Weird thing with oddities in pendom.

The SJ brown/yellow/green pens are highly sought in certain circles. Sort of how Mandarin Duofolds were poor sellers in their day, but today...

I do like 51's far better DJ than SJ, but am happy to grab SJ pens in the top colors, given the demand for them.

-d

Your point, I guess, is that the Poster, was impolite.
OK
Then why are you getting so excited? Why yell?

My opinion is that the Poster wants a fair price for his/her pens and feels that offering them for sale on the open marketplace is the best way to do that.
If people want compensation for their information then let them know that.
If they don't pay for information here let them get it somewhere else.

That's all there is.
Relax, take a deep breath .....

Glenn, you love to stir the pot, a very troll like tendancy on your behalf. I was trying to get something through to you, which you are absolutely incapable of understanding.

I should know better than to try to make sense with you, I will refrain from attempting to do so in the future.

Cheers,
Sean

Hi all, as much as i like to completed a set of vac buy failed. I suggested to the seller but failed. I think the seller have the right to decide if he chose to sell here or there. let us all be happy and not losing any good pals' here. Please don't fire me......

I am not being rude to you but your thinking may help me to reconsider a deal..

I was offered a 18k doufold for US$10,000. by a Senoir collector over here (there were only 20 pcs in the world to my understanding.)
The question is that should I buy it since I am a Parker pen lover. Or I should buy a thick 916 gold chain Or save up the money for my children studies??????
So now where are we???????

I think he's yelling because you seem not to understand simple "speaking". And, whilst i cannot know what you are thinking, your written texts suggests a deliberate obtuseness, rather than a primary intellectual deficit. Hmm, i could like this bold text thing.

Intead of advising him to take deep breath, i advise you to listen. You are, after all, the only one who gave the OP in this thread bad pen advice.

cheers

d

I don't know market for a modern(?) alloy gold Duofold, but doubt it has the weight at $10k that is had by a heavy gold chain

d

I am not "stirring the pot" other than stating an alternate opinion.
Which is what this is all about.
I insulted no one.
If that makes me a "troll" then I need to check my definition of what an internet "troll" is because I have no idea.

BTW, there are a neat feature for members here called the "ignore" option, people can always just choose to ignore me and my opinions. (I choose to exercise that option on several of the members participating in this discussion.)

I am sure they are all deeply disturbed by that fact...

I guess all my points stand.

d

The DJ vac 51s were sold domestically,while SJs vacs of the mustard/beige/green variety were sold across the pond......
I certainly wouldn't turn my nose up at one if it presented itself at a good price..........
Especially if it were Nassau Green........


John

I hadn't heard that (no joke, fer once). Sources for that?

best regards

david

I believe that I had read that on Ernesto's Parker 51 website(I apologize for not remembering his last name). To
specify and further bolster my comment about SJ vac 51s is this tidbit from the Sheperd's Parker 51 book(pg.29):

"Three other colors made up the range:Buckskin Beige(tan),Nassau Green and Yellowstone(mustard). These last three
rarely featured in any promotional material and were only sold with gold caps and were their premiere models. FAR
FEWER SINGLE-JEWELED PENS WERE MADE IN THESE THREE COLORS AND CONSEQUENTLY ARE VERY RARE AND
ATTRACT HIGHER PRICES THAN THE DOUBLE-JEWELED VERSIONS. The reverse is true is true for the other four
colors."(Emphasis mine)

I have also seen sold on fleabay in the past several DJ Nassau Green 51s(sets or singles)with sterling silver caps,
the above statement proving that they were mismatches...........

But they can still be enjoyed,nonetheless.

John

I need to correct something in my previous post. I think that I gave the impression that ONLY SJ vac 51s in the Nassau
Green/Buckskin Beige/Yellowstone colors were sold overseas. This wasn't true--the other colors were sold also,but the
SJ models of those three colors were only sold overseas;DJ models of the three colors were sold here in the US.

John

I do recall reading somewhere that highline colors in SJ versions were only made for export.

The SJ were in 1947 for export. I think Ernesto has some ad order form where the export 51's were only SJ, even high priced caps (So a SJ 14k capped pen).

George

Hi John,

Oh, the relative scarcity is not at issue. I just had not heard before the SJ tan/yellow/green were aimed overseas.

regards
d

ClassicChronograph doesn't seem to be that bad to me. He stated right up front that he was hoping for price advice and that all these pens were going on eBay. It wasn't duplicitous in the least.

He also gave the FPN community a jump-start on these pens by pretty much letting the community assign the value, see the pictures first and know about the auctions that were coming.

He even went so far as to admit when he made mistakes in pricing on eBay. This might have been his main mistake in and of itself. It seems like once he admitted that he could have lost a significant amount of money, that the FPN members who helped with appraisals felt they should get a kickback for saving him from this end.

I tend to agree with Glenn-SC. If you feel you should compensated for your appraisals or expertise, then you should advertise as such openly. Either negotiating backchannel or becoming a consignment seller for CC would have worked. It seems silly though to post your appraisal on a bulletinboard (or keep up lists of previous sales on your website) and then complain when you are not compensated for this widely available information.

Please back your assertion that on FPN compensation for expertise or appraisals was requested and that anyone complained about not being so compensated.

regards

david

Reading from your post (#25) where you mention it would be "courteous" to offer some sales to FPNers who helped him avoid his $25 Buy-it-now error and then the follow on dozen or so posts of "Amen", "I'd appreciate a gratis pen for my trouble", "Poetic", "I always offer my pens here for that very reason" and the follow on me-too posts.

I understand pens are a business to a couple people on here, but it seems to me that you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can freely offer information and pricing advice for eBay sales if you like or you can offer to sell your expertise, but to offer it up and then later mention that you want compensation (money, first pick of the litter, etc...) is not in good faith.

Hi David,

I guess if one thinks about it,it would seem to make sense to have another avenue to sell "your" rare colors overseas,
but keep the luxurious look of DJ 51s at home. Just an interesting thought to ponder..........

John

Your quotes appear to have nothing to do with your assertion, before.

I again invite you to back your assertion that anyone on FPN requested compensation for expertise or appraisals and then complained about not being so compensated. 2nd chance.

Regards

david

My own opinion is that i am ashamed of the way the members have acted here, starting with post #25. I am more or less in agreement with the tenor of Glenn's comments.

This is my only comment on this. I won't respond any further.

Interesting discussion. It is hard to say who has a more valid point. I do agree with those arguing that a person should not feel self-conscious or obliged to "pay back" for advice here, even if lots of it is offered. The original poster did indeed state his intention to place the items on ebay straight away, and as he points out in response to criticism, he did contribute some "content" to the board in the form of informative debate. Technically speaking, he does not owe anyone anything: This is a public board, and people did not have to be helpful if they did not want to.

Still, my intuitive feeling is that something was not quite right -- maybe there was an intentional "luring" of expert opinions and time contributions with promises of private deals that did not happen. This is just the sense I get from reading between the lines; I might be wrong. But as soon as I read the original post even, I had the feeling that the person's intentions conflicted with the interests of those who were starting to help him.

Of course the bigger issue here is the expectations we have from board behaviour in general. Put simply, I think there is a difference between obligation and etiquette. The original poster did not have any obligations either to FPN or to any specific persons who helped him; he broke absolutely no FPN rules. So from this point of view, his behaviour was impeccable. But in terms of the implicit code of etiquette that has developed here among core members, he did not play according to its unspoken guidelines. And I think, understandably, this hurt and offended the members who do follow this etiquette.

I guess my personal opinion is that what the person in question did was not quite right, but neither is it right to reproach him for it...

I'd disagree. I think he was one of the more open posters and followed the etiquette guidelines more than most. The poster opened in his very first post with full disclosure that he was going to sell his pens on eBay but was hoping for some help in identification and price points. There was never any ambiguity about his aims. Full disclosure from the start.

It looked fine up until around the second page, where some disputes about identification took on a somewhat acid tone. After post #25 though, it seems the board became downright hostile to this new poster. Like you, I wondered too if maybe there were some backchannel deals gone bad, since I didn't see anything that would seem to indicate the sudden turning (except that FPN saved CC a potentially pricey Buy-It-Now mistake).

What of course caught my eye in the beginning was the related thread, which references this one, about how this guy deserved his lack of success on eBay and he should have sold here directly. I've never seen that kind of vindictiveness on FPN. There is always some berk over in the MB Brand Focus trying to liquidate his collection and, for all the venom usually in MB topics, these are quite civil. I'm not sure what was different with the dynamic here. Interesting to say the least.

I note you still have failed to provide evidence for your core assertions. That is interesting.

regards

david

I don't think this is right either.... let's think about this one. Every time I read your posts, I keep thinking you're reading a different thread by the mis- interpretation of what was written....

You said that someone wanted compensation for their advice. I cannot find anywhere in this thread where anyone said that "I want X amount of dollars for information I provided you". Several people made ridiculous requests to be gifted a pen (which I took as a "joke"), or suggested that the seller instead of ebay, offer pens to the board, or even make a partial donation to FPN, so what's wrong with that? I did not see where anyone asked to be compensated, directly for the advice they offered here. Which post does someone come out an say they want compensated for the advice or information they provided? please, let us know.

Now, in this post, you are trying to say how straightforward this guy was from the beginning, how his complete intent was to sell pens directly on eBay. However, as a reader of this thread from the beginning, I saw the BS from the start. This guy went on to make suggestions that he would entertain other offers, backchannel, then even extended the idea that he would entertain those offers with stipulation as to who he would sell to, I think it was in regards to establishing some form of relationship with the seller. How stupid is that.... I never heard of having to submit a resume to purchase something...

This guy sounds like a literary "artist" from the get go. No wonder he didn't disclose his "other" ebay ID, I bet that has some lovely feedback. I further knew we were dealing with a load of BS, when I read the description of the items he had for sale. Personally, I would think that if he was going to be straightforward, he would have worded his auctions different, sold under his existing eBay ID, etc... hopefully you get the picture.

Quite frankly, none of these pens hold much value to me. I recognize them for their $$$ value, but I have little interest in any of them. What I do have concern for is when my fellow collectors, friends, if you will, are involved in a thread, that they are being painted into the bad guys, when they all have established theirselves in the pen community, each in their own respect, and are made to look like the bad guys, with the posting of misinformation, and twisting of the truth.

As far as his eBay success, or lack thereof, I'm glad, It makes me feel good inside. I would have been even more happy, if some lucky collector would have scored those plums for $25 each, not to mention if the mustard and nassau were scored equally as reasonable. I don't think my feeling is one of vindictiveness, but more so of appreciation for Karma, that's all.

This guy was a momentary visitor. He got what he needed, and is gone, for good. He mined the site for information, and left town. I think a couple of the folks here, might feel "used" especially since it is easy to see that this guy used the site for significant financial gain, and felt no obligation to return the favor, in any way. The plums are one example, and I think he even hinted to the notion he was gonna send the pens off to be disposed of, either via donation or salvation army or something similar, but don't quote me on that, I will readily admit if I was incorrect on the last point.

I haven't spent any time with this thread up until now, and haven't read the entire 6 pages. However, I think I get the gist of it from reading the initial post and the last couple of pages.

To me, Rick's comment that I've highlighted is where I'm at on any topic like this. Whenever I see a thread that starts off the way this one does, I ignore it and move on. Frankly, I have no time for anyone who just breezes in to suck some information out of us with the intent on selling pens that have fallen in their laps. As far as I'm concered, let him throw them on eBay, as was his intent, and let the auction world work the way it works.

If a newbie comes along and wants to learn about pens because they're interested in them, that's another story. I'll take whatever time is necessary to help them along. That's how I got the scant information I have, from working these boards over time and getting to know the folks. That's what I think this board and others like Pentrace are about.

As for guys who troll in, post their "what's it worth?" message, and go away, my recommendation to all is to not respond to them at all.

Not to answer for him, but I took what happened here the same way. A lot of people have talked on here about how they had a "bad feeling" from the get go from this guy. Some members seem to have a bad feeling about the way some members handled it and what they expected. It maybe have not been spoken but I even got the feeling that people expected more from this guy than he gave. Some are giving opinions they felt this was going to go bad from the get go. You can't have the same people sharing OPINIONS, then pouncing on people forcing them to give out facts, when that person isn't even using known facts. Everything here is an opinion in my book, even what people think they should be priced at. The only fact involved is that he did nothing wrong according to this boards rules.

That being said, the quotes DO have something to do with his assertions in my OPINION. By suggesting that it would be courteous to offer some pens for sale on this site, while a suggestion, is a form of compensation. It's not a form of monetary compensation, I think that is where the confusion is setting in. His compensation was to offer them up on FPN.

If still not clear here's a direct quote.

"Look, i'm probably not in market for these at this point, but i offer- only in opinion- that if you plan to play here to tap the knowledge and insights of folks who are generous and willing to share, that perhaps it would be... courteous... to offer a few pens on the FPN board vs simply taking and taking in order to maximize your personal profits on another site. It is easy to take. It is tougher to give. It does seem pretty easy to ask to have those insights keep on comin', whilst placing hyperbolic ebay ads but offering... nothing... in the milieu from which you gain all your knowledge."

That RIGHT there is a suggestion or opinion (same thing at this moment) that you compensate this board by selling some of them here, based on the issue that FPN is giving you knowledge and you are giving NOTHING back to us. It wasn't a suggestion for compensation by offering them for less, just that you sell them here. It is only a suggestion, one he had the choice of following.

As for people making the statement that no one is complaining, that's bogus. What has the last 4 pages of this thread been, but if not complaining and bickering about this sellers actions.

Not to mention to continue to defend and poke at the fire every time someone makes an assertion just raises the issue back from the dead again. What is it going to take to drop this issue and be done with it. He did nothing wrong on this board according to the rules. We are at heart a repository of information. So what if he wants way to much money for the pens on eBay. We dont' see these type of threads EVERY time something from the benz collection comes up for auction. You know why, chances are those pens go for market value, what people are willing to pay for them, no matter how grossly overpriced they tend to be.

