Billbock, you have priorities wrong.

Thank god I am surrounded by people who won't pretend to be your friend because you have an expensive watch or wear the latest designer clothes

Man, do we have our priorities wrong in this country

WHat happened to character and morality? Do they not matter anymore?

Wearing a shirt with a pocket is a crime.

If I see a "top executive" wearing that or even a collegue, I leave the meeting on the spot and find a new job.

I don't want to work with tasteless people.
====================

So what do you do when someone misspells "colleague"? I'd probably vomit on him.

Why ?



Where and when ?




For $200, you don't even have enough fabric for tailoring the pants.






These are not great watches.

Omega is a good value for money, middle range watches and seamaster and speemaster are sport watches so not wearable with a business outfit.

Rado and Modavo are cheap quartz watches and they only impress people who know NOTHING about watches. Worse = people who know about watches make fun of people wearing Rado because they fell in a marketing trap.


Great watches : Vacheron (12 000 euros), Patek (12 000 euros), Jaeger (4 000 euros).

Why are they great ? Because they are well made outside AND inside. They also have a great history and produce watches with complications.






Everything influence the way people look at you, the look (clothes, body and face) beeing the first thing.

If I buy nice stuff, it is not for people but for me as 99% of people would never spot that my master ultra thin from Jaeger costs 3 500 euros while much more would notice and be impressed by my watch if I wear a D&G (Potty Mouth) of $300.

Anyone with knowledge, taste and self confidence would prefer doing business with someone wearing a $2 000 suit than with someone wearing a $200 suit.

Why? Because if one can not even afford dressing, what can I expect from him ?






Do you see more lazy people among people wearing $100 shoes and $200 suit or among people wearing $1 000 shoes and $2 000 suit ?

Better = I don't work

I am a frog so I don't speak English.

By the way, I am eating water melon right now and this is my favorite fruit.

================

Dear Brad,

You are a capable, ambitious, intelligent young man. Your character is more important than any item you will ever own. I am sure all of the Enron executives had nice pens, cars, suits, mansions, etc. However, one guy was found dead in his Benz, with a suicide note in the car. The note could have been written with a solid gold MB, or a Bic, but who knows? The news did not mention the pen. His wife and children did not care about the pen, but about a life that was lost.

Here is my point: Use the pen that is comfortable for you. If it happens to be what others call "fancy", oh well, so what. Sometimes, people try to intimidate you by their lack of knowledge, or by trying to put you down for having what they perceive as expensive. Their problems are not yours.

What you write, and the accuracy of what you write, will be more important than the pen was used.

Be known for your character. "Brad is dependable, honest, creative. He takes instructions very well, is a team player, and contributes a lot to the team. With Brad on the team, we know an assigned project will be completed in a timely manner, and with great attention to detail." Something like that.

=============

My favourite fruit as well. What is a frog? And no, I do not believe your comments about shirt pocket, but I do think you are funny.

Edited because I got it, you are French. More grandeur than the US.

bilbok, you're awesomely funny. At first I thought you were joking, but since you mentioned that you were French, I'm not so sure. Regardless, your posts are great.

You can never be sure over the Internet but I think you are responding to a parody

"I think in most situations, a BIC shows someone that is comfortable being an individual contributor and is not going anywhere." -

But I still bring a BIC red ballpoint for emergency situations.


Yes indeed, I have a couple in each briefcase. JD

Thanks.



So why do you need a fountain pen ? Use a cristal bic.




Beeing well dressed and having good taste is not moral ?

Giving $ to good tailors, good shoemakers and skilled workers who spend 20 hours on a garments they make with love and proud is not moral ?

Is really buying industrial cheap clothes, made by exploited 3d world labor who spend 2 minutes on a garment a sign of higher morality ?

Please explain because i don't catch your moral.

Frog = French

Please explain because i don't catch your moral.
===============

The point is not to judge a person by appearance only. Of course a person should be well-dressed, but that is not all. A dictator can be very well dressed, and so can the Pope. However, the exploited worker you mention, may have stronger morals than the dictator. Mother Theresa may have never owned a Chanel suit and Fendi fur, but we know she had good morals and good character.

