Dear members,

The Chatter forum is temporarily closed.

Hopefully it will only remain so for the weekend at the most as we are currently in the process of determining how to proceed with the operation of said forum, given how the growing number of members, and therefore the (albeit small but) growing number of problematic members are putting a strain on our resources. If it takes a bit longer to resolve this, we hope that you can appreciate the collective effort required to deal with such matters.

We would like to highlight that this does not mean that members are to post Chatter-type threads in the other forums on FPN and we would appreciate that everyone understand and remember this. Action would unfortunately have to be taken if this request is not respected.

Thank you in advance to all our members for your patience and understanding while we try to make FPN a better place for everyone.

The FPN Admin Team.

I'm glad to hear it was closed by positive action rather than by some sort of catastrophe.

well olga, ernestine and the beautiful angelina and me are
appalled,
astounded,
amused,
awashed in guinness,
and totally kneffuled.

chatter, chatter, chatter no chatter wow--i am in withdrawal.

There, there, you are not alone. We'll all get through this together.

I am glad to hear this and hope that if/when chatter does resume, it is permanently altered.

As I stated in an earlier thread that discussed this issue, I propose that Chatter should become Pen Chatter, where people can post personal anecdotes, random thoughts, musings, jokes, observations, and all other casual, non-technical comments about pens. But discussions of our personal lives, politics, world-news, and other issues, without relating them to pens, should have no place on this forum at all in my view.

Over the past several months, I've really felt that non-pen-related threads in Chatter have begun to dominate FPN, and this has diminished overall quality of content. If people are bored and lonely, then they/we should write a review of a new pen, post some writing samples of new ink mixes, or do some research on the history of an obscure pen and share it with the board -- rather than start threads on non-FP related issues.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

QM2

I couldn't agree less. If that is what the future holds then I will be departing the boards.

Bravo! It is unfortunate that a significant number of members have come to view Chatter as a Usenet island within FPN.

let me preface by saying i rarely read or posted anything to chatter. the only time i remember going there, i got a tip on a local coffee place that has become my favorite. that being said, i think it should stay. it adds to the "community" of the board.

I could not agree more....
It is extremely unfortunate that a bunch of members have decided that Chatter is free ground to bring highly controversial topics into play and then blast other members if they don't agree with their position...
The amount of abusive personal interaction has risen to alarming proportions since I first became a member here...

The number of members has grown so much it is unavoidable that they will be problems.
I will miss the learning opportunities (threads like recommended books etc.) that the Chatter
section offered. They were many useful OT discussions there. I am afraid that the taxing of administrators' time is too much.
I hope that you can come up with an effective solution. Thank you Administrators for your efforts

Not A Number...I agree with you. The Outline for Chatter indicated that it was to be a place for topics OTHER THAN PENS...sort of a crackerbarrel place. Shame on the folks who misbehahved and caused this closure...

I haven't been on the board much in the last week.

Was there a sudden spike in the hostility of the board?

Is this a matter of time demands on our moderators? (who are, after all, volunteers).

As I think about some of the members who have been banned in the last year, it has been my impression that it was usually over chatter-related offenses. Perhaps there were offenses in other areas of the board that I am not aware of, but I wouldn't know about those.

At any rate.....

As I reflect upon my own postings on the board, I am aware of a drift in my posting distribution. When I first started, the general writing instruments was my most frequent site of posting. Later, it shifted to Montblanc. For most of the past year, Chatter has been number one.

That causes me to think.....I will miss Chatter if it never comes back. On the other hand, my time on the board will probably become more efficient. I have to confess that I have been wasting some time posting on Chatter. I suspect that removing Chatter may help with some of the bandwidth issues of the board.

Maybe it ought to stay closed.

Given the amount of traffic, and the current issues with bandwidth and database uptime, this is probably a good idea for several reasons.

Tricky one! Having had some experience of helping run a site, I know the problems that this type of area can cause.
We decided (I am involved in a site dedicated to B&O, possibly the MB of the Hi-Fi World!!) to keep the site true to our core values. We don't have a chatter area but do have a Lifestyle area which allows some non Hi-Fi posts. Of the near 100,000 posts in the last year (we changed server about a year ago), only 1400 are in the Lifestyle section. This suits us fine.
We do actually have a problem with our size as we have recently been hitting our limit. Having a chatter section costs money as one has to pay for the space. In the case of FPN, I joined to learn about and purchase Fountain Pens. I go to other sites for political and sceptical views, when I want.
Maybe a link to a chatter group on another server could be made so that the FPN can remain a site dedicated to pens but still have an outlet where members can communicate non pen related issues.

