This has probably already been done, but if not, here you go.
ps. I thought Noodler's would be the most expensive. Seems its the best deal. Prices are from Pear Tree.


Private Reserve is $8.40/50ml 16.80 cents/ml
Noodler's is $12.50/88.71ml 14.09 cents/ml
Noodler's Eternal $12.75/30ml 42.50 cents/ml
Pelikan $ 5.50/30ml 18.33 cents/ml
Diamine $12.75/80ml 16.00 cents/ml


-Gawain

Noodlers, PR, and Diamine are amazing values for what they are. Let's continue with this. I'm going to use Swisher as my source for prices:

Herbin $9/30ml-30 cents/ml
Lamy $7.50/50ml-15 cents/ml
Montblanc $11/50ml-22 cents/ml
Noodler's Eyedropper $15/133ml-11 cents/ml
Omas $14/77ml-18 cents/ml
Parker $8.75/57ml-15cents/ml
Platinum $6/30 ml-20 cents/ml
Visconti (spaceship) $15/40ml-37.5 cents/ml
Visconti (refill) $7.50/50ml-15 cents/ml

The price for the fancy Visconti bottle become really apparent in this list. I imagine you'd see the same thing for the caran ink.

I've only purchased Pelikan's 62.5ML bottles, for $7.50, which is stupidly cheap at $0.08 per ML. Or even their 250ML bottle for $17.55 at $0.07 per ML. Best is their 1000ML bottle for $50, which comes in at a remarkable $0.05 per ML.

Of course only Royal Blue and Brilliant black are offered at these sizes, but they are both very good inks. I might have bought the 1L bottle of Royal blue if I didn't have 13OZ of Legal Lapis and the urge to try Diamine inks.

Sorry, I just didn't want Pelikan to be misconstrued as an expensive ink

Where did you get those larger volume bottles for those prices??

Edit: Swisher has the 62.5ml bottle on sale for $6.32 - which actually works out to about $0.10ml

I can't believe no one's mentioned the price of Caran D'Ache. Usually it's around $19 a bottle. Before we run crazy with worries over price, compare what you'd pay in cartridges. Bottles are a huge value...and you probably get hundreds of pages of writing from each.

I did refer to that ink (by just part of the name -- caran) but didn't include it because I didn't see it at Swisher. The Pendemonium price is $19, which works out to 63 cents per ml.

Rohrer & Klingner works out to 24 cents per ml at the Pendemonium price.

Stipula is a comparative bargain at 20 cents per ml.

Sailor ink is 27 cents per ml.

I wish we could consolidate the list and stick it to the "Inky Thoughts" forum?????

Erick

This topic pops up with some regularity.

My thought was just how long does it take to go through a 2oz. bottle of ink. To get this into the realm of practical discussions of economy a person would have to go through better than a bottle a month.


FWIW, I think Pendemonium sells the 1 liter bottle of Pelikan Black, or Blue, for around $50 USD + shipping. Whats that, a nickle an ml...............

No surprises here, and being that the amount of ink that is bought lasts a while, one ml is far more affordable compared to an ml of ballpoint pen ink.
As mentioned above, the larger bottles of Pelikan Brilliant Blue and Black ink can be found at Pendemonium.

Definitely. At about $1/ml, Parker Quink in cartridges comes out at about the same price as good Eau de Cologne...

Let me add another perspective to the ink price topic: Ink prices depend on where you are located. Locally produced inks tend to be cheaper than imported brands.

E.g. in Europe Pelikan, Lamy, Parker, Waterman, Rohrer & Klinger or Diamine inks are the best deal.
The US brands like Noodlers and Private Reserve or the Japanese Sailor inks are much more expensive due to exchange rate, transportation, tax etc..

In the USA Noodlers or Private Reserve are a better deal than most of the inks produced overseas.

Of course there are brands that are generally more expensive than others (like Montblanc) but buying the ink that is produced nearby gives you more ink for your money.

