There is a thread in CHATTER right now about improper posting etiquette in this or that forum. One person indicated that, in his opinion, the Internet should not be a place for the weak.

I have noted great incivility that went unchecked and I have noted that some mildly humorous comments were dealt with in a severe manner. There seemed to be no consistancy across the forums. Yet having read the Guidelines, I feel they were broken in the former case and were not in the latter; the person posting seemed to be the differentiating element...

Could we as a community know what transgressions have caused people to be severed from this site and who they are so we might look at their posts and learn our lessons? I am concerned, in my noviate status, of transgression and becoming intangled in some snare of a social more of which I was unaware. Others like myself would be grateful as well, I am sure...

Thank you for at least considering this request. I will try to refrain from any posting until some answer is returned...

I understand your concerns, There are no end to these. Being poor in money and not able to buy a good pen, I got the XXX (One more X). Being poor in my english, I got mis-understood Or the Reader are Worst?????? My wife always said the reader was worst, but always remind me to type and spell correctly. Being bad in computering I can't do much. (But that does not mean I am going to be bad.) I just want to tell you that while in a fourm, you will see one of two that try to up shine others. TRUST ME......

Behide Computer all thing can happened but not face to face......I suggest you can take it easy, Learn and use what is good here and discarded the rubbish back to the fourm. Anyway it not going to dirty your house Or are you easily affected by such remark(s).

The word used was (OPINION) Like you and I and others, We have OPINION.

My mother always said "I talk to you , your ear in and there out.......

You will be happy to find some nice pal here, Trust me.

I have found mine, Have you?

Happy penning.

Trust me that are more

I've noticed a similar pattern. I don't know which persons you're referring to. In some cases I know which posts were deleted but I didn't see a distinct pattern to figure out what was acceptable and what was not. In some cases where the posts were deleted I re-read the guidelines and, from my perspective, did not see how they violated the guidelines. My rule of thumb is that if you can't tell what it's about, then it's not about that (meaning it's not about violating the guidelines, it's about something else). What that is, I can only guess.

Like you I've simply decided to refrain from posting (except to state that I'm refraining from posting).

Cedar

There have been members who have been removed from FPN, but not as many as most would think...
Generally these were people who decided that anything they saw fit would be posted no matter how rude or insulting or inappropriate and the rest of us be damned ....
One in particular took great joy in sexual innuendo and eventually went a bit further... when reminded that there are young people (some children) who read this forum he answer was to not let them read it...
He was then approached by the Admins back channel and proceeded to tell them to bugger off.... so ended his somewhat less than illustrious career on FPN...
But it generally takes that kind of attitude to get tossed from the site... and then generally only after the person has been suspended twice.... so the Admins are for the most part reasonable...

One of the big problems is that the Mods and Admins actually have real time jobs and lives outside of FPN (Horror of Horrors, LOL) and don't always catch things immediately. They all also have different views on what is and what is not offensive... so you see different Mods dealing with things in different ways...

Over the past two years there has been an amazing growth in FPN.... personally I am not sure that is all good.... as we also seem to have gotten a bunch of very argumentative people who may not respect others opinions.
We also seem to have gotten some that seem to spend the majority of their time in Chatter and not on the pen related areas.... some (from my research) spend almost 90% of their postings in Chatter and rarely in the pen areas.
This leads me to wonder what it is they are doing here... are you here to discuss pens or stir up problems in the Chatter area....

The internet is a strange place..... people will say things online that they would never say to someone face to face.... Things that might get them a black eye or worse...
The anonymity of the internet is something that is good and bad at the same time.... intolerance and insults are more prevalent than they would be in face to face confrontations.
Unfortunately, I see FPN becoming like a lot of the large forums where this is also happening...
When I joined quite a while ago.... you did not see anywhere near the amount of posting as you do now in Chatter. And even then it was much more respectful of other opinions.
Maybe we have grown to fast, maybe some of the people who have joined are not here to share what some of us older members did, I don't have an answer...
I only know I don't like the bashing, insulting and intolerant behavior that happening now.

Much goes on backchannel that people are not aware of and since it is backchannel, it doesn't belong on the forum even if it might enlighten the membership. What might start as a minor infraction by an individual and really not worthy of anything more than "can you please reconsider how you expressed yourself in x post" turns into a flaming row backchannel with the Admins/Mods. That is where the real damage is done for the most part. Making those discussions public would be unhealthy to the board in so many ways.

