Greetings!
I’m selling this fountain pen from my personal
Collection.
Total Price is U$230.00 Worldwide.(Registered traceable & insurance
airmail parcel).Additional photos ,contact me back-channel.
I welcome payment by PayPal,using my PayPal I.D. sylviaverasalinas@yahoo.com,please.
FIRST PAYMENT WILL GET THE PEN!
3 days to return for full refund less S&H if you are unhappy with the pen
Don’t hesitate to contact me for any question, please.
Thanks for looking.
Regards,
René Álvarez

contact email: renefountainpens@yahoo.co.uk
DESCRIPTION:
This is an near mint Montblanc 146 fountain pen. Here are the facts about this pen:
* Manufacture: Montblanc
* Model: 146 Meisterstuck
* Body & cap material: Resin body and cap
* Body & cap finish: Burgundy body and cap
* Trim: Gold
* Nib size: Extra Fine (EF)
* Nib material: 14kt gold
* Filling system: Comes with a brass piston filler.
* Condition: Pen is pre-owned and in clean condition. The body and cap are clean with no dents, dings, scratches, cracks or damage. Just the typical micro-marks and micro-scratching from some use. The clip is clean with no wear.The cap band is clean.Beautiful clean star on top of cap. Very, very nice clean nib.
The cap band is laser engraved with Germany and the seriel number. Fantastic pen! Buy a new one at the store for $450.00 or buy this at over 50% less and no one will know what great deal you got.This pen is GUARANTEED GENUINE Montblanc.

I would like to purchase if it is black/gold but the description says Burgundy which is it? Also does it come with original box and documentation?

Hi Shalori,
so sorry for mistake the pen is black.I just sold a burgundy 144 and I'v forgot to change color description.
Thanks for interest.
Rene

Click to view attachment dings on cap top
Click to view attachment clip brassing
Click to view attachment your pic, the perfect angle to hide dings


Rene,

I am posting this message here as you blocked my PM.

Let's cut the name calling and think about what had happened so far.
We are adults and can deal with it as such.

You know, this 30 to 35 dollars would not matter to me,
but I suppose it was more to get something back as an apology.


You, as a self proclaiming 30-year pen collector and seller, post a pen for sale describing it as
almost in mint condition. Go review your own description; no dings and wear, it said.

I bought it honestly believing your description.
In fact, I agree that such a mint pen at $230 is not a bad deal.

You sent me a pen with three ugly black dings on snow cap top
(this was shrewdly hidden from the picture on your post, by the way)
and badly brassed clip with chewed-up plastic ring on feed section.


This is a not a good deal, any way you look at it.
Even for a MB146.
I would rather not deal with such a pen, too stressful.
And I even sent picures to show the problem.

As a seller at this point you should apologize and offer to settle the issue.
For, example, having sold a pen as what is not, you should be responsible for shipping.
You chose to be otherwise.

If it's true your customers were happy then you must have been honest in selling them what you have described.
But What I have from you is not what you described on the sales post.

Instead, you mentioned that it's not your pen and keep telling me to return the pen.
I tried your suggestion in contacting others for a cheaper and insurable shipping method.
No one responded.

USPS is not insuring any parcel to where you are at.
Only way to do it is sending it as an express mail , over $30.
Adding to your shipping, I lose about $45+ just for postage for a $230 pen.

I would rather not send the pen back at that kind of expense, nor take a risk all on my side.
So I proposed a way to settle this by splitting make over cost.
And you call me names.

So what part so far am I pulling a trick on you?

You tell me that you honestly sold a good pen to me.

I want to know. I just can't believe that you did not know the condition of this pen when you sold it to me.
Taking pictures in this post, you succesfully hid ugly dings on snow cap.
The angle was just too perfect to hide all the dings.

Alan

P.S.
Regarding your notion of getting a free make over from MB in Germany or where you are at,
this pen is so old (from 80's) you will not get it repaired for free.
The warranty only lasts first two years, as I have checked with MB customer service.
No matter where you are at. So stop fooling yourself.

Waiting your response.

Here I thought that the FPN would be a safer place to purchase pens than Ebay. I wonder if the FPN has any type of dispute resolution process. Sounds to me like a partial refund is in order if you want to keep the pen.

i would agree. FPN should be a place where pen collecters should be satisfied with buying their pens. We all are collecting pens as a hobby and share our love for this hobby, not like on ebay, where there is a big risk to get a pen thats faulty or fake, MB especially, yeah i got tricked once:_( .