I'm enjoying this discussion. I started the conversions because every ink manufactuer sells ink in different volume bottles it seems. I was pleasantly suprised by Noodler's numbers. Anyway, lets let this thread run for a bit, then I'll compile all the different brands and values, put in a table, and give it to a mod to publish somewhere. Even though I spent 4 years in the U.S. Military, I still haven't learned not to volunteer for anything..



-Gawain

Really afraid for the de-misconstructing, but $7.50 / 62.50 = $0.12 not 0.08, pelikan value is very good given the quality but it's not cheap (sigh). You can buy 350 ml bottles of Pilot Ink for $13.85 + S&H at Ujuku's web site. I had very good service and really fast shipping. No affiliation etc., I'm a very satisfied customer. I find the ink to be really very black in my Heroes (100, 187.. - feared a grayish colour, but no such problem arised) and more fluid than Pelikan's. Much more water resistent also, and I have and appreciate both 4001 Royal blue and Brillant black (3 Eur a 30ml bottle, that's a whopping 10 eurocent/ml in B&M stores in Italy). I consider both brands excellent inks, on par with astounding Diamine (best brand of ink I used so far from an aesthetic point of view, but that's only my personal limited opinion).

Edited to correct typos

And Dux ink is 3 RMB per bottle that's about $0.45 each and probably 30 ml so $0.015 per ml.

may I just add that we would need to keep the store consistant, because different sellers have different prices. I find Swishers (no affiliation) to have good prices on ink.

That's important jdboucher, but I wonder which source has the most available brands? Don't want to leave out someone's favorite ink.

The problem with keeping the store consistent is that there seems to be no retailer that carries every single popular brand.

We could do a matrix with all popular sellers and the price per ml. We could also do an average of enough retailers that each brand has at least a couple of price points. The final solution would be to create a pecking order (Pendemonium, if they don't sell it then Swisher, if they don't sell it then Pear Tree, etc).

I like that approach Jimmy!
Since I'm the new guy on the block, I've got to ask the question. Who has the largest selection of ink manufacturers? Should we create a pecking order as Jimmy suggests. Remember, I've volunteered to do all the hard work... LOL

You know what's funny? I tried to delete this thread because I thought no one would really be interested. Good thing we can't delete our own threads. LOL

-Gawain

That's all fine, but I have one question - why is my shop third on the list?

We may not carry every single popular brand, but our selection is fairly large number of ink brands. More importantly, we may be one of the few shops that makes a whole-hearted effort to carry EVERY ink available from the brands we carry (outside of exclusives, of course).

In bottled fountain pen inks, we carry the complete line of the following 14 ink makers:

• Aurora
• Caran D'Ache
• Diamine
• J. Herbin
• Lamy
• Noodler's
• Omas
• Sailor
• Private Reserve
• Parker
• Pelikan
• Sailor
• Visconti
• Waterman

If the ink you want isn't on the list, let me know and I'll do my best to add it. We'd like to be the one place to go for all of your ink needs.

James

Seriously, I put you third because I was trying to reverse the order in which the shops came up in the thread. The OP went with you first. I then cited Swisher and then Pendemonium. I didn't want to be seen favoring any of you in particular. If you really want to cry, cry for Art Brown or FPH.



I think the ink that jumps out at me that you don't carry is Montblanc. I don't own a single bottle and may never own one, but it's an ink that is really rather popular.

I'll say this here in public, James -- I really enjoy your Twitter stream and consider throwing my ink business to you each time I place an order. You won't always win (Levenger got my last order, but I didn't have an option of many vendors there), but I have a soft spot for your operation.

You're right - not quite sure how I got $0.08 per ml


I was under the impression that Mont Blanc does not retail inks or pens online, making people go to brick and mortar shops that are certified by Mont Blanc. Or I'm just horribly mistaken, either or.

That may be the problem with Montblanc and Pear Tree. If so, it's totally understandable. I'm not complaining that not everybody has every single type of ink ever -- I just think it complicates using one source to do a chart.

Hi James,

I've mentioned your fine establishment at least five time this week because I received my first batch of ink samples. I think you are a marketing genus to think that system up. In fact, I'm here right now just because it was so much fun to try the different inks. I can't wait until I can order again! LOL... and I think the 30 day cooling off period is great as well... it allows us to anticipate a liitle bit...