Tom hit the nail on the head re: what others may see as inconsistency. Different people moderate different forums and the mods usually have first run at their forum. While we try to find common ground among the mods as to what is acceptable and what isn't, we also don't lord over each other and tell each other how to handle their forums. Sometimes we don't even see a problem because we do have lives. The post goes unreported therefore nothing is ever done about the post you might see as more offensive than one that was removed. When I became co-moderator of the Pelikan forum I found old posts that might have been moderated differently had they occurred on my watch. But they didn't so they remained.

Perhaps the strongest suggestion I can make is that members consider how their words impact others when they write them, If confused as to why something was removed ask backchannel of the mods, don't repost the removed topic and demand to know what it's all about (that will just result in another removal), speak rationally and in an adult manner when taking up an issue backchannel with a mod or admin. Many times issues have been resolved with a simple "what was wrong with what I posted" to the moderator.

Finally, if you see something that offends you, report it. But do not anticipate that because it offends one person, it will necessarily result in removal of the post or banishment of the poster. All things will be weighed by the mods/admin and a decision made to the best of their ability.

Additionally there are posters who reconsider what they said in the heat of the moment and request that we edit or delete their posts. If other posters have quoted these inflammatory statements and/or decided to flame based on the original post, sometimes surgery is necessary to return the thread to an even keel.

I, for one, try to edit or remove as little as possible. But if it's a choice between keeping the peace or giving up my paying job because I'm pressed for time...

It is the inconsistency between forums that concerns me the most. I may have an opinion about a certain pen...say a Mont Blanc. I love the pen, but no matter which ink I use in it, the pen writes at an average level. I have pens for which I paid faint percentage of the cost of that pen which write circles around it.

It is my fear that if I publish such an opinion...whether in the WRITING INSTRUMENTS forum to gain understanding, the PEN REVIEW forum to outline an experience or the MONT BLANC forum to see if anyone else has had similar results, I will be afoul of the interpretations of the Moderators of those particular forums. If I am, then I will be censured and besmirched. I live with some trepidation even being on this site. It seems that the pervading atmosphere is one of shaming the participants into behaving in some way, but the way is not clear for any of us.

This last comment is even more apparent since Mr. Griz and Ms. Plane have indicated there is variation amongst the Forum Moderators and the Administrators in Guideline interpretation. Variations on interpretation, in fact, create a social more minefield for the participants.

I am now even more reluctant to share on any of the forums which SEEM to allow opinion, for fear of offending anyone. This IS NOT why I joined this site. I thought there was a free flowing of ideas and thoughts, with humor and some bon homie. It appears I have been misled...

If I am wrong, PLEASE let me know...

You are wrong....
There is nothing wrong with sharing ideas or adding some levity to the proceedings......
It becomes a problem when the supposed sharing of ideas becomes flaming and outright insults to or by other members....
There is nothing wrong with sharing the problems you are having with a pen as long as you do it in a respectful manner...
The problem arises when someone with a problem decides to totally blast the pen, manufacturer and everyone who ever owned or thought of owning the item...
If you post a query or idea and another member starts to blast you for it, just report it to the moderators and let them take it from there...

Hypothetically, then, I could post a benign commentary, I could be tarred and feathered by someone, that someone could then be contrite and apologize, and I could be taken to task by the forum moderators and/or site administrators for posting incidiary remarks.

This is not the sort of place FPN was portrayed...It is now sounding more and more like a very scary place...

If I have to agree with Tom; what you're describing has never been my experience of this site at all. The line between "I've tried 15 different inks in my Montblanc and it's still an average writer" and "Montblanc sucks, anyone who owns a Montblanc is an idiot!" is not a fine line at all. The first is perfectly acceptable, the second not, I think. And frankly, that goes for just about any comment that could be made in the forums; it's actually not that difficult to know whether a comment is acceptable or not in the forums, as the variation in moderation across forums is not THAT inconsistent.
My experience of FPN has been one of free-flowing ideas and thoughts. People have strong opinions, but not to such an extent that other members are cowed into submission, at least in my experience.
I hope you stick around to change your mind. Best,
David

No, the person who would be taken to task is the person who responded to your benign post with a flame. And by taken to task, I mean contacted back-channel in a very polite manner by one of the mods.
David

It is my devout and sincere hope what you say would be so. In my hypothetical, I stated that the respondent was apologetically contrite. Since it has been established by Mr. Griz and Ms. Plane that there is divergence amongst the Moderators and the Site Administrators on Guideline interpretation, my benign post COULD be viewed as incendiary and I then become the "guilty person" for posting improper (by interpretation) statements.