So a partial refund should be in place if all of this info is correct.

FPN should be a place where everyone can trade and buy with fellow members without a hassle.

I agree 100%. That said, even with the flaws I would have paid that if the pen had an M or B nib. Of course, that is if the seller had disclosed them in advance. One feels bad when something arrives not as stated. I have made errors as a seller myself, but always offer to partially or completely refund the buyer.

What was the final outcome on this, I would think that it was made right or you received a refund less perhaps the shipping cost (maybe). I would hope that members of this community would respect a reasonable complaint about a purchase under these circumstances and refund the money under any circumstance.

There is no response from the seller.
We will see what would be his response.

But until now, no apology or acknowledgement, yet.

I hope it would come soon..

As for the pen, I am keeping it.
There is a no way I will send the pen back to the seller
on my expense about $45 on a $230 pen.

This is an expensive lesson I have learned on buying a pen from overseas..

I am hoping that, like all others, this forum could be a trusting environement all over again..

Sorry to hear about something like this happening on FPN.

But if a pen is not as it has been described I think one can get the problem solved.

I had some ebay pens that needed to be serviced although they had been described as "in full working order".
The last pen came with a crack. The seller apologized at length. He had not checked the pen carefully and I believe him because I noticed the crack not until my reading lamp made the brass of the piston visible where it should not be visible.

All these issues could be solved. Either the seller had offered to send the pen back or has refunded half of the repair costs as I had proposed. If I liked the nib I asked for the refund. Even if I had to pay half of the repair in addition to the price of the pen.

I do buy cosmetically imperfect pens but I want to know in advance that the pen is in used condition with some dings and wear. So I can decide if the price is acceptable for me.

Hope you will get an apology and an adequate refund.

It's funny, because a lot of folks see the FPN marketplace as being safer than eBay- or at least, eBay as being a scary place. I certainly don't want to encourage a culture of fear, which benefits no one, but this is a good lesson. Mr.Rene is someone with 450 posts and obviously not some fly by night sort of chap who made an account, ripped someone off and disappeared into the night...

It's funny, because as much as Phillip Benz gets made fun of around here, he is a pretty good guy to deal with, at least in my one transaction. A while back, I won a Sheaffer cheap, description had all the usual hyperbole, and the pen came up very short compared to what was promised. I told him this, listed the issues, and got a refund- including return shipping- from him.

That said, Mr.Rene did say:



So, I don't think it's unreasonable to be asking for return S&H. As a buyer, when I buy something from someone, we enter into a sort of contract. If I were the one selling, I'd see a potential storm brewing and split the S&H. While this pen is not near mint, it is in excellent condition. As a buyer of used and vintage pens, I know that there's always a chance that something won't be to my liking, and I take the location of the item, and shipping costs, into account when I make a decision. I think a lot of people do, and I think it's one of the reasons why a lot of items sold in the marketplace by folks from outside the US go unsold to folks in the US. There have been plenty of pens I've passed over for that reason.

mdp0430 said:


Yeah, and this is it. But, just like eBay's feedback system, it requires active participation to make it work. If I was going to spend $230 on a pen here, I'd search the For Sale forum for that user, see what people had to say before. Mr.Rene might not have had any complaints in his FS threads in the past, I don't know- but he does now, and engaging in due diligence before parting with that kind of cash will come across this thread and think twice. No, not perfect, but it's served this board and similar ones pretty well in the past IMHO. Sometimes, an Admin will step in and ask a seller to make it right- but frankly, it isn't their place nor do they have any power over anyone here other than a ban. Reputation is everything in communities like ours.

Photographic deception, intended or otherwise, on the part of a seller plus the ultra-high standards set by the buyer when he read "near mint" and "Montblanc" in the same post make for a bad combo. Let's hope this gets resolved reasonably and with some lessons learned...

Regards,
Aaron

It's always worth doing a little digging before accepting these things at face value.

You can see from this link that the vast majority of recent posts are for sale. Seems like FPN is being used as a market place by this person. Now if he has had so many satisfied customers from these sales then this dispute may be a one-off...