Just thought you might want to know!


Gawain

I've not looked into carrying Montblanc inks simply because I was under the same impression - that Montblanc woudn't allow their products to be sold by those not under the Montblanc "boutique" banner.

There are a few other inks I've been trying to get into the store, but with no success as of yet. Those include R &K, DeAtramentis, and Abraxas inks.

And Gawain, thanks for the mentions! I don't do traditional advertising, so word of mouth has been how my business has literally grown from my kitchen table to what it is now - my dining room table (just kidding).

James

I agree. We should do a matrix with several sellers. Again this would take a lot of work so maybe we could split it up. Maybe get 7 of us and we can each pick a seller and do the math. We can then combine them into a single Excel sheet.



James,
I would be really happy if you could get R&K, DeAtramentis, and Abraxas ink. I have never tried them, but would def order a few more ink samplers if you could get them

Watermans should be on your list. Canadian shops in Ottawa and Montreal are selling 50ml bottle for about $10.
Thats pretty good value. Parker quink at Staples was about $8 for a 50ml bottle.

I'm also curious "how long does it take to go through a 2oz. bottle of ink?". Lately I noticed how much more often I'm refilling my converter writing with the Lamy 1.1 italic nib, instead of my extra fine nib. I must get at least one double sided page per refill?

When we shop around for the lowest ink price... is it because we need to save every spare penny to put toward the next unnecessary-but-desired expensive pen?

I'll add waterman Dimeotane. This started because I'm a new fountain pen person and I noticed every bottle of ink from a different manufacturer contains a different quantity of said inky stuff. I took a few different manufacturers and converted price to "per one oz" so that I could compare apples and apples basically. I posted my results for everyone's benefit, then it just took off a little bit. I'll compile a spreadsheet of what we have here and what's available at our favorite ink suppliers in the next week or so and send it to this list.

-Gawain

Another option for keeping the price consistent, independent of who may sell it, is to go with the MSRP. I'm not sure how easy that information is to gather, but it would take 'brands carried' and 'discount/sale prices' out of the equation.

greg

(edited for spelling)

I for one would LOVE to see such a chart of ink prices. One thing that bothers me about buying ink online is the price of shpping. I am not complaining about overpricing here, it's just that it hurts to buy a bottle of Ink X for $10.00 and see the shipping at $5.95! I can't blame the online sellers for this--they should not lose money from shipping--but it is why I could end up with a bottle of MB ink from a place like Pen Boutique in Columbia, which is only about a 25 minute drive from work and home. I'd pay I guess around $11.00 for a bottle plus sales tax = $11.66 in my area, versus up to $17.00 online. What has kept me from it so far is that I haven't needed any of MB's colors. I hate to complicate, but shipping does factor in for this online ink buyer. Good luck, and thanks so much for offering to compare online ink prices for us!

This is great information - puts things in perspective for me - I was really thinking that Diamine was horribly expensive before I read this break down !

I think Greg's suggestion of basing it off the MSRP is an excellent one. This is how Greg Clark used to do this in The Ink Sampler and I'm guessing Kass may have the per/ml pricing available in the upcoming new Ink Samplers.

If whoever is compiling this info would like help with US MSRP's, drop me an email (sam@pendemonium.com) and be happy to provide whatever retail price info I can.
Sam


[quote name='gregamckinney' date='Jul 29 2008, 10:26 AM' post='685542']
Another option for keeping the price consistent, independent of who may sell it, is to go with the MSRP. I'm not sure how easy that information is to gather, but it would take 'brands carried' and 'discount/sale prices' out of the equation.

Sharkle,

I agree that a chart of ink prices is a great idea. I would also suggest to you to try MB's inks. I'm using Bordeaux and
enjoying it very much! While I'm still not a big MB fan penwise,I have to say that it is worth it to get their ink and try it.
If nothing else,you have a shoe-shaped inkwell to put various types of inks into!

John

I feel the same way! Ours is not what I'd call a cheap hobby by any stretch of the imagination. It's a lot like driving 10 extra miles to get gas for a penny less per gallon.