I am NOT trying to be argumentative. I am trying to understand and, using logic...including hypothetical limit testing, which is a very legitimate process...the appropriate behavior. As I stated in the beginning of this thread, the thread in CHATTER which generated my fears continues...and has not assuaged my concerns one iota. I am beginning to believe there are cliques within FPN and those cliques are immune from the rules. If one is new or not part of one of the cliques, then one is subject to vastly different rules...or interpretations. I have no objective proof of this. There is no "smoking gun." But I sense apologetics creeping in and when that happens, certain alarms go off.

At this point, I will be even more circumspect in my postings than I had planned to be. It will be very hard for me to render an opinion or even give a review of a favored pen, since, other than physical dimensions, much of what we experience is so subjective.

More's the pity, I had hoped for a better experience here. That is how it was presented to me.

I don't know what else to tell you. A lot of the language used seems very dramatic (besmirched, misled, scary), given that we're talking about an internet forum. You asked people to tell you if you were wrong in your assumptions. A couple have, apparently with no effect. All I can tell you is that there are hundreds of reviews in the reviews section and that no one has been censored for posting a favorable or unfavorable review of a pen on FPN. The posts that are censored are the truly inflammatory posts (ie. insulting, rude, accusatory, etc). My experience has been that as long as an opinion is formulated respectfully and nicely, then there's no problem (and believe, I've expressed my fair share of opinions and have never been censored in any way).
Though Ghost Plane has acknowledged that there are differences in moderation across the various forums, I don't think the differences should be overstated.
As for the existence of cliques, I think we should all keep in mind that this forum has gone from 3000 to 14000 members in a very short time. Some of us know one another better than others. But I don't think those who have been here longer receive special treatment, if that's what you're implying.
Overall, I'm a little surprised by such a dramatic response to this forum, but like I said, perhaps spending more time here, and browsing through the Reviews section, for instance, will change your mind.
Regards,
David

Maybe Albert Ellis' Rational Emotive Therapy will help here - what's the WORST thing that could happen if you make a post that invites censure from the moderators? The worst possible thing that could happen is you get banned from a pen discussion website. This consequence doesn't seem all that awful. So I wouldn't let fear of harsh discipline ruin the experience of sharing your frank opinions about writing instruments.

Let me point you to one thread in particular and add a couple of thoughts on what David (cellulophile) has said.

The thread:
http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/in...=61675&st=0

This thread had the potential, especially with its title which might have drawn in Pel lovers like flies on...well, on stuff. As you can see, not only did that not happen, but people were supportive and the mods didn't have a problem with the title or the responses. I invite you to do as David sugggested and read a number of reviews. There's a review on a pen that I absolutely love (Pilot Prera) that went on forever it seemed. People, for the most part, liked the pen. But there were dissenters. No one came in and bashed them for disagreeing with those of us who like the pen. Just lots of talk.

It is, absolutely wrong, to think that because you started a benign thread that someone else flamed you for, would earn you any blame. It's true that what some people consider benign, others do not. But for the moderators, it's usually a pretty clear line. No personal attacks, no negative gross generalizations.

David also rightly points out that the differences between moderators shouldn't be overstated. It's there, it's real, but it's minimal. As I said before, we generally talk amongst each ourselves about what should be done and many of us will ask other mods, "What do you think? Does this post cross the line?" If the consensus among the mods is yes, it might be pulled. If not, then it's likely to remain in place. It might be pulled temporarily for discussion among the mods or with the OP.

You will not get banned from a single post unless that single post is spam. You know spam, a poster comes in and posts that they're selling dog collars and men's underwear at discount prices then posts it in every forum. Most bannings have in fact been of that nature. Otherwise, everyone is given an opportunity to make their case with the mods. Feel free to write your opinion. If there is an issue with it from a moderator or admin's POV, it will be discussed backchannel. You will have an opportunity to discuss it with the mods if you so choose. A single rude post does not get one pulled from the forum. If that were true, there'd be a lot fewer members (including myself) than there are. I've had my moments and I've been swatted by Admin for it and we talked backchannel and came to an agreement. And I had been and admin so I knew the groundrules but I lost my temper.