The security of the FPN market place is based on the expectation of community involvement. In this respect, eBay is a much safer place because there are mechanisms in place to protect both buyer and seller and defined dispute resolution policies. There are no such thing on FPN.

....There is no response from the seller.
We will see what would be his response....

You've got 12 mails from me about this transaction....the last 2 weeks almost 2 emails per day..
1.
Personal Message
Mr.Rene


Re:MB146, Aug 14 2008, 12:43 AM
Alan,
this my final email,so,you should:
1. Keep the pen...or
2. Return to me until August/15,in the same condition that I sent out.After that, no refund U$215.00 anyway
As always,returned shipping is your expense.Registered airmail is 99% safe and economic option,tracking number included.If you prefer other postal service,your choice...
Best Regards,
Rene.
///
2.
Re:MB146, Aug 11 2008, 11:29 PM
Alan,
I buy regularly from USA and shipping cost by registered airmail is around U$18.00 or less.I suggest to contact Sam from Pendemonium or Dennis (from Parkville)they could help with shipping issue,
thanks,
Rene.
/////
3.
Re:MB146, Aug 11 2008, 09:43 PM
I'm sorry Alan but some customers are waiting the pen to buy it and you still does not post the pen to return???
Rene Alvarez
///
4.
Re:MB146, Aug 9 2008, 04:48

Rene S Alvarez Vera
Casilla Numero Uno
Sucursal Tenderini
Santiago, Metropolitana 8320328
CHILE

QUOTE
Rene,

Your address, please?

Thank you

Alan
/////
5.
Re:MB146, Aug 7 2008, 11:35 PM
Dear Alan,
it seems you are describing another pen not I've sent to you..whatever,
You have to return the pen in next 2 days in the same condition you got it,no inked and same packing,please.You know...2 days to return for full refund less S&H if you are unhappy with the pen.After pen received I'll refund your money,
Best Regards,
Rene.
///
ETC. ETC.....
DID YOU GET THE ANSWER NOW?
Thank you so much!,
Rene.

Mr. Rene,

All those emails were prior to this post about your way of doing business.

It seems that you never acknowledge what you have done
as no apologies offered ever in any of the emails, and in fact,
your last email from the bottom stated,

...........it seems you are describing another pen not I've sent to you..whatever

Wow..




If you don't understand the underlying question, let me spell it out for you.

The REAL question is,

Why did you describe the pen that has dings on snow cap and brassing all over cap as "clean"?
You even went to a great length to perfectly stage a picture of the cap at an angle to hide dings..

So far, you have not answered that question.


All other things are not really matter, as you can keep all my money.



But for everyone in this forum's sake, please answer this.

Selling a pen with dings and brassing all over the cap as "clean"
Was that your intention, as a pen collector and seller for 30 years?


I hope you can now understand the question being asked.

Please answer that question.

Alan

Rene or Sylvia, whoever you are,

When you buy items from states and being shipped to you,
it is your own risk if not insured for what it's worth.

When I return something to you in Chile where USPS refuses to insure
more than $46, anything over that value, if lost, it's my risk.
In this case, it would be $169.

For you, it's the same because if the pen is lost, it's not you who will suffer.
So, a caring seller? Think Not!

I cannot and would not return this pen to you to prevent you
from pulling this kind of scam again to another unsuspecting buyer.

I will take the bullet for this one for them.

I hope these clarify why I have not returned the pen to you.

Alan

To me, it doesn't. If you were not happy with the pen, you should have returned it as per the original post of the pen. Whether Mr.Rene is a slimeball or you made an impulse purchase which you regret and hold the pen up to a higher standard a deal's a deal: if the pen ain't right, send it back, less shipping. Yes, it sucks to pay a lot for shipping, but that's the agreement you made when you bought the thing.

I don't think you're taking a bullet for anyone- it assumes an awefull lot to make such a statement. Whether or not Mr.Rene has other buyers waiting- he might, and they might be from this forum- he pointed out more than once to return it to him for a refund.

What more can we expect as buyers and sellers? If I, as a seller, took returns and made refunds including return shipping, I'd have a lot of people returning pens that they had buyers remorse over, found some imperfection with, got yelled at by their S.O. over, or had no intention of keeping. I'd have people buying a pen, saying something was wrong and trying to get a partial refund for the imperfections, haggling over how many angels can be stuffed into a particular nib's breather hole, etc. As a buyer, I'd have no reason not to go and buy a few spendy pens just to try them out- after all, I love somewhere with no pen shop, how else will I try out an Pilot Custom 842, etc?

I mean, it's not like the shipping fees go to Mr.Rene. He has also sunk money into shipping costs that he cannot recover. If he gets the pen back, he doesn't get that money back from the post office, does he? It's a wash, and an expensive one for both of you.

peter pan, I'm not saying you are guilty of any of these things, but there's a system and we need some sort of framework for this to work. Someone posts with an offer of sale, if I pay then I'm agreeing to it. This whole thread is completely not my business on one level, but it's the entire FPN's business on another, especially because it was brought out intentionally into the public. But before I butt out, I'd like to have a word on the record saying what I have. Know the risks involved in a particular purchase- because they exist even for the most scrupulous sellers, if only because they live in another country.

Anyway, I hope this is a lesson to everyone.

Regards,
Aaron

In short, I am holding him responsible for what he said.

To many of us, agreement is built on trust.
If that is not there, nothing is agreed on anymore.

Whether you agree or not, this forum is based on trust.
On that matter, our lives are, too.
If it is not, many of us here are chasing a rainbow in this forum.
But this forum has not been such a bitter place for most of us, at least for me during my short tenure here.

I suppose that there are those who want to take advantage of others many different ways.
Yet, many members of this forum feel that this would be a safe haven from dealing with such frauds.
I, for one, liked this forum because I have not come across one that truely stink, until this one.

When I have made a purchase from Mr Rene, all I expected was what he described, no more, no less.
All I wanted was a clean pen that I can use daily.

What I have? A pen that is not: damaged and brassed.

I have seriously thought about sending it back, because this will remind me about this whole experience.
But, I decided against it to stop him from selling it to others.

In one of his post, Mr Rene wanted to sell this pen to other unsuspecting buyers once he gets the pen.
In fact, I believe there were one member here and another one or two wanting to buy this pen in pentrace.com

And that may have been you.

There was no assumption on my part in taking a bullet for this one.

If and when you buy a pen with a false description that the seller intentionally lied about its condition,
what is stopping him from not refunding the money once the pen is returned to him?
One who lies will lie again.

I have heard many stories about sellers not refunding buyers,
and I was not going to trust this one after his lies.


As for the money Mr. Rene lose on shipping? He should have never started this.
If his intention was to mislead buyers to buy his pen based on his false description he should be paying for it to correct his misdeed.

I now believe that he most likely knew that the shipping his pen back to him would be expensive and that insurance is an issue.
He may have used these as his advantage that perhaps buyers wanting to return pen to him just simply giving up and keeping the pen.
After all, he is self-proclaimed 30 years of pen collector and seller. He should have known all about it.
Truely, I have no way of knowing this.
But his previous sales posts include so many deletions, obviously by him, I am not sure what to believe.


I am hoping that members of FPN learn from this and
be very careful in purchasing pen from other countries, for risks outlined by Aaron.

Alan

Just send the pen back and get your refund. I understand your thing about insurance... but you entered into that world of risk when you bought the pen.

Many people here have bought and sold internationally. It is hard for me to be sympathetic to you when you will not just send the pen back!

I freely admit that shipping uninsured internationally is stressful. Yeah it is, but as I said, you chose to get into this. Rene is not out to steal money from anyone, he is offering you a refund within the terms of the deal. When you started this deal you knew that you would have to pay the return charges if you were not happy, and now you are freaking out! You should have found out how much it would cost to return the pen BEFORE you bought it because now you are just complaining with no real evidence of wrong-doing.

As for the pen not being as described: I bought a pen from a reputable dealer here and it was not "as described." You know what I did? I returned it within the terms of our agreement. Honestly man, we do not know if YOU damaged the pen. All we know is that Rene is offering you a refund within the terms of the agreement and you are trying to change the rules. You should know better than that. Claiming that you are taking some kind of high road to protect the rest of us is BS.

It sounds like sour grapes to me. You should think before you buy next time and not use this forum to malign community members who are offering to act perfectly within the deal that YOU MADE.

I seriously doubt that he caused the brassing in the short amount of time he's had the pen.
Peter Pan: Have you considered trying to sell the pell for the same amount you paid but with full disclosure? If it writes well, you may have someone wanting a reasonably priced MB146 for a user pen.