We don't want the original poster to get the idea that appearance is more important than character.

This topic amuses me. Especially bilbok, even though I agree with some of the things he says, especially about wanting nice things for me, not for people who know nothing,

However, the shirt pocket thing is a sylistic standard that is different in the US and France, and it is amusing to watch people describe it as having no taste whereas in the US, you are hard-pressed to find a businessman without a pocket on their shirt, no matter what level or seniority or taste.

Also, yes, pens do matter in business. I am only 17, but my father is a succesful businessman, and it is all with the impression. When you need to go to venure capitalists for money, they would like to see you wearing a nice suit (maybe not a boutique brand hand made and tailored for you suit, but at least an expensive and high quality Armani suit that has been tailored to fit you properly). It gives off many signals, one of which is that you have done something in the past that earnt you a lot of money, and that something was probably business. It lends trust to you, as they see what they percieve as your financial (and therefore the companies financial) succes. It makes people want to give you more of their money if they trust you will invest it well.

If you are not hunting for money, then it still makes a nice impression, and that always counts. If people see you as stuck up or cocky, that is too bad, as most people will not. And if you are doing anythin that deals with clients, they will percieve you as succesful, and, again, therefore more trustworthy with tehir business.

-Nkk

The person who judge WRONGLY people by appareance is the guy who told that $400 was a show.

I don't see why we go on moral.

Of course, a well dressed person can be as bad as a badly dressed person (though he is likely to be more educated).

This was not the point.

The point was : a guy who wears $400 shoes or $2000 watch makes "a show" and so will make client go away.

$400 shoes are not more showy than a $200 pen.

Sadly, most people have a pocket in France too.



And it shows you have good taste, a culture (you know how one should dress), a knowledge (you know how to select a good quality among the huge range of choices), and independance of mind (you know what marketing traps to avoid and stick to the best values) and that you enjoy life (you are not a boring stingy dude who saves up for his grave)

You can buy expensive stuff, quality stuff and remain poorly dressed if you have no taste and knowledge.




Logical.

Who wants to give his money to a guy who looks poor and worse who doesn't understand the importance of the image in the society ?

If the image was not important, we could all work in $30 track suits instead of cheap $500 suits.

But of the image is important, why sticking to $500 suits ?

Actually, I'm not impressed by any technology that someone brings to a meeting. I'm much more interested in what they bring in their minds. And a nice FP says something about the person to me, esp if it's NOT a Montblanc. Anyone can buy a Treo or an IPhone, pr Blackberry, or whatever. It doesn't take any tech savvy to go into an AT&T or Verizon store and plunk down your money.

But it takes guts to come to a meeting and really take notes, listen, ask questions, and show that you're thinking. I could care less about how many time some guy's phone buzzes because his buddy is SMS'ing him about some dribble or whatever.

Skip

I agree. In the long run you should jduge someone by their actions, not dress. But the point here is the impresion. Why not MB? That made some sort of an impression, and that is what everyone her eis talking about. IF you are a genius, but dress poorly for your first meeting with your boss, that is what he will see of you. So when time comes around to the boss finding someone who can represent the technology well to investors, even though you may be the smartest, you will not be chosen over the second smartest one if the second is better dressed and will reflect on the company better.

And, why not MB? So what if they decide to patronize a brand that overall has sold out to luxury items, but still prduces fine pens?

And, those SMS messages are, many times, the person across from you telling the person next to you to do something relevant to the meeting, or to ask a question about info that not everyone in the room knows. This is especially if there are two competing entitiies in the meeting, or just in general becuase there will always be backchannel communication that not everyone involve knows about but is still painfully relevant to the discussion at hand.

-Nkk

I do not believe business settings care about what pens you use as long as they are not gaudy. A Pelikan 800-1000 or a black Sheaffer's OS Balance would be better than a Krone Monstrosity.

I beg to differ, Rado makes good watches at decent prices. They have automatic watches with ETA 25 jewel movements, including ones made from high tech ceramics that are virtually scratch proof.

Granted, they don't command as much "image" as Omega, Rolex or Breitling....but that doesn't mean they don't make good watches.