Well, I guess I thought Chatter was specifically for non-pen-related subjects since any pen-related subject would fit in one of the other forums. I'll miss Chatter if it has to go, but as I said in a previous post, I can see that it probably is a drain on the moderators time and maybe it just isn't practical to maintain Chatter.

This won't be good news for my bank account because I'll start spending most of my time in Writing Instruments or Pen Reviews and I'll be introduced to pens that I don't have and -------- well, I don't have to tell you what will happen. But I can't expect Chatter to be maintained just because Judybug has no pen resistance.

Judybug

I agree. And I say this as one who has enjoyed the discussions of good books, classical music, coffee roasting, and single malt scotch that have frequently appeared in chatter. What I have not enjoyed are the recurring debates on such controversial issues as gun control, Obama, the inheritance tax, the Patriot Act, etc. Such discussions have served to alienate fellow fountain pen collectors from one another. It just isn't worth it. I know nothing about the bandwidth shortage, but, it seems to me that, if we have scarce bandwidth available, it should be allocated primarily to fountain pen topics, because that is the reason for our existence.

I understand that in a formal mess (dinner) in the British Army the topics of sex, religion and politics are banned.

Were something like this to happen here, it would not be as limited as Pen Chatter, and would still allow topics like coffee, literature, music, sharpening razor blades with pyramids, strange service in shops, etc, etc, etc.

Perhaps, rather than outright bans, certain topics could be declared 'worn out', in that little more that is useful could be written on those topics. These topics might be gun control, the coming US election, the free market economy and so on.
I hate to say it, but apparently anything to do with Islam, including art, history, maths and science, would have to be on that list.
The 'worn out' threads that haven't currently been closed would not disappear, but anyone posting on those topics would be referred to them.

Perhaps also Chatter topics, once started, should stay strictly on-topic. It seems to me that perhaps the main problem has been with off-topic contributions getting heated.
I know that I have started a Chatter topic that asked a particular question. While it was on-topic it was enjoyable and I learnt something, but when it soon became off-topic, it wasn't fun anymore and I stopped watching my own thread.

Just my tuppence worth.

DavidW

When I was a teen and young man in Kansas City, one of my favorite places to spend an afternoon was the Nelson Art Gallery. A big old place full of suits of armor, Egyptian sculpture, French Impressionists, modern artists. There was a small room above the main entrance looking out over the grounds that had nothing to do with art whatsoever. It was a little snack bar where you could get a cold sandwich, a fresh pastry and coffee or tea. It was there that I remember relaxing and taking a break from all the art. I think of that room with fond memories even today, decades later. It isn't there now. In it's place, they roofed over a courtyard and put in an expensive restaurant.

Chatter was like that place here, for me. It had become a nice place to take a break from all the more serious stuff about pens. I know there were topics discussed that were distressing, but I didn't read those for the most part. The outcome was predictable and I know it is pointless to try to change someone's mind when they have strong opinions.. so I didn't bother. It was interesting to see others opinions and hear different points of view and I will miss it if it does not come back. I doubt I will come here as often and I know for certain I won't spend as much time here if it goes. It will be like taking recess out of school.

If losing Chatter means not losing FPN then let it go. Short of that I would not support the permanent closing of the Chatter forum. As to a Pen Chatter forum isn't the entire board outside of Chatter simply dispersed pen chatter?

FPN is my first stop each night and Chatter is my last forum before I move on to other places. I also spend more time reading the posts there then in any other forum on the boards. My presence here would drastically decrease if Chatter were shut down.

Simply put you either have a general topics forum or you don't. As the saying goes, you can't be just a little bit pregnant. Certainly there are other outlets for expression in areas outside of fountain pens, but there are few that have a broad base of opinions. Most are limited to a particular subject, and within that to a particular perspective. In Chatter we have the opportunity to interact with those who differ.

In my opinion it would be better to open a new forum where the controversial subjects would be fenced in. Enter at your own risk would be its motto. Just as posts referencing a pen manufacturer are generally moved to the Brand Focus forums so inappropriate posts to the Chatter forum would be moved to the new forum. Give the mods in the new forum big sticks and the ability to "encourage" others to walk softly.

Short of that have stringent rules of conduct within the Chatter forum. Perhaps a way to contain the ordinary rough and tumble of debates regarding controversial topics should be explored before a complete change to Chatter is instituted. I know this would put more pressure on the mods, but that is better than surrendering our ability to express our joys and sorrows with others who share, at least in one instance, our passion.

View New Posts is useful now.

Love it.

As an administrator on another forum, I can feel the pain of such a section's getting out of hand. In fact, our similar sub-forum suffered the same fate a while back. After a very long absence of that section, we have decided to bring it back with a few changes, and it has made a difference. The sub-forum no longer adds to post count, so people who just wanted the number by their name no longer have much reason to post there. Also, the threads are automatically deleted after ten days of inactivity. It keeps disk occupation low, as well as helping to eliminate resurrected pointless threads.

That said, I have no true arguments against at least temporarily making Chatter inaccessible. Those who remain when (rather if) the section is ever revived, will better appreciate it. More strict rules for the section seem to be necessary as well.

But something I haven't seen mentioned, which I've found on several forums to be a solution for a place to vent, is a chat area. IRC is a good way to start, wince it's completely free (both monetarily, and it requires no registration) and won't use any of FPN's resources. Pen related talk would always be welcome, of course. But the rules there could be incredibly lax, facilitating the venting which people would otherwise express in Chatter. Of course, a sponsored chat service is also an option (Yahoo, MSN, and the like), though not everyone is signed up with any given service, and registration is mandatory for them. An integrated chat would be nice, but the rules would need to be strict since it would be an initial introduction for so many new visitors to the site.

They're only some thoughts.

Except when looking for particular pieces of information (when I use Search), I guess I have always used View New Posts. That way, I have learnt many new things, not only in Chatter, but about brands and pens I new little or nothing about, like Esterbrook, Mont Blanc and those incredible Japanese Jumbo pens.

I would be very sad to see Chatter go, but perhaps it needs to be limited more strictly. After all, it is the moderately used moderation powers that make the FPN so attractive.

The number if immoderate members on this board must be less than 1 in 1,000. However, with nearly 15,000 members, we will start to get a significant number of those, and they will make there presence known to a much greater degree than their numbers would imply, because they are immoderate, in what they say and how often they say it.

I hope we can fix the problem without throwing the baby out with the bathwater...

Spot on, David!

It's up to the FPN mods to decide whether Chatter should be like a genteel club or a corner at Hyde Park. It's their (virtual) living room, they get to make the rules. If S, R,and P are 'actively discouraged' then those who don't like topical restrictions can either find another board that permits those discussions or they can start their own with their own rules.

I strongly disagree with this comment. It is our living room, the admins run it but they do not own the site ( to the best of my knowledge). We as the posting public support the ongoing life of the site and should be involved in the evolution of the site.


I have been told to shut up or go start my own site for stating this before but I have nothing to lose for saying it again.


Kurt

i was involved on the technical side of a site that had a forum as a very small portion of the site. we had over 1 million posts in the forum. likewise, we had a "chatter" section that had several hundred thousand posts. one of the moves we made was to automatically purge all threads in the chatter section older than 1 week. in addition, there was a warning upon entering that forum that it wasn't moderated.

Yikes! Not here please.

Websites are not nor ever have been a democracy. The owner(s) set the tone for what they want and the moderators and admin. carry out those wishes to the best of their ability. The posting public can visit or not visit as they desire. You should contact the admin by PM to discuss any philosophical differences, but in the end you either accept the boundaries or you really do need to shut up and start your own site.

Our living room? Who is our? I only ask because you make it sound like I might be part of the our whose living room this is and I am certainly not!

I don't know who owns the site, but I know that I do not.

Furthermore, mere posting does not equal support! You stipulate that someone owns the site, by that someone is the person who pays the bills, not the person or persons who make the minimal contribution of posting.

"Websites are not nor ever have been a democracy. The owner(s) set the tone for what they want and the moderators and admin. carry out those wishes to the best of their ability. The posting public can visit or not visit as they desire. You should contact the admin by PM to discuss any philosophical differences, but in the end you either accept the boundaries or you really do need to shut up and start your own site."

I'm in total agreement. When I first came to this website(after,like everyone else,checking it out),I came seeking info on a
type of Chilton pen. I waded through Chatter,and found it very interesting. Some of the subject matter I passed over because
I wasn't interested in offering a viewpoint on something I wasn't interested in. Still,it was a place where views could be shared
on a reasonably calm level. The point I've always kept in my head is that this forum for us pen collectors is a privilege,not a
right.Therefore, as such, we members ought to uphold the professionalism that Chatter requires.

After all,the point that attracts other guests is the kindness that we show towards each other in a forum that in many other
places devolves into and breeds vehemence.

John

Yes, the intolerance of some posters *is* rather unfortunate, isn't it?
But I guess that is to be expected when someone starts a thread that is just begging to be shut down....

Thanks to the Administrators and Moderators for taking these steps to make FPN the friendly and peaceful place (for the most part) it used to be

I suspect many members will be departing if that happens. That being said, I understand why Chatter was closed. The general discussion forum seems to take on a life of its own on some special interest boards. Often, it comes to dominate the board, and does much harm as a result.

I think that Chatter should be brought back intact or not at all. If it is brought back with restrictions, then it will bring even more turmoil. If the bounds were tested before, having more restrictive bounds won't change things, only give the mods that much more work to do. If Chatter is not brought back, then OT posts are likely to be made in other forums. Threatening "action" against anyone who does so only makes things worse, as threats create more problems than they solve. Ditto for the frequent thread (and now forum) nuking, and threating anyone who complains about such publicly.

Even if Chatter is resurrected unchanged, I won't be back. FPN overall is way out of control, and seems well into the meltdown stage. Kind of sad, you should have seen this place a long time ago. It was excellent! Some of the criticisms leveled at FPN on Pentrace are starting to ring true.


Well, I hope they aren't able to shut you up. Your commentary has always been both relevant and insightful, IMHO. Suppression of intelligent discussion is poison to any board. I hope you did not take my earlier suggestion that you start your own pen forum as criticism. I really do think you could do very well at it.

There are alternative boards, but most have significant problems. PenTrace is limited to four pages, which makes it next to useless as a repository of information. Stylophiles Online Forum seems to be offline every time I check. The Fountain Pen Community could be promising, but seems rather empty at the moment.

I hope you all enjoy collecting and using your fountain pens and pen related paraphernalia!

Take care,

Pendragon

Dear ANM - I believe you're correct about this.



Dear Pendragon - I sincerely hope it's not as bad as all that! I don't believe the problem is quite that serious. I used to frequent a literature site with a general chatter forum. It was far far nastier than I've ever seen our Chatter forum be. At least half of those frequenting this literature discussion had no regard for basic good manners - and I know that there are other forums that are much more rowdy than our Chatter. However, I don't mean to try to justify bad behavior by pointing to worse behavior. But I honestly believe that the overwhelming majority of FPNers want a peaceful, civil Chatter and are struggling to figure out how to achieve it. And I think that will-to-make-things-better will surely save us. At any rate - I believe FPN will survive with or without Chatter.

It just occurred to me -------- maybe we don't need a Chatter forum. Maybe we can amuse ourselves by discussing how and whether or not to have a Chatter forum as we're doing in this thread.

Judybug

Fascinating. Then Machivelli was correct. If the Admins and Mods are volunteers AND the Guidelines are just that, then there is assumptive power. What my friends have told me about this site, then is becoming a bit more clear. If the site and server are free, as was commented in a post somewhere (unlike Zoss...), then this situation becomes even more confusing...

Kurt,
Every time this statement comes up, you seem to forget that FPN is a PRIVATELY OWNED entity.... neither you, I or any other member own any part of it...
Neither do the Admins....
As members of the site we do have input, that does not mean that the owner or Admins have to take all our input and make it so....

Unfortunately, I agree with this, which is exactly why I think that non-pen-related Chatter cannot exist here successfully at all. Saying that "You can chat... But don't bring up guns, religion, politics, sex, or anything else controversial, or you will be yanked/deleted/thrown out without due notice" just will not work and will defeat the whole point of "Chatter". Religion, politics and sex are inherently intertwined with our personal lives, so if it is a personal Chatter, then it must allow these topics.

Also, I am fervently anti-censorship. "Live free or die... but be civil" is a motto I'd agree with. Civility rules are inherently different from censorship rules. So I believe, if there IS a non-pen-related Chatter, than a person should be able to express any view he/she wishes on education/abortion/Obama, even if these views are very controversial, but he/she canNOT call another member names (any names, be they racial slurs or even something like "idiot"), tell another member to "shut up", "get a life", or anything in that vein. Censorship of views: No. Enforced civility to other members: Yes.

Is what I described above possible to achieve? In a very large forum, I think not. And in a forum that is supposed to be about fountain pens, I do not understand why the effort is even necessary. It makes no logical sense that we need to have a non-pen-chatter section that dominates the board. I like all of the members who have posted their dismay with my words, and I do not want them to leave FPN. But I think that their attachment to the current version of Chatter is misguided and can be channeled into more relevant avenues.

We can still have friendly personable, warm discussions with each other -- over pens, inks, and related matters!

Best wishes to all,
QM2

Who owns it? To whom do we owe thanks and hence to whom do we directly complain about issues we have with members, admins, mods etc. Because your comment seems to imply that there is ONE PLACE THE BUCK STOPS...

Juxtapose to the ZOSS LIST. I KNOW Tom Zoss. I have had direct email contact with him. I have had phone conversations with him. I find him a cosmopolitian and convivial person. Quite frankly, that list seems very solid, and when an answer is desired on an issue, the feedback is a quantum leap ahead of the mishmash other lists provide.

So...to whom are we beholden or held in thrall?

I am finding this thread very thought provoking. The different philosophies being expressed on merits of a general Chatter forum on this site made me think about why I joined FPN 18 months ago. While I did find some of the threads in Chatter interesting (I even contributed to a few that caught my attention), I essentially signed up to learn more about FPs and to share what little knowledge i have, when appropriate. I, for one, would not be too disappointed if Chatter did not return.

Let's not forget that FPN is about fountain pens and related writing subject matter. As others have mentioned, there are many other outlets available on the net for the general topics that were covered in Chatter.

Frankly, the Chatter forum never bothered me. Like many have stated: I'd look at the title, read a few posts, and add my comments if I had a perspective/comment to share. Most times I'd just keep on moving. I think the only forum requirement should be civility (part of which is **us** keeping in mind that there's a broad spectrum of cultures and ages participating). Establishing rules beyond this, well, (in my opinion) the forum should be eliminated.

Also my opinion, 99% of the topics weren't comprised of S, P, or R so this is a pretty drastic action for a minority of the postings.

My sincere best wishes to the Moderators in their deliberations.

Paul

It pains me to admit it, but you might be right. No Chatter might mean more time for the creative writing I always say that I don't have time for. I'm off now - to write a short story, poem, essay ---- something! Maybe I'll write a "Lament for the Loss of Chatter."

Judybug

Yes once again I feel the love of people on the site.

Kurt

this is bordering on absurdity!!
if you do not want to read posts that strongly state, sometimes, personally offensive statements, simply do not click on chatter or do not read the post, blank out all posts by a certain member, whose comments offend you.

it seems to me that the mods have got their hairshirts on and are flagelating themselves. chatter is fun. it is not war, famine or earthquakes.

i really appreciated a former moderator of chatter who refuted my request for deleting a post i considered offensive. he refused, reminding me about the meaning of the "freedom of speech."

a friend in a b/c communication asked me why chatter on fpn is so important. because fpners are smart, intelligent and able to agree about one topic--our love of fountain pens!!

do not close chatter!!
sincerely,
olga, ernestine, angelina and me, aunt rebecca

I'm sorry, but this sounds rather patronizing, at least to my ears. Who exactly are you to tell people that their attachment to Chatter is "misguided?"

For my part, I think that Chatter, at its best, fosters a stronger sense of community. At its best, unfortunately, it can do quite the opposite. I'll be glad if it stays, but not overly distraught if it goes.
I won't presume to comment on others' feelings on the matter...

David

Can you then tell me who actually owns the site?

The admins are the defacto owners of the site as they have total control. The people who pay the bills- people who contribute can either support or not support or just leave if there are concerns- there are no balances beyond that.


Kurt

Never said it was just a person posting who owns the site but the people who contribute to the site by giving money. Maybe I have rose glasses on to think this but what would happen if no more contributions were sent to FPN? would the site be supported by the owners or would it close?


Kurt

And that's all we are doing..amusing ourselves because there is no guarantee that anything said in this thread or elsewhere will be used by the admins to make their decision. We will just have to sit tight and wait.


Kurt

Aunt Rebecca:

You've hit the nail on the head - and you are exactly right!

I was going to refrain from posting on this thread but it's monumental to me that I finally agree with my favorite liberal. I love you Rebecca -- and Keep On Posting. I'll most likely hit the road too. It's been a good ride!

Although playing and composing music is my first love, I also love fountain pens and have been using them, maintaining them, and "inking" them for 51 of my 60 years (come tomorrow) - long before FPN ever came about. I also enjoy political discussion and debate.

It was nice to find a place where one could pour a fine cup of coffee, check out fountain pen stuff, and also have a good discussion about various topics with people who have a common interest in fountain pens.

For after all, we are a small lot.

I spent most of yesterday underground because of all the tornadoes we had here in Oklahoma, right in my area. I saw people come together; and danger and destruction up close and for real. Spending a day like that reminds one quickly that life is too darn short to sweat the small stuff.

Until the next turn of the wheel.

Sincerely,

Mescoff

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV7ZzgJCYFo

If one looks at the majority of topics in WRITING INSTURMENTS...at least the first page...the preponderance seems to be of several sorts...

Angst over what to buy--pen

Angst over what to buy--nib

Angst over what was bought--pen

Speculation over something--pen

What if--pen

What if--nib

Noob questions

None of these issues are inherently good or bad, but I got a feeling that there is a great deal of repetition in them...that is the same basic question is repeated time after time after time...and nobody goes to the archive...to fine find out that Pelikan does a darn good job of tracking their nib with to the point that maybe we should use Pelikan nibs as the standard against which all other nib widths are judged..

Or understand that there is a caveat that no matter what I may say or that Ghost Plane may say or that WD40 guy may say, every person who picks up a pen is going to have a different experience with that pen...regardless...so that what I think about a Pel 215 has as much to do with what that wd40 guy thinks of a Pel 215 as apple butter has to do with (Potty Mouth).

And that in the pen world, a $40 pen may just write as well as or better than a $400 pen...and since that happens pretty darn regularly..IN MY OPINION...the fine old internet acronym YMMV YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY should be posted by everyone before every post...and after each post as well...

What does this have to do with CHATTER getting closed down? In my opinion, CHATTER was the one place that us FP folk..and that is our comnon point...could get together and...well...chat. The fact that we are a diverse bunch---geographically, religiously, guy/gal, ecomomically, etc.---will, inevidibly, lead to conflict...but for (Potty Mouth)'s sake...why the heck could we have not handled it better. Now the POWER STRUCTURE...over which we have no control...has said we can't have the one place that banality is not the operatant word...

That the POWER STRUCTURE has the control is part of the deal. We all agreed to abide by the guidelines...and in agreeing we agreed, implicitly, to the interpretations of those guidelines.

So, I suspect we just bide our time and either seek out some other place to convivially lift our virtual coffee mugs and discourse on pens, inks and current affairs or stick around and see what happens...

kurt,
it seems to me that since you left your moderator's position, you have posted some, bitter posts, (to me) !! this one is over the top--

yes, members can take their marbles and go home--but what a shame--we lose their special slant on fountain pens and other topics.

so kurt, although we disagree on almost everything--i still read your posts and value your opinions--they make me think!! please don't leave!!

No this isn't me being bitter- I left that a long time ago but right after it happened oh yes I was bitter & angry but people live and grow, I understand that there is no place for me at FPN beyond being a poster.

I was just stating that the only check/balance that anyone who posts here has is to either stay and post with whatever are the guidelines or go somewhere else.

Pretty much simple as that- either you tolerate what the rules are or you leave, there isn't a middle ground of trying to change things because there is no leverage that a poster has with the admins.

You can make suggestions and get shouted down & told to leave but there is no guarantee that anything you post will have the slightest effect.

And I bet that there are people already lining up to flame for saying that but it's true. There is nothing that says the admins have to do anything that people ask for even a majority of posters can not change that.


Kurt

It wasn't at all meant to be patronising. I began the statement with "I think that..." meaning that it is my opinion; I was not "telling people" what to do. As for who I think I am... Well, I think I am a member here, who can have her own viewpoint on the situation and express it like anyone else. That's all really.

QM2