I've been sticking with PR almost exclusively because I can buy it locally off the shelf. No shipping, no waiting, and I can toothpick a sample on the spot. It retails at $8.40, so, for the above premiums, I don't mind paying a tiny bit more.

You speak, and I listen. R & K is on its way. Still working on the others, but I'm making progress!

James

I would definitely order a few bottles of Abraxas ink if you can get a good selection of their ink in stock!

You know what would be really impressive? Finding a way to get Noodler's and the Singapore store with the exclusive ink to that country to authorize somebody to become the exclusive US seller of that ink.

(Yes, of course I'm evil. I am a criminal defense attorney.)

Made in India , by Luxor
Parker Quink Royal-blue-washable Rupees 25.00 for 30ml bottle . ( about say 43 Rupees = 1$ US , so equal to 0.58 $ US )
Parker Quink Permanent Black . Same .
As of today , in Calcutta, was rupees ten a year or so back , should have stocked up .

Pinaki .

My wife came back today with a bottle of Aurora black....for £1.65 !! now that is a bargin.

It was the last bottle in the shop ! perhaps it is vintage !

The ink is great as well

The capacity is simply not there. First...one can't hire people in Massachusetts, it's next to illegal...and uncompetitive with just about every other state (with the possible exceptions of NY, NJ, RI and CA). The raw materials to make several inks are near impossible to produce in larger quantities. If the capacity was possible, you bet a strong effort would be made to flood the market until the cost to the pen user could be driven down considerably and availability dramatically increased. The best that can be done is to make as much as is possible, ship it with as little cost as possible to one place...and hope that at least a few people can get it off the shelf in a store at a reasonable cost.

The capacity is not there for inks of that nature. The moment it is, you will see the volumes rise and the costs decline to the consumer. Blue Ghost even went from the 1 oz bottle to the larger size because of such savings.

It is best to not advertise the most difficult inks to produce that are known in advance to be of an extremely limited quantity. They are released quietly, sell out....and then at least somebody obtained some pleasure in their use somewhere. If it is announced anymore, it only makes people angry who are not at that particular location. They will not sell at higher prices from Noodler's, and if they go higher in the aftermarket...that is the aftermarket that did it - NOT Noodler's. Our margins have always been razor thin (and a couple retailers not paying their bills can easily sink us).

If it were not for shipping costs, you would see the price of this heavy and fragile product fall in every category (every ink, not just Noodler's). That has more to do with oil prices than ink, however...

Nathan,

My thanks to you for explaining some marketing strategy I really wasn't angling for you to address. It makes a lot of sense when you put it that way.

So I vote we create an excel spreadsheet. The "y axis" columns should contain ink brands. The "x-axis" rows should contain MSRP and retailers. I'm sure we could pick a few of us to create this. I'd offer to do a list for a store.

...and when Noodler's is sold by the quart and the gallon? Now and then that happens - and on a per oz. level it is the best cost to the consumer going. However, few people want to see the shipping bill for a gallon from a retailer....and we sell ink in India (that's a market where if your ink does not do a dance and absolutely sing with better properties than the local competition - the absolute best durability of any ink in the world...your ink is then left in the dust after shipping costs around the globe have already kicked you in the teeth!).

The last sale of any quarts was at the Boston Pen show this past year (one in the parking lot, one at the show - a Heart of Darkness). The shipping costs are awful for a bottle that size now. It is best delivered by hand.

If ink cost nothing to manufacture, the bottles and caps were free, shipping was telepathic, and boxes were spun by elves....we would sell a bottle for a penny to cover the label glue! Reality and the need for the resources each bottle represents speak otherwise - but the margin remains at the razor's edge always....nothing is wasted on fancy packaging/bottles or advertising, dilution or weakened ink properties. The product is the ink and the value is within the properties of the ink...not the packaging!

Some math:

Best price on a particularly famous disposable rollerball with durable ink: $2.17 with tax (the lowest price I could find for a durable ink model with the larger ink capacity)

How many barrels fill up one bottle of "Heart of Darkness": approx. 74-76 units.