I don't think we can state it more clearly at this point and further discussion is probably beating a dead horse. Past that, I can only reiterate, read the site for a while, watch the goings on, follow reviews, get to know the forum before posting further if it will ease your mind. Good luck. You are obviously intelligent and have something to offer the forum, it would be a shame to let the fear of an unlikely reproof prevent you from participating.

This has been interesting. I can see KCat's points in terms of who moderates and how that would influence discussion. That seems fair and understandable. As far as Old Griz's remarks it seems that tolerance is in the eye of the beholder by which I mean that some may think they are being tolerant but the opposing person may not feel that. Not saying it is or isn't, only that it can be perceived and experienced differently depending on one's position, espcially if one has censorship power and the other does not. Not to be argumentative but to offer another perspective.
Having had a number of my posts invisibled, censored or whatever the appropiate term is, I can say that it is very disconcerting and it feels a bit like being reprimanded or sent to my room with no explanation. It makes me feel a bit jittery not knowing what the "transgression" was. I think that is what jdf is expressing. I've never been contacted backchannel by a moderator stating what was objectionable. It, also, kind of weirds me out. Did I see what I think I saw? Did I or did I not post to that thread? Did someone say what I thought they said? Too late. Gone.
I can only speak for myself as to whether I have more tendency to post on chatter or pen topics and that is that I have more opinions on topics that I have experience with or have read about. I'm relatively new to pens so I have fewer opinions to express and spend more time reading than posting.
It is hard to keep in mind even all the types of people that might be reading these posts let alone individuals experiences, opinions, etc. I don't know how to manage that and have it not all become mundane blathering.
It does seem that there are two topics going on here that are related but different and that's pen topics and chatter topics. It would seem that different rules might apply?
I do appreciate the insight that the mods have offered here. It's food for thought on my part.

Cedar

I will take all the comments under advisement. I am as aware of the Rational Thought concept as anyone...trust me on this...that said, I decided to use the IN EXTREMA test process. From what I have been able to deduce this far, there is, at best, a loose set of guidelines interpreted differenently by humans from a number of different cultures who have different mores and social status. Thus their particular view of what a person writes may be as different as their background...young female American Female Vet who identifies with a heroine from THE MATRIX, a male British citizen of approximately middle age, a former Navy SEAL of Viet Nam era, older Irishman...

These are, I am sure, all honorable people with the site's best interest at heart. That they could see exactly, precisely the same on any one post regarding whether it was humorously intended, malicious, etc. is highly unlikely. That is both the beauty and the risk of this site.

My problem remains this...Do I take the risk of chastisement by posting opinion, subjective and purely observational from my perspective. Since there are some 14,000 registered participants, the likelihoon of offending someone is great, regardless of what disclaimers I place before and after any such post.

I would ask the Moderators and Administrators of this site to create formats for all forums with specific content that members can and cannot use. This way, members do not have to fear retribution from some unknown backchannel hatemonger or, worse, an offical with an agenda, should there be one at some time...

How's about you write that up when you have time.

I have a manuscript to finish.

Good grief - this is an internet chat forum, lets keep things in perspective, shall we?.

Here's a tip for everyone: Think about the value of what you are about to post. If your opinions and observations offer no value, and are posted merely because you want attention, feel bored, feel annoyed, feel whatever - don't bother. The FPN has more than enough zero-value posts and opinions we could all easily do without. This is a site about FOUNTAIN PENS.

The FPN is essentially a database. A database is only as good as the goodness of the data within it. Contribute good data to the FPN, and everyone benefits. Contribute junk and we gain nothing.

These are my personal thoughts, not that of a moderator. I am one member who dislikes the existence of the Chatter forum. I exist quietly inside of the forums pertaining to *my* area of interest. I don't participate in pen-bashing, I don't post idle and silly questions, I don't indulge in selfish little rants, stories of woes, etc and so forth - and I rarely engage in non-pen related discussion. I come here to talk about pens, and I am easily annoyed by those who don't.