See, you equate a good watch with the price tag.....I equate a good watch with style and reliability.

One more thing....I have a gold Rolex I inherited that I hardly wear because I prefer my more stylish Rados to the tacky gold Rolex that makes me look twice my age!

You know what else? Am done arguing with your arrogant behind. Go dress in suits made out of money for all I care.

As for me, am happier having money but not flashing it in people's faces. People with money who flash it in other's faces are insecure people. As for me, am very secure in my status, so I don't need to do that

The laziest people I've met wear the $1K shoes and $2K suits. No question.

Besides, if you're in a business that's actually producing something worthwhile, whether it be goods or information, you're not wearing a suit. If I showed up to one of my old corporate jobs in a suit, I'd have sent a sign that I was interviewing on my lunch hour.

I have much more respect for someone who pays $250 for a pair of shoes that will last a lifetime than a $2500 pair which won't survive the season.

Most days I don't wear a watch at all. Half the time when I do I take it off and leave it on my desk anyhow. I use an $80 Fossil that was a gift from someone dear to me and wouldn't trade it for a dozen Tag whatevers. I haven't seen an expensive wristwatch I've liked the looks of in ... ever, actually. Every watch I see on a billboard and most of the ones in the supposedly finer shops are simply hideous to my eye. (To be fair, most of the cheap ones are hideous, too. It's not just sentiment that moves me to wear the one watch I think is handsome)

Now if you'll excuse me, I must go to my studio, where I'll remove my $350 motorcycle boots and wear my $80 sandals. I'll do my level best not to spill a $12 bottle of ink on my $40 shirt while refilling the $20 pen than none of my $50-$1000 pens can replace. If anyone needs to get in touch with me, send a message to my $400 smartphone that I'll be lucky to get $40 for by the end of next year.

The fact that you did not wear a suit was due to the corporate environment that your boss or comapny created. That does not necessarily mean it reflects the norm, even though it may seem the norm to you. May I also point out that you live in California, which has a generally more relaxed environment than the traditional business districts of the US, mainly North Eastern states. (That was not a bash on CA or you, it is jsut historically the western states have been more relaxed with their dress and style, and have had the artsy businesses, whereas the NE has had the banker/Large company corproate office type businesses)

As for cost of shoes, I have no idea why you think that every pair of expensive shoes will fall apart. Also, I agree. I, too, have much more respect for someone who pays $250 for a pair of shoes that will last a lifetime than a $2500 pair which won't survive the season. However, I have even more respect for the person who buys $2,500 shoes that last a lifetime, look stylish, and are made of the best materials possible.

Also, your personal taste in watches has absolutely nothing to do with quality. Just becase you do not like the Penerai watches or Patek Phillipe watches does not mean that they are bad quality. In fact, they are better quality than the Fossil (and, yes, I do own two $80 Fossil watches). Not to say that the Fossil is bad quality, because it is very good for the price range, but it just cannot compete with watches 100x its price. Personally, I hate the way a lot of Rolex watches look. They are too gaudy. But they are still made well and to last a lifetime, and more. Much like pens.

Latly, you say that the laziest people you meet are those that are dressed expensively? Why? Is it because they decided to make their life about trading oil, or something else that is immediately necessary to the economy, instead of physical labor, that they are lazy? Or is just you only met a small subsection of expensively dressed people, and they happen to be lazy, and you made a generalization from that?

-Nkk

My 2 cents on the subject. I have been a business man for more than 40 years. During that time, I have certainly been up and I have been down too. My career started in accounting, went to business management and then to retail store ownership. Now I manage a small engineering company. Many years ago I received some very good advice from a valued mentor. He said I should always dress as well as I could afford. He meant quality and not flash. It was better to have one good pair of dress shoes than 2 pairs of poor quality ones. Same thing with suits and shirts. He advised me to be very careful with accessories such as ties, watches, rings and cuff links. Here again he advised me to go with understated quality. I have not always followed this man's advice - to my detriment. It seems to me the best way to approach the subject of fountain pens in business is to be conservative. Anything that is distracting is not in your best interest. People go astray in business by trying to be noticed for the wrong things. Be remembered for your honesty, dependability, knowledge and work ethic. Not by the size or glamor of the pen you use. My experience in business is that nothing goes unnoticed. People generally like to do business with other people that they trust and how you appear goes a long way to starting that trust to develop. We should not judge a book because of the cover, and yet, there are many millions of books purchased annually solely on that factor alone. Flash and bling have places in our lives, just not at the business conference table. Just my opinion. /Craig

I hope noone minds me chiming in - I have been following this thread with interest.

