I know that historically, most practical writing was done with a straight penholder/fountain pen, and that the oblique holder was invented for Ornamental Spencerian and Copperplate to more easily align the tines so that the slit was parallel to the angle of the writing.

Given these two facts, when an individual way back when used a straight pen holder for Spencerian/Copperplate, at what angle did they align their pen to write - (nearly) parallel to the slope, or at some 45 degree-ish angle like that used with italic?

I felt at one point that my best writing was done with the slit in the range of almost perpendicular to, or at a 45 degree angle to the slope, but that is with a stiff pen like the Safari. I thought I read in some sources (posts here and at IAMPETH) that one should angle the paper and one's arm such that the proper alignment can be achieved, but that seems quite uncomfortable to me. I have already modified my writing style to use my shoulders rather than my fingers with great results, but this feels like a bigger hurdle to jump.

I have two reasons for asking this question.

1. I am interesting in learning Spencerian script for hobbyist purposes. (I will eventually get an oblique holder, but I happen to have a straight holder now, and I am looking at the Ackerman pump pen)

2. I have semi flexible chinese pens and I want to get the most out of them - my handwriting is satisfactory now, but I hope to make it more consistent and eventually add artistic flourishes. Something on the order of what I saw here towards the bottom: http://jp29.org/itbasics.htm
Yeah, its a long journey from where I am now, but I feel like I could accomplish that given some years of consistent practice. I did take the time to learn DVORAK keyboarding, after all.

Thanks in advance for replies.

Copperplate is written at a slope of 55 degrees and Spencerian at 52 degrees from the horizontal.

It is possible to write simulated versions with a stiff nib held at more-or-less the same angle as for italic - but they will always be simulations, and second best.

With both these styles of writing, a flexible nib is necessary, pointed as closely as possible to the slope line, in order that the tines open evenly when pressure is applied.

To achieve this with a straight dip pen or fountain pen, is possible but, as you've pointed out, quite uncomfortable. The paper has to be turned anti-clockwise to a considerable extent, and the hand is twisted to the right with the elbow held to the side. Finally, the paper is positioned to the right of your body, along the writing surface.

In my opinion, if you are intending to learn Spencerian (or Copperplate) script, then it is much easier and better to begin with an oblique holder and good flexible nibs. Read all the advice on the IAMPETH site which is a goldmine of free information.

My own method is to turn the paper, so that the slope line is at right angles to the edge of my desk. At this angle, with an oblique holder, the nib points straight at the slope line and writing is possible in comfort, with the tines opening evenly for swelled strokes.

Good luck!

caliken

If it's the case that it's so uncomfortable, then what did people in the past who were taught Spencerian as their daily handwriting do (typically)? Get oblique holders, deal with it, or not write at the proper angle?

Personally, I went to Italic writing and felt Copperplate was best left to others. It felt all wrong to me.

On the other hand, my wife turns her paper to a 90 degree angle and "writes uphill". Don't ask me how, as it seems totally out of whack to me. But she not only does beautiful Spenserian, she manages a beautiful, controlled hand with a ballpoint. That's another skill that seems to be beyond me.

Yours,
Randal

If you go to http://www.iampeth.com/lessons/getting_sta...ing_oblique.pdf and go to the 5th paragraph on page 2, you will find that an early form of the oblique holder was patented in 1831. It seems to me to be very likely that Platt Rogers Spencer (1800 -1864) used an oblique holder from the outset in his development of Spencerian script and all others who followed his example did likewise. On the IAMPETH site, there is a photographic display of early penholders , all of which are oblique.

I have no idea which type of penholder was used for everyday Spencerian/Business script. Perhaps some erudite member of this forum can give us a better historical perceptive.


caliken

Some books about `Business Penmanship` on iampeth website suggests using straight penholders instead of oblique ones because this style uses no flex.

I hadn't thought of that - good point, kivanck!

Learning Copperplate and Spencerian was one of those moments when I thought, "After all these years, ... finally!"

Being a lefty underwriter does have certain benefits.

And for the rest of the world, most people try angling the paper or using an oblique holder.