Am I cranky about this topic? You bet.

The Administrators are not here to hold people's hands while they post messages. Why do you need guidelines? If you behave in a decent and polite manner, you'll never have any trouble. Post rubbish, you'll get rubbished in return. I think that's fair enough.

The moderators have dsiplayed their patience and good will, in this thread.

jdf regards himself as a comedian on the order of George Carlin or Richard Pryor.

About a week after he joined he started commenting on the quality of the moderation.

Why don't you just post and enjoy the site, rather than worrying about all of this? I don't see where the need for such melodrama stems from. This is an internet forum; even if, for some unlikely reason, you get chastised, besmirched, castigated, taken to task, drawn and quartered, etc, how bad could it really be? As far as I can tell, the forum guidelines can be summarized in one very simple statement: "don't be an a**hole." The vast majority of people (as in, I've only seen 2 or 3 get banned from FPN) post here with no problems whatsoever, an indication, I think, that you might be raising an issue where none exists.
David

Hi Laura,

While I wouldn't go quite as far as you do regarding "think of the value of what you post", I agree wholeheartedly about the Chatter issue. Sometimes I click on "Get New" and discover that as much as 50% of new posts are Chatter. Is that what FPN funding was meant to go towards, and are people who are donating aware of the space and traffic taken up by this largely non-pen-related subforum?

There was a thread started just recently about the need for a Lamy subforum, and the consensus of the moderators who responded was that there are not enough resources: To make a Lamy subforum, we would need to get rid of one of the other pen-related subforums, such as Conway Stewart, people said. When a popular pen brand with obviously enough threads to sustain itself cannot get its own subforum while Chatter thrives and grows, I think that is our sign that something is off here.

Don't I sometimes post in Chatter myself? Yes, occasionally I do, because it's there and because sometimes the topics raised cannot but attract/provoke me. But I will be the first to admit that I shouldn't do it.

My very serious suggestion to the moderators would be to maybe not eliminate Chatter altogether, but to rename it "Pen-Chatter" -- and make it a space for discussing the kind of stuff that's still about pens but doesn't fit into the other categories, and is more personal/anecdotal (for instance "How many pens are enough?", "Who got you into FP collecting?," "How a FP saved my dog," "FP at job interviews," etc).

I do realise that Chatter is probably there by popular demand, because people want it there. But still, what is the rationale of up to 50% of new posts in a forum called The Fountain Pen Network, being about current events, stories about somebody's bad day at work, candid discussions of people' personal problems, etc?

QM2

I had posts deleted because of my view that excellent design should be available to all.

I should explain.

I am a design consultant to some major British companies and two world class museums. I take the view that the quality and integrity of a design takes precedence over all other considerations whether we are talking about the appearance of a TV set, a watch, a fountain pen or a car.

I firmly beleive that the right to own good design should be sacrosanct for every person irrespective of affordability.

The fact that a Chinese manufacturer has the ability to produce a pen or watch or car for less than 1% of a similar item produced in Europe because of lower wages or better production methods should be considered on their own merits.

I have Chinese Pens, watches, guitars and kitchen appliances that are superior in quality to their European counterparts without being copies. Three business that I represent now have 100% of their manufacturing carried out in China and this action has reduced warranty claims by a significant amount over the last three years.

This opinion was attacked with some venom by two posters and supported by a moderator. the post was withdrawn.

To be subject to censorship, because of a principle which you hold to be true and for the benefit of many, can be difficult to accept but to reply to your original proposition, JDF, nothing is acheived and no progress is made with silence.

I suggest this. Let's dispense with pseudo-philosphical maunderings and just write about the pen subject about which one wants to write. If some material that you post is deemed out of line , someone will tell you. Apparent angst-ridden hand wringing and teeth gnashing ad infinitum in response to all these nice folks essentially advising you to just chill and go with the flow, likely will not get you any more reassurance, as you appear to dismiss or redirect most of what is told to you and seem determined to be unreassured. Most confidence comes from within. Instead of worrying about chastisement and instead of repeatedly expressing notion that you don't wish to argue, simply stop arguing and risk chastisement. There are worse things. Really. Insecurity is not the best core philosophy to use when embracing life.

I suggest this. Let us not ask moderators to create hyperdetailed guidelines for the overