Is there a cataloged record somewhere, of all the Sheaffer models that were made with the white dot on the flat top of the cap, as in the BHR on the picture above? I would really like to know which materials, colours and trims these pens existed in.

I know they were mostly BHRs and then later plastic in black and jade, before they moved the white dot to be above the clip.

Were there any other colours/materials? And were any made with nickel trim (or any other silver-coloured metal)? I have seen chased HR Sheaffers with nickel trim, but the non-chased always seem to be gold.

Thanks,
QM2

I've seen Black and Pearl lifetime flat tops with the inlay dot.

Neat, I never have. Was it produced at the same time as the black and jade plastic? What colour trim did it have?

With the exception of ringtops, I have never seen a white dot anywhere on a flat top except on the top. I do not think they put them above the clip until they went to the balance design.

edit: It is possible that some lifetime flat tops did not come in gold filled or solid gold trim, but again, I have never seen one. The only lifetime flat top colors I have seen are the black and pearl, black and jade. Again, there may be other colors, but I don't recall ever seeing any.

Hmmm... But I've seen them. Both Sheaffer Flat-tops without any dot at all, and with the dot above the clip. Am I imagining things? Of course I can't seem to find an image online when I need it!


edit: okay, found the "evidence"



from Richard Binder's website:
http://www.richardspens.com/?page=ref_info/flat-tops.htm

I have seen a flat-top jade or two with the dot above the clip, and also a different model that I can't remember now. I think this may have been a newer model though, some sort of nostalgia-type series. I was not interested in these pens then, so did not pay attention.

Hmmm I believe the hump clips with the flat ball were used from the mid to late 1930's, well after the balance design had been introduced. I have seen very few pens from that time but none with the with dot above the clip.

Sheaffer flat tops without the white dot were not lifetimes, though some of them may have had lifetime nibs installed at the time or at a later date. I was not including any of them in my speculations. Non lifetime pens did often have white metal trim.

Edit:
I just checked out the pen cap that you show and it says it is a ladies pen. That was the exception I mentioned earlier. The difference is that the pictured ladies pen had a pocket clip (unusual for a ladies pen) instead of a ring. Richard also ID-ed the pen as being from 1939. Ladies pens had the white dot on the side because the ring top would have covered it if it were on the top.

A large number of the radite Flat Tops I've seen have gold colored trim. My jade ones do, and the same with the pencils. Also the black and pearl ones I've seen have gold colored trim too (both the long and the short sizes for that matter).

This image is of what is believed to be a quite late production piece, manufactured well into the Balance era, and which is not catalogued.

regards
david

David, that may be true but this is identified by Richard as a ladies pen. Ladies pens did have the white dot on the side because the (usual) ring top would have obscured it if it had not been on the side.

Hi,

This issue of size/"ladiness" is separate from the ring issue. There were lady's-sized pens from the catalogued white dot era that do not have white dot on side, as during the catalogued era the clip ran to the top. This late production piece (in image) has flat ball clip

regards
d

Paging Roger W. ...

There might also be further information on Roger's website: http://www.sheafferflattops.com/

Has anyone here seen any examples of pre-Balance flat-tops that have the White Dot on the side?

Best,
Summer

Click to view attachment

David, I don't understand what you mean by the cataloged era. This pen has a clip that does not go to the top nor does it have a flat ball.

The discussion was whether any flat tops had a white dot above the clip. I said I did not know of any except (ladies) ring top pens.

I know that Parker made flat top ladies pens with both ring tops or clips, I presume Sheaffer offered the same option.

The clip from the flattop pen showed with the white dot just above the clip is a mid era Balance clip from around 1936-37. The Flattop in this case is "late production" ie probably produced around this time out of old stock. Whether the white dot was above the clip to conform with that of the Balance or because Sheaffer only had ladies ringtop style caps left is anyones best guess, but I'd lean towards the latter.

Hi,

We might be caught up in semantics and missing each other's points. So, let's forget any pen picture seen so far and step back a couple feet...

1) Sheaffer catalogued flat tops through their last appearance in a big known catalog which introduced the Balance, which is a 1929-30-ish catalog (it is not with me to check the printing date). As has been cited elsewhere, that catalogue has cropped up witha 1933 order sheet in it as well, and common belief now is that no catalogue is known between those two dates. Great Depression effect perhpas.

2) TBOMK, no flat-top Sheaffer- save for ringtops- as shown in any catalogue has white dot on side. Those clip-top pens that are white dot show the dot usually on very the top of pen, sometimes on bottom. Thus, all catalogued white dot clip-pens, even lady's size, do not have white dot above clip, at least above clip on side of pen (as i guess dot on top of pen still is above clip, but you know what i mean)

3) The pen that prompted this discussion has a white dot on side of pen above clip. It is not a pen that has been shown in any catalogue brought to light yet, though i do recognize things can be out there i've not yet seen.

4) The pen that prompted this discussion has features marking it one of those evil "late" flat-tops produced during the Balance era and not know from any Sheaffer literature, save perhaps a model code from the occasional stickered example which might appear.

regards

david

We were indeed missing each others points, which were pretty much the same, just from different levels of understanding. I have not seen the written material you to which you refer, I only know what I have seen.

Early Lifetime flat tops had white metal trim per Sheaffer literature and examples.

--Daniel

Yeppers. Have quite the pile lying about. Still, have not seen a plastic flat-top yet with white trim. That would be cool.

Addm- well, if one counts the "truncated" Juniors, though i tend to separate them from "flat-top" per se, i s'pose one then finds white trim.

d

This is incorrect. Sheaffer made flat top Lifetime pens for years before the White Dot was added.


As noted above, some Lifetime pens had white metal trim.


To be precise, the exception you mentioned was for ringtop pens: "With the exception of ringtops...".

--Daniel

Most lady's Sheaffer Lifetimes with White Dots had the dot on the bottom of the barrel.

--Daniel

Yes, but not pens with pocket clips.

--Daniel

David was referring to the fact that there are no known catalogs showing White Dot pens with clips that do not go all the way to the top. The pen you show isn't a Lifetime pen, and it is cataloged.

Note that the bottom pen pictured appears to be a marriage of parts from two different models.

--Daniel

I don't recall a catalog showing a flat top clip pen with a White Dot on the bottom. Let me know if you can supply specifics.

--Daniel

I also don't recall a catalog showing flat top clip pen with a white dot on the bottom. For that matter, offhand (catalogues not with me), i don't recall seeing the white dot anywhere on the clip pens in catalog (as image).

My comments you cite point out the following.

1) No catalogue shows a flat top clip pen with white dot on the side (we appear to agree).

2) Those clip-top pens that are white dot show (the pens show, not the catalogues) the dot on top or bottom of pen, based on my recollection. My sentence was not intended to suggest catalogues illustrate the white dot anywhere. Perhaps the proximity of two sentences meant to be independent provided impression of that false linkage.

Now, i need to go back and see if the clip pens do show the white dot on the bottom. Thought i'd seen a couple

d

As you suspected, I assumed you were referring to the catalog depictions for the reasons cited, and also because you didn't include the above-clip location. That is, you wrote


...not...




I've seen many, but the caps also have dots, strongly indicating that the barrels were intended to be paired with ringtop caps.

--Daniel

Dots are shown on top of cap of Lifetime clip pens in catalogs.

--Daniel

Yep. I'd made the point that side-dot clip-pens are uncatalogued beasts. Then i moved to the notion that flattop clip lifetime pens which appear in catalogues have their dots Top or Bottom. Didn't see need to reprise the dot-on-side thing.

Glad that was clarified.
-d

By and large the catalogues do not show where the white dot is at all on flattops since flattops are shot straight on. Any catalogued flattop would have the dot on the top for a clip pen and on the bottom for a ring top. There would only have been need for one white dot per pen so clip pens with a dot on the bottom are safe to say marraiges with a ring top barrel. All side mounted white dots are late models that would not have been in any catalogue. The sole exception to the sidemount is the J74TR which was a short quill ring top pen with no other place to put a dot (this is also the only catalogue reference to a "dailer" pen though "dailer" balances are not uncommon).

Flattop lifetimes came standard in black (hard rubber and radite) or jade and later in the run as DeLuxe which is black and pearl. There are prototypes in royal blue of which I know of two examples and I believe the Bourus auction had one in a cream color (don't have time to verify the Bourus auction (I might even be mis-spelling his name)).

Roger W.

Um... wow. I did not expect the topic to evoke this kind of debate, but it certainly did yield interesting and useful information!

I think that my original questions of (1) what models existed with the white dot inlaid on the flat-top cap, and (2) did any of them come in white-metal trim, have been largely answered in the course of this, so thank you very much everyone.

