally used for married women) has become somewhat generic in the style of Ms, with only young girls getting Mademoiselle. One occasionally sees foreigners getting slightly offended by this, which is a bit funny.

At uni (this within the last ten years), we tended to call our (male) professors "Sir". Female ones were a bit more of a quandary and seemed to end up with "Professor /lastname/". Another interesting thing is that in French, lawyers have an honourific (Maitre, abbreviated to Me), like doctors. It is not gender-specific.

Oddball

Aug 8 2008, 10:25 AM

In response to the first part of this post, for as long as I could rember my grandparents had a brass plate on their front door that read Mr. and Mrs. Clyde A. Wofford, this was about as anti PC as one could get if you choose to take it there. In my personal experience I was taught that when addressing a married woman it was Mrs. and if she were single, windowed, divorced, or marital status unknown she was a "Ms." any male was Mr.

I have always found calling anyone younger or in a position that was under mine "Mr. X" was a good way to show respect when you requested something of them and they would respond quite well to it.

I was also taught no matter age or position women who you did not know were mam. This is generally fine with folk in the 50+ age group but younger than that I get responses like "I’m not a mam. I’m not that old" or from a waitress (not PC here either) in Massachusetts. "are you from the south?" For men either in a position over mine or who are older than me is always Sir as I never liked the way Mister sounded.
My close friends also were taught this way but we seem to be an exception to the rule for our age group (I’m 25).

MVice78

Aug 27 2008, 10:21 AM

I haven't read the entire content of this post, but I have to agree with both HerosNSuch and Oddball. My grandparents have taught me ways of addressing people that they expect me follow. People are sometimes shocked and excited when they hear me address them in this manner.

Johnny Appleseed

Aug 27 2008, 05:22 PM

QUOTE (Chemyst @ Jul 30 2008, 05:16 PM)

QUOTE (Judybug @ Jul 30 2008, 04:34 PM)

It makes more sense, but I don't know if it's acceptable. That's the problem today -- who knows what's acceptable? What's acceptable to one person may be an insult to another. (Sigh) The world was simpler when there were rules about these things and everybody knew them.

There are rules still, you just need to choose which set you like. As a first approximation you can either:

a.) accept the current popular culture method and drop titles altogether for 99+% of your life. Adults today use titles rarely and you will probably only ever use them with professionals like military officers, judges and doctors.

b.) adopt the more traditional system set up at the height of Victoriana. The system is perpetuated in numerous etiquette books and is readily available from a variety of authors. The problem is, as some here have pointed out, that the system is traditional. It is set up with a bias towards being a wealthy land owning European man. Women are relegated to more a chattel role and end up with constructs like "Mrs. Steven Mallory". This system also seems somewhat clumsy to many, because it is only used with any frequency today for special occasions like weddings.

The awkwardness comes from trying to modernize the traditional system, while ignoring modern convention.

A very good point - it is important to remember that the "rules" were rules that developed out of a particular social context, not timeless rules that were somehow set in stone at the beginning of time and only now being discarded. Reading about the US War for Independance it is interesting to see how the traditions of the times changed - the British and British loyalists saw the American "rabble" as distinctly uncouth for, among other things, rejecting titles of nobility*.

And speaking of Southern ettiquite, let us not forget Fishbait.

John

(*with a couple of exceptions)

ralphawilson

Aug 29 2008, 07:38 PM

Great how many responses this topic has received--too many for me to read them all, so pardon me if I repeat anyone.

Here's my question: What are we trying to convey with Mr., Ms., Miss, or Mrs.? I know the obvious answer is "respect," and I'm all for respect, but does addressing an envelope to me as "Mr. Ralph Wilson" really show more respect than simply "Ralph Wilson?" To me it seems about as perfunctory a gesture as I can imagine, not indicating that the sender cares more about me or knows more about me than Adam. It's simply a formalism, and one that has the inherent problem of potentially offending someone if the 'wrong' form is used. And I'm much more likely to get the "Mr." on solicitation letters and 'personalized' ads than on anything I really want to read.

Certainly there are times when a more formal approach seems appropriate. If for some reason I am writing a letter with the salutation "Dear Mr. Smith," I think using the Mr. in the address line is appropriate style. Otherwise, with personal correspondence to someone I'm on a first name basis with, I say forget Mr., Ms., Mrs, and, yes, Dr.

All that said, I really like that people are thinking and talking about things like this.

hellkitty

Sep 4 2008, 12:08 AM

I tell my students to always err in the way of 'professor.' I HAVE been known, when handed a paper with "Mrs Delong" (yeah, they misspell my last name, too) to offer to send it to my mother, who is the only Mrs DeLong *I* know.

I HAVE a PhD, but my friends who address me as 'Dr' are normally doing it nigh bursting with cheek--as I have been known to address my friend Brigadier General Professor Master of All He Surveys and Hot Slab o' Lunchmeat. My students, however, are given the choice--Professor or Dr, either are acceptable (because the various academic ranks, as someone's already mentioned like 4 pages ago, are kind of muddy and confusing even for us academic types!)

I was Ms when I was married--I hyphenated my last name because I didn't want most of my credentials under one name and my PhD under another. Made me sound like I was building a secret life! Although feminist principles got the better part of common sense--my married name was DeLong-Woodcock. Try writing THAT on a blackboard in front of a roomful of 18 year olds! Since my husband wasn't as committed to feminism as I, he didn't hyphenate, so there couldn't, in our minds, be a Mrs D-W, because there wasn't a MR (or in his case Lieutenant) D-W.

I'm so stuffy that I call my STUDENTS 'sir' and 'ma'am' or Mr (First name) and Ms (Southern pronunciation Mizzz) (first name).

HK, Miss Jackson if you're nasty.... (sorry, couldn't resist).

FieryPhoenix

Sep 11 2008, 03:44 PM

QUOTE (Judybug @ Jul 31 2008, 01:10 AM)

...I was taught (many moons ago) that, as long as a woman's husband is living (and they are still married, of course), she should be addressed by her husband's name. For example, if she is Sally Doe, married to John Doe, she should be addressed as Mrs. John Doe. If John dies, then she is addressed as Mrs. Sally Doe. So for folks my age and older, seeing "Mrs." in front of a woman's first name told you she was a widow.

Although I don't consider myself a feminist, I wouldn't like always being addressed by my husband's name - although he's still living and we are happily married. After all, I'm a person, not just an attachment to my husband. Also, being addressed by my husband's name really doesn't make much sense when I corresponding with people who don't know my husband.

But "Mrs. Judy Landry" is problematic because it may give older people the impression that I'm a widow - or at least make them wonder if I'm a widow.

The only other alternative is "Ms. Judy Landry" which - I think - smacks of political correctness when it's applied to a married woman. I'm afraid it would give people the impression that I don't want anyone to know I'm married.

So - when all is said and done - I suppose "Judy Landry" is best.

I'm curious though - how about you younger people - if you saw "Mrs. Judy Landry" would you assume I was a widow? Are the words "widow" (a woman whose husband has died and she has not remarried) and "widower" (a man whose wife has died and he has not remarried) even used anymore?

Judybug (still living in the last century)

QUOTE (Possum Hill @ Aug 1 2008, 02:14 AM)

...If I assumed a formal rule applied, I'd think that the use of the woman's first name after "Mrs." indicated that she was divorced rather than widowed...

QUOTE (donwinn @ Aug 2 2008, 06:25 AM)

..."Mrs. Mary Jones" would indicate a divorced woman, whereas "Mrs. Robert Jones" would indicate a married or widowed woman...

I think that if the husband's name is A B, and the wife C D (given name & maiden name), then the wife should be addressed as Mrs A B whether her husband is alive or dead. Mrs C B implies that she is divorced, not widowed. It is incorrect for the divorced woman to revert to the use of her maiden name with the title "Miss" (i.e. Miss C D), as it would imply that she has never been married before. Mrs A B can be abbreviated into Mrs B if she is the only or the eldest Mrs B in the household, whereas every other Mrs B should be addressed as Mrs A B, or simply as the more informal Mrs A in close circles.

I always address men as A B Esq. in social correspondence and Mr A B in business ones.

QUOTE (penspouse @ Aug 1 2008, 08:45 AM)

...If being given a title, I prefer Mrs. over Ms. I actually hate that one...

QUOTE (Sailor Kenshin @ Aug 2 2008, 02:52 AM)

...I consider "Ms." offensive...

I don't use "Ms" as some find this rather distasteful. If I don't know the marital status of a woman, and that she doesn't have a professional title (Dr, Professor, &c.), I don't use a title. I will not ask her if she was married, nor ask for her husband's given name if she was.

kudzu

Sep 12 2008, 05:20 AM

I love Ms! And for a number of reasons. It just means I'm a woman, no marital status indicated which parallels the title given to men.

AND, another reason is I'm from the South. It's a variant on what all the women I grew up with were called. All women over a certain age were Miz so-and-so. My beloved maternal grandmother was Miz Cariker to everyone in town. So I'm very happy to be a Ms. or Miz, and even happily respond to being called Mrs. Hubby's-first-name Hubby's-last-name. Even though I kept my own name when I married, none of it matters that much to me anymore. I have bigger fish to fry!

Viseguy

Sep 13 2008, 06:03 AM

QUOTE (yachtsilverswan @ Aug 3 2008, 11:03 PM)

Catholic Cardinals are properly addressed in this sequence (at least in the US).

For example, Roger Cardinal Mahoney is correct. Cardinal Mahoney is also correct. But Cardinal Roger Mahoney is incorrect.

Does anyone have insight on this bizarre address sequence and its history and meaning?

Actually, that usage (which I've always found somehow elegant) has fallen by the wayside. "Cardinal John Doe" has become correct -- in fact, the Holy See itself uses it in its English-language website.

An extremely florid version of "John Cardinal Doe" occurs in the formula by which the Dean of the College of Cardinals announces the election of a new pope. When the current pope was elected, it went this way: Annuncio vobis gaudium magnum: habemus papam, eminentissimum ac reverendissimum dominum, dominum Iosephum Sanctae Romanae Ecclesiae cardinalem Ratzinger, qui sibi nomen imposuit Benedicti decimisexti. Did you catch that title? "...the most eminent and most reverend lord, lord Joseph cardinal of the Holy Roman Church Ratzinger..." Quite a mouthful -- and, of course, most cardinals never hear it applied to them.

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