Lloyd,

In all, I think I am finding out more of this forum.

As to this pen, I am not going to deal with it now.
Perhaps later on.

But, thank you for your advice, Lloyd.

Alan

Awkward situations these. One mans 'mint' is a mile away from mine. Try and keep communicating thats all I can advise.

I am not saying that Peter Pan damaged the pen. I have no idea.

I am just saying that Peter Pan made a deal with Rene. Peter Pan knew when he bought the pen that he could mail it back and get a refund. Now he is refusing to take the action that he agreed to.


I only mentioned the damage to preempt any argument that Peter Pan wants to make about the improper description. Reasonable people disagree about condition, it's the way it works.

What Peter Pan should be learning about the forum is that people around here like to adhere to the terms of the deals that they make.

Did you do that, ever? What purpose would it serve?
Risking your money? That would be something only a thoughtless may do.
Perhaps you are kind enough to tell how you get something done? I may never know.

But, I know that most members in this board will not and would not do that, including myself.
Because we are not here to get someone, rather to buy a pen we like and share our experiences.

Maybe you have your own issue here.





Hmm..
Mr Rene acted perfectly within the deal by not fully disclosing the pen's flaws, huh?

Maybe you do have an issue.
It sounds like you are protecting him and making me a guilty party.

I wonder why..

Anyhow, I am OK as people know what types of people are out there to get them.
Intentions of these not-so-honest people are, for example:

Selling the pen without a full disclosure and posting staged pictures.
Trying to return a pen by damaging it intentionally once they received it, as someone just suggested.
Insisting buyer to take all risks and you are to trust a seller who lied to begin with.

Let's be careful..
This board has some ugly pot holes bigger than I think..

Alan

If the seller is willing to discuss, I suppose.
But, he shuts off his PM on me to end that channel.

No apology, either.

No other way to talk to him.

Alan

I did not suggest that you damaged the pen. I am saying that we are all third parties so no one knows. All we know, with certainty, is that you bought a pen that you are not happy with. You have been offered a refund if you will abide by the terms of the deal, yet you refuse.

You keep accusing Rene of lying about the condition and staging the photos. Let us assume he did - what is your recourse? To RETURN THE PEN!

Return the pen, get your money back, and let Rene sell it to someone who is not going to whine about it.

Well I do agree with Peterpen to an extent.This site is for pen lovers and not for those who just want to sell and make money without ethics like other commercial sites.I do know as a buyer how cheated you feel when something doesnt turn out to be as descibed or theres a good deviation from the description.Those who sell on this site should atleast follow this kind of ethics if they consider themselves pen lovers.Anyways theres nothing that can be done peterpen so no use sitting on this,just take it as a lesson and be careful next time.

Am alright with that.

Many thanks to you all with kind words and encouragement in both good and not-so-good ways.




Except, of course, Mr. Rene.



I have learned a big lesson through this ordeal.
I suppose this is the lesson fee that I have to pay..


Alan

I would actually consider giving him what he paid for it. Need to sell some things first, but knowing the physical condition of the pen and assuming that it is functional and writes as well as any other 146 I've used I would consider it a good deal.

Am I the only one who sees the brassing in the second and last one supplied by Mr. Rene? Kind of obvious so I don't know why a person would be surprised to see it on the actual pen.

This is exactly how I feel about it.
I have learned my lessons with pens and felt cheated because some of them were definitely not in working order. I let it be if it was less than 20 Euros. Not worth the hassle. More expensive pens I have sent back or I have sent them for repair. Postage was on me. Insured postage within Germany had been 4-5 Euros and I paid for it. And I paid half of the repair, too.

I feel much more forgiving if the seller apologizes, stays to the facts and the communication is pleasent. In this case I don't care about additional postage or additional charges for the repair. I have the feeling that the communication had been something that went terribly wrong between Mr. Renee and Peter Pen.

Some time ago I had won two ebay auctions for the same kind of pen. One came with a crack and the other took it's time to arrive. I made the mistake and emailed to the seller of the pen that had not yet arrived and started a great confusion. I realized my mistake when I checked the address to send the pen back!