Background - I'm 30 years old, a junior doctor, and live and work in London.

My answer to the OP question would be - "it depends"! It depends on, amongst other things:
- the nature of the ur workplace and the existing moires about so called "luxury items"
- ur boss, and whether he personally would give a monkey's or not about the brand of ur pen (or suit, or shoes or watch)
- ur colleagues, and whether or not they're playing "keeping up with the Jones's" or whether they just get on with their job.

This discussion has segued into a (not impertinent) discussion about style/class/taste/fashion. And well it might.

Now my opinion, not that anyone was asking, is that theres a very definite difference between style, class and fashion, but that often they all inform each other.

Dressing well - which to my mind means neat, well cut, well fitted clothes/shoes made out of good materials, tastefully but not ostentatiously coordinated, is not something that has to be achieved by spending $1000s or by selecting only brands advertised in glossy magazines and on billboards. It cannot necessarily be done cheaply either. And I agree very much that having the discernment and refinement of taste to do this well is far more important and more indicative of your overall worth as an employee, if you're in the sort of workplace where worth and ability is judged in this way, than the brands you have selected to help you achieve this.

Now, a caveat here, just to be honest, my tastes run to the expensive, but noone would really know that to look at me, unless they wanted to analyse the cut and cloth of my suit or shoes or watch. My clothes present a relatively blank canvas, a clean slate, my watches and pens are expensive, but wouldnt necessarily draw attention, not in a hospital anyways!

And, in any case, as we all know, the really rarified and exclusive brands will only be known to those that have taken the trouble to learn, really learn, about the object they are purchasing and find the few tailors/cobblers/watchsmiths, that can give them the truest and purest examples of that object that they, for whatever reason, desire. A label dropping contest, for those that really care, is never on the cards, but an appreciation for expertise certainly is.

Let us not fool ourselves that the mass produced sacks made by Armani, the automated movements made by Zenith for their Rolex shells, the hubcaps made by Breitling and whatever else have you, are what worth/merit and taste are to be based on.

Again, my personal opinion - your suit/watch/pen should do nothing more than represent who you are, not what look you've gone for or what fashion you're following. And who you are, in a corporate/professional environment, should be nothing more than a neat fellow who is so capable at his/her job that you are able to overlook the neatness of his/her attire and just appreciate the brilliance of their work.

Apologies for my electronically typed incontinence! I hope I didnt bore or offend anyone.

Regards

Raj

PS - I have to confess, I don't care for shirt pockets, or short sleeved shirts, either! Though their practicality cannot be denied (I do not wear a suit jacket as I am still too junior), they do, for me, spoil the lines of an immaculately tailored shirt.

Every? No of course. Please forgive my hyperbole. There does seem to be a price point beyond which increases change the focus from materials and craftsmanship to appearance. When looking for sunglasses, for example, if you want ones that are likely to deflect a rock that's been kicked up from a spinning wheel in front of you, you're more likely to find what you're looking for in the $75-$100 range than in the $750-$1000 range. In that price point, the makers cater to those who wouldn't be caught dead anywhere that rocks might fly, and who certainly would never wear the same pair of sunglasses for more than a month anyhow, so why bother with durability?

The most expensive pair of shoes I've ever owned (nowhere near the $2500 mark) was great for a couple of years, then when I went to take this, my favorite pair, to be resoled, I was told that it could not be done. I had purchased a disposable item. My $200 Red Wings are on their fourth set of soles and have survived two motorcycle accidents. Not that they're much to look at....

I know that's an apples/oranges comparison, but "built to last a lifetime" can be had for a small number of hundreds of dollars and don't have to be made in a third-world country, where "built to last a season" is becoming much more common in the upper price ranges.

This is my experience with pens as well. The more I spend on a pen, the less likely it is to write when I take it out of the box. The makers know they're making jewelry that a small minority will bother to try writing with. It's disgusting and there are a few manufacturers that prove exceptions, but there it is.



True.

[edit to add: ...but anyone that would walk out of a meeting with me because I'm wearing a Fossil watch deserves the services of someone less talented than myself]



The latter, I'm sure. I was schooled with the children of the wealthy, and still count a number as acquaintances. Their parents, having earned their millions, generally had and still have much more modest tastes.

See what happens when you feed a troll?

I have to agree and I also have a corporate blackberry. I work in technology and every so often someone notices my use of a fountain pen. although where I work its really just a disposable pen even for managers in the 200$+ salary range. Its not a status symbol so they don't care. If it was a status symbol I'm sure it would be a different story.

For the love of gawd, at least you have a pen. In the military, you were thought an incompetent idiot if you couldn't produce a black ballpoint on short notice. Now in academia and industry, I am continually amazed but otherwise bright people who show up for a meeting or conference and don't have anything to write with! Did they think the handouts were going to cover anything they might think about or want to remember? I'm not sure what the reason is, but it seems ridiculous to me that they come with no way of capturing any thoughts they might have or notes they want.

Just agreeing to everything said here.

It seems that although Mr. Splicer and I disagree on if it is worth to buy the expensive items, we have agreed on it, too, at least in a way.

Also, about the modest tastes, I see what you are saying. However, from my observation, expecially with suits, you get two choices once you hit a certain price point. You can pay more money for a designer that, although very well made, is still not a lifetime item and expensive becuase it says Ralph Lauren or Calvin Klein. Or, you could go an Armani outique, pay the same $2000, and get a well made suit that is made of the highest material, and also stitched as opposed to heat sealed like the seams of the 'stylish' suits are.


On a different subject, I never understood how people could go to a meeting or class without a pen. People go to my physics class or, even worse, english, and then dont take notes due to the lack of a writing instuments. Personally, I feel unprepared for anything and everything if I do not have a pen with me.

-Nkk

I've personally never seen a decent suit for less than 800 USD. You can of course find suits for at any price point. Like the old quote: "A man can be happy with any woman, as long as he does not love her.", you can be happy with any suit as long as you do not care how you look. Mens Wearhouse will be happy to outfit you in a nice fused suit for 99 USD. Don't expect to mingle with executives in it, but I'm sure it'll hold your little red book just fine.

Actually, it seems as though Mr Nkk and I agree on most things, but disagree on how we make our generalizations. I too am pleased to spend money to get high quality durable things. We may disagree on the particular items we like to buy, but the principle is the same. I have a chip on my shoulder about cheap goods sold at high prices with a "name". Good quality is still available in many areas, but I think now more than ever a great deal of people are just as happy to buy lousy quality at high prices, and wield the price tags rather than the quality as status symbols.

I wonder why this is so. A fountain pen is not suited to be out in the field. When I was in the army, I used a disposable ball point as there was so much dust everywhere on the paper etc that would hinder the smooth workings of a fountain pen. Not to mention the extreme heat and the times, we needed to prone quickly in mud.

Then when other collegues came for briefings, they often forget to bring a pen, borrowed mine and left with it. In the end, I tied it to a string and attached the other end to my shirt.

I have a suspicion this is just the strong tendency of any military to respect tradition.

The best way to advance in a career is to excel. If you excel and use a fountain pen, you'll do the rest of us proud.

Doug

I recently had a meeting will a well travelled professor. I was taking notes with my Lalex 1938 (not expensive but pretty enough to be noticed amongst all the biros) and the lady sitting next to me was using an FP that I had given her a few weeks before. At the end of the meeting he made a comment about the fact that he was using an ordinary biro for reasons of practicality - nice pens leak in shirt pockets aren't up to the air travel unless you have time to care for them....

I thought it was a nice gesture that he had noticed our pens and was yearning for the pens he no longer carried with him.