Cost of pen included with Heart of Darkness: $0 (included at our expense, the price per bottle is the same as a standard Black 4.5 oz. bottle - so shop around for the best price....we intended this to be a compelling balance sheet comparison! It is an exercise to prove the fountain pen is a better economic and environmental value than the disposable pens at your local store....by a VERY SIGNIFICANT MARGIN)


Property durability of HOD exceeds that of the famous roller ball in numerous chemical tests as well as the "lawn" test (Greg Clark once placed documents out on the roof or lawn exposed to the sun and rain...HOD does very well in this test! Try it yourself and see how many days it takes to destroy the ink, paper, or both...).

So...74-76 units depending on model X $2.17 = $160.58 to $164.92 (the value of Heart of Darkness in terms of the most durable modern liquid roller ball pens) The best price for Heart of Darkness is about 10% of that. So, how many still claim the fountain pen is a frivolous luxury item? Hmmm?

I have to say, taking an old inkwell or bottle to the local pen store and getting a 'fill up' of Noodler's ink would be TOTALLY COOL and quite green! And less expensive, of course. Too bad I have no local pen store to convince to do this, but still...

Argh, so I'm no longer in Shanghai, and I didn't have enough time to buy more ink.
But the Hero 202 Blue-Black I bought is by far the cheapest of any I have used.

Hero 202 Blue-Black: 2.5 RMB/bottle (60ml) = $0.3649 USD (60ml) = $0.00608167/ml

I guess I should find some in HK and see the pricing before I go back to Vancouver, as it's likely to be fairly cheap in HK, though not as cheap as in Shanghai.

I have a suspicion that depending on how things go the next decade or so, those of us who lament not having a local pen store will be precisely the ones to start up such a business.

I'm in Indonesia Batam Island just bought 3 bottles of Hero's ink, one black and two blue black 59ml and they cost me Rp 5,000 each (US$0.54). Really cheap right??

Yeah, I think we'll be leaving Hero's ink off the list, LOL

FYI, I was in Castle in the Air this afternoon and they carry a wide array of Abraxas inks.
The colors seemed quite nice and the inks well-behaved. I picked up the
light grey ink and am loving it so far. MAke sure you get the
fountain pen-friendly ink (or just order by number from the Abraxas site, to avoid
any and confusion). To be clear though, the inks are not cheap (around 15$)

I am not affilated with CitA, just a very happy customer.

m

Noodler's made a similar ink (meaning the same dye families) for school use by request. It was shipped surface back when oil cost less than $50 per barrel, and in bulk. It is a very cheap dye family, I believe the lowest cost dye family on the planet. Several ink manufacturers use it to this day. It was never available in the Noodler's selection, but we did make it now and then in bulk and beat the Chinese overseas price in bulk - of course without using the same ingredients they use for preservation (they are not legal in the USA, nor would they ever be permitted to touch my hands). It was not possible to make it as a pH neutral ink (among many reasons this dye family is not in the Noodler's selection - it is VERY acidic). It also never was branded as "Noodler's Ink" and was strictly private label overseas issue "generic school ink". Capacity restrictions caused the company to exit that field when oil exceeded $80/barrel (which affects many costs). The costs for shipping were a factor too (China is much closer to the schools that still use such inks today).

Acidic dyes are always MUCH less costly. That's due to the nature of the dye market...more so than the ink market (has to do with other industrial users of dyes, such as textile companies that do not like acid dyes). Hence, "selling the bottle and packaging" with a cheap dye vrs. "selling the ink properties, and not the bottle or packaging" regardless of dye costs or rarity/difficulties in production. Most companies go for the cheap dye with elaborate packaging - their net is much higher as a result. To the Chinese company's credit - they price that dye where it should be priced IMO - worth less than even the least costly glass anywhere else. Cartridge costs are another issue entirely...always over priced (the least costly from China equals $38 today equivalent to 3 oz. of bottled ink).

Once in small glass bottles, shipping costs give a clear advantage to the Chinese companies in the acid dye based ink market of Southeast Asia. It is notable that they do not bother offering any of the other dye families outside the lowest cost conventional dyes, however.... Too much $.