Fortunately the conversation had been very polite and matter-of-factly. The missing pen arrived two days later in very good shape. The seller of the good pen accepted my apologies. The seller of the cracked pen apologized for not inspecting the pen carefully. He was very interested in solving the matter. I had the chance to send the pen back but asked him to pay half of the repair. He accepted. I will pay at least another 25 Euros to get it repaired.

A compromise can make you feel good if both have a win/win feeling even if you loose some money. But a communication that goes into the wrong direction makes it very difficult to find a compromise.

Unless the seller disclaimed his description as to accuracy, the buyer is entitled to reimbursement for his costs to comply with the agreement to return if not satisfied. A seller cannot rely upon his deception to avoid this responsibility. Otherwise, there would be no risk in posting deceptive ads all the time to move undesirable goods. Therefore, it is reasonable to require the seller to pay for the consequences of his deceptive misrepresentation of the goods (i.e., the shipping and insurance cost that would never have been incurred by the buyer had the description been accurate).

However, we then enter the world of risk and practical remedies. I'd simply resell the pen as a user and avoid this seller henceforth. Because of the lack of seller's credibility, the buyer should not return it because of the other risk that no one seems to mention: the seller may keep the money and the pen.

I agree this is not a taking of bullets for the rest of us. That's a bit of a stretch. You got burned and it hurts.

Fred

With all due respect, I am against the public debate in these situations.There's no need for it, as it doesn't serve anyone's interest. Contact the seller. If seller is a dishonest person, report the transaction to Paypal or to the credit card company. If entitled, you will receive your money back including shipping costs or not. If you want to prevent someone else getting in trouble with the seller, contact the FPN admin team and they will evaluate the facts and make a decision . Based on one single episode, you can't say for sure that a seller is or isn't honest or the buyer is trustworthy or not. All this talk affects both of your reputations in my opinion.
In case of a dispute, please try to resolve this exhaustively backchannel. Only if and when you can't agree to a workable solution between a seller, buyer and/or trader, contact the admins of this board, preferably via the Report button, which you can find underneath each message on the board here. This set of subforums is only a service to our members here, no more, no less.

Warm regards,
The FPN Admin Team

Once again it was not my intention to take sides or to offend anyone. I am just saying that we can settle things quietly. And I do hope that things will work out ok for both of you.
Best wishes,

That healthy discussion cannot be done alone, can it?

This was not intended for a public discussion.
I was asking him to get back to me.
His reply? You can read it in previous page.

At the beginning of the discussion, I have asked for how this should be done, as adults.
Not many choice is left when seller decides not to talk to you.

My reputation? All I wanted to do was to buy a pen from a seemingly a reputable guy.
And little did I knew, pictures, to be helpful tool, can be staged to get you instead.
That should never be allowed in this forum, if you ask me.

I am merely asking what his intentions were, doing what his done.
If an honest mistake, say it so. If not, what else would he do? Perhaps be very, very defensive.
I am willing to accept his apology if offered. But it has not come yet.
Maybe it never will, I am not sure.

If the seller does not have guts to stand up for what he/she did, so be it.
That is what he/she is.

I have said already that I am going to move on than sitting here and grilling this over.

You know, anyone can make a mistake.
But what is important is what you do after that.
To many, it is an opportunity to make it right.
To some, it is an opportunity to be otherwise.

Mr Rene's choice is clear at this point until proven otherwise.

Enough said.


Alan

Greetings!
I was expecting that, a touch of common sense;Well done!
THANKS ALL!!!
Rene Alvarez,

Peter Pan,

Do what the admin team suggests: File a claim with PayPal, your CC, or both, if you feel cheated. The terms of use of this forum specifically prohibit the type of protracted discussion that is occurring in this thread.

I cannot believe this thread has taken on these proportions. First, I have been a customer of Mr. Rene, and I was very happy with the pen I got. I found it to be nicer than the description or the pictures. To the point, I understood I had a three day examination period, and that I could return the pen. The postage issue is a side issue to the conditions of the sale. It is apparent that the postage is your main issue.

I think the FPN Admin Team is right on. Your dispute with Mr. Rene did not have to take the form of an ambush on one of his sale items. There is discussion with the seller, as the Admin Team suggests, and there is a whole forum dedicated to issues just like this, the "Market Watch." Not every site has this accommodation.

Whatever your goal, you have indeed succeeded in shooting Mr. Rene in the foot.