I was always known in work for having the good pens - a quality writing instrument shows you have respect and consideration for what you are doing the same as any other tool you use for work. Very few will say but many will notice that you don't have a cheap and nasty in your hand, especially in a business meeting where everyone is trying to be noticed.

Lovely, though in some circumstances, that would be considered a career-limiting comment.
Chris

Dr Ozzie- IMHO you started it because your first reply to bilbok was intimidating, he was merely stating his opinion. A starved person in Africa's famine probably thinks a $100 shoe is sacrilege and so another individual might feel that a $400 shoe is not a good one because he is used to better. So I would say its inappropriate to claim another member's spending habits or opinion outrageous- see why this thread has been started in the first place? Also, Omega/Brietling/Rolex are not haute horologie, they are actually halfway from the top, but that's not our subject.

Its all very relative and this is why I feel really bad for all the well off kids nowadays who have to be apologetic for what they buy or own.

The idea is not whether to do something or not, its if you can do it with sensibility, here are some examples:

- I sometimes would look in a meeting at the CEO of a top foreign bank sporting a $2 bic pen and think to myself come on man, you could manage to attire yourself with a better pen.

- If someone is getting their first job as a cash teller at a bank, they should leave their Montblanc at home- it might appear to be out of place, preparing vouchers or filling out deposit slips.

- If you are going to an impoverished area in the Middle East or Africa dress conservatively to allow for local customs, religion or modesty, when going out to a trendy restaurant or bar where everyone dresses as they please then feel free to do so.

Ultimately, people will buy whatever their heart pleases but whether or not they will carry it around or hide it at home in shame of receiving comments or stigma is another question.. I think the best thing to do is to dress according to the occasion.

I suspect it's because they've been taught to write to a very low standard. They just aren't very comfortable writing for any reason.

Haha

Just to add to the conversation. Made a small sale with a client yesterday and when it was time to sign the paperwork I pulled out my yellow Lamy Safari. Client looked at it and said I had one of those fancy pens! The she then took her time signing her name neatly. We had a short conversation about pens and moved on. It was a casual meeting in a casual atmosphere but it's another way to bond with the client. It's fun for me and a conversation topic with the client. I'm the guy with the fancy pen. Anything to stand out from the other sales reps is a good thing.

If someone notices I'm using a FP. I just say " I like the way they write" As a friend of mine says, that's why they make chocolate and vanilla ice cream.

LOL - the signals it sends to me are "mobster" or "crooked politician". That's what comes of growing up in New Jersey...

My new suit's cost only $400. And I bought it at Men's Wearhouse.

You have been croocked as it worths $100.

You can buy a $1500 suit for $400 if you know where to buy and are lucky.

Nice shoes are not designed to survive for accidents.

They are made to last forever or so in normal use.

What "last" means ?

It means that they keep their original shape, the leather will NOT crack or make big ugly wrinkles, the sewing will not break...after 20 years.


BUT this implies that you take care of your shoes :
- you use shoetree
- you put cream on them
- you use a good polish and know how to use it
- you NEVER wear the same pair 2 days in a row

Buy $1 000 shoes, take care of them and they will outlive you.

Buy $200 shoes and after a few weeks, they look like slippers, have no shape, the leather has ugly wrinkles.

And last but not least, good shoes support your body so they play a role in your health.

On topic with business pens and do they matter. Where I work (a University) there is definitely some politics. That being said I use whatever pen fits my fancy. My thought is that if someone is going to look down on me simply based on the pen I'm using, that's person's opinion to me really is moot. I'm an entry level guy here right now, and I have had people notice my pens, more so for the oddity of it all. Lucky for me as well, my supervisor and his supervisor are pretty laid back and aren't all about the titles and power trip deal.

I did have the director ask me once why I used a FP and I explained the reasoning to him. He was pretty intrigued and said he'd have to stop down sometime to try one out and see if it was something he wanted to get into. Never did though!

On the topic of nice shoes. Yeah buy nice expensive shoes, in the end they are cheaper and you'll look better! I have a few pairs of nice expensive shoes that I take car of and they look like new still. Heck even the cheaper ones I have I take really good care of and they look like new still.

-penguin

Well put Scott. JD