Could somebody tell me where I can find the early Sheaffer catalogue that everyone here mentions? And do I understand correctly that Sheaffer simply stopped cataloging their pens at some point?..



Thank you Daniel, now I can begin trying to hunt one down in HR with nickel (I assume) trim.



Oh?... Hmmm...



Thank you, Roger.

So, I can count 6 models with the inlaid flat-top dot :
1. hard rubber: black, available in white-metal trim (only black? no red or anything else funky?)
2. plastic: black
3. plastic: jade
4. plastic: black and pearl ("delux")
5. plastic: royal blue (prototype only)
6. plastic: cream (prototype only)

If I got it wrong, or this is not a complete list, please do correct me.

And what is the Bourus auction?


QM2

I don't think it's been stated that there are black hard rubber Lifetime pens with White Dots and white metal trim. Early Lifetime pens had white metal trim, but the White Dot did not appear until after the standard trim was changed to gold filled. It is possible that leftover stock of earlier varieties had white metal trim and were factory retrofitted with White Dots, though this is speculation.

--Daniel

Oh I see, I misunderstood. Hmm so most likely no such animal then.

Well, it will be something to keep an eye out for at the next show I go to, in case they did make a few in the manner you described.


QM2

Just came across another example of the dot on the side. Sheaffer Lifetime Lady, black and pearl, circa 1924.
from this website:
http://www.vintagefountainpensinc.com/pens.php?page=3

Yep, because it is a ringtop.

Just for kicks. Here is a modest bunch of Sheaffer's i picked up all at once a couple years ago. I admit it did end up boosting my core collection of Flat-tops just a bit



And another peek at that pile

Yes, but from what I understood via this thread, it is different from the earlier ringtops that have the dot on the bottom of the barrel, right?..



That is very impressive. I will take all the CHRs please, thanks : )

Would have to pull some catalogues, but NOT sure about that.

-d

|
v




?..

Daniel might be referencing Lady Sheaffer Lifetime Flat Tops with CLIPS? I will defer that point to him.

-d

The Black and Pearl is not circa 1924 as B & P came out in 1928. The dot went down on the side after 1930 which is an interesting deviation from it being on the bottom. I think it was an attempt on the flattops remaining in production to conform to the balance white dot location. There are no catalogues with flattops that have the dot on the side as flattops were last catalogued in June 1930. Even the special October 1931 roto section does not have flattops in it. The last flattop ad I have, not doing a retro comparison, is March 1929. So, best to my knowledge, you will not find any documentation, outside possibly the Sheaffer archives, showing the dot on the side of a flattop (aside the one exception previously noted the J74TR which has no other place to put a dot for the time as mid barrel dots came much later).

Roger W.

Roger W, I only now noticed your last reply to this thread. Thanks for that information. What you are saying is what I had originally thought when starting the thread. I know that late production flat-tops with the dot above the clip existed, simply because I've seen them. It is useful to know the year this happened. But Sheaffer's flaky cataloging and model-naming system can be frustrating when trying to research its production and design history.

The one thing I am still confused about, is the issue of the ringtop.

Can the ringtops without a dot on the side, be assumed to have the dot on the bottom of the barrel? Or were they dot-less? Or did this vary according to year of production?

If somebody can clarify this, I'd appreciate it.

Yes, a lifetime ringtop, baring a dot on the side, would certainly have had a dot on the bottom of the barrel - what I would call the common or normal location of that indicator for a ring top.

Roger W.

Roger means "...barring a dot on the side..." (that is, not having a dot on the side).

--Daniel

Yup, that's what I thought he meant : )

Don't know why, but I just find those inlaid dots on top of the cap and bottom of barrel so darn sexy, especially on the black and on the jade models. I am really hoping now that I can make it to the NY/NJ pen show in September and hand-pick a couple.

Thanks once again everybody for answering this barrage of questions!

Daniel is quite right - barring (two r's just looked wrong at that moment). Sometimes the ommission/or addition of one letter is just not to be tolerated - a little humor meant by that.

I find the dot on the side just fascinating. I have a few around...

Roger W.

Gotta have a pile of those lying about somewhere... unless blew 'em out from the "basement" last year.

Glad to hear you will be at NY Show this year. After missing just one, i hope to attend again this year. Fun show.

d