Lastly, for those saying that they wish upon him getting even lower prices than they are worth (there was someone who said they wished someone would have caught a plum at $25) is bordeing with this guy and lowers themselves to that level. To be upset because they think the seller is overcharging for the pens, but feel perfectly content when he possibly gets screwed out a lot of money is no different.

That's all I have to say. They are only my opinions. They will not be backed up with "facts" either at the request of any poster. I followed this thread from the beginning and felt only right at least voicing my OPINION on the events that happened here. I for one hope the guy gets what he wants for the pens. The market is going to pay what they are worth. Not to mention there are collectors out there not on FPN so all he did was probably hit another market.

-penguin

I fear you conflate thoughts and opinions with reality.

Again, please provide post in which one requests/expects compensation for his provision of expertise/appraisal and then complains when he fails to receive said compensation. That was, i believe, the assertion made which you appear to support.

I can have an opinion, you know, that the sun is made of green cheese. This might be, "only my opinion", which, i guess, i have a "right" to hold and no doubt might cherish dearly.

So, i simply request some evidence for you to back this particular opinion regarding compensation. I would have- i admit- a tough time providing evidence for my "opinion" that the sun is made of green cheese.

"Compensation" and Green Cheese. Two great tastes which go great together.

regards

david

Too, note how the fellow ignored the best of the insights and appraisal and expertise offered, when said insight, appraisal and expertise did not happen to match his... uhhh... goal set.

And note how the views of those- save i guess for Glenn- proved to be... correct. Strange when things work out that way. Cancelled ebay auctions. Missed reserves. Etc.

-d

Last word I'll say about this,

First I think we are arguing different points. Your arguing no one specifically said, I gave you info, now you give me personally a pen to compensate, correct? I agree there. My argument is that compensation was suggestion to give to the entire board.

I did give you one post where you yourself specifically suggested compensation to the board for what was given. It was NOT monetary compensation. If not, you tell me what that post was meant as then, if not a suggestion to give back to this board for information received. (which to me is a form of compensation). If you want to argue the semantics of the word compensation that's another thread.

Don't setup the rules though so that it is impossible to play by them and then claim victory. That's not a fair fight, or maybe that's not what we're going for here.

As for complaining, I ask you to argue that there has not been complaining on this board as to what this guy did. Once again I think your definition of complaining must be different than mine. (opinions I guess ).

I'll take by your silence on the matter of the rest of my points you agree. I stand by my statement still though that if Chrono came back here looking to sell, people would buy. So maybe this is all a moot point.

Lastly, realize while I enjoy this spirited debate as to what happened with this guy I don't take it personal with anyone I'm arguing with, as well I hope others don't take it personal. David I. in particular (as he seems to be the one I'm arguing) is a great guy, wealth of knowledge, person I've bought pens from in the past. Everyone is welcome to the opinions they have and their viewpoints. It's one of the great things about this board I think. Oddly though, I'm surprised the mods haven't just shut this thread down yet!

-penguin

So basically, you agree with what I say, you note you no longer back the assertion you did, and now that this is recognized, wonder why the thread is permitted to continue?

Fascinating.

regards

david

I wish there was an emoticon of a head exploding...

just keep poking that stick in the fire there though. Or maybe I am...who knows anymore.

I do stand by my convictions though that it was suggested the board as a whole be compensated by having pens listed and we as a board get first dibs (which would have been the end result, had said compensation have been followed). A moot point though as you argue your own point while ignoring the rest....fascinating...

-penguin

Try the headsmack

Or, even the brick wall headthump

Reasonably good approximation

d

AHHHHH...much better

no one is going to win this contest no matter how you look at it. We go too many people that cannot properly read a post and respond to it, allowing all of the points to sink in before replying. I still wish someone would have hit those plums for $25 each. I would feel a lot worse thinking a newbie collector hit them for the $500 or $750. That's my thoughts, feelings, opinion, and I still like it.

I too believe the sun is made of green cheese. David Isaacson told me this, I believe him, and he did not ask for any compensation on this matter. When I write my reference manual on this, and it goes on sale, I am going to donate a percentage of the proceeds to the FPN board, to help with the servers, since it was here where I found out this profound bit of information. I am also going to dedicate my reference to him.

I hope a few others can see the light subtle humor I have inserted here, at least other than perhaps me and Doc I...

Oh welll.....

Once again my experience as a physician comes in handy

regards

-d

WOOHOOOO...back to the humor phase. In all honesty..the moon is made of green cheese.

http://www.planetfusion.co.uk/~pignut/cheese.html

Hey, any of those cheeses left out for long enough will turn green. Maybe not tasty green, but green nonetheless.

The one thing that honestly amused me most about this though was getting to hit the quote button a few times and have a reply longer than most of the entirety of most of the threads i start. Easily amused I suppose.

The geometric (or is that exponential?) growth potential produced by that "quote" button can be... dangerous.

d

Not only does it turn green after a long time, it get as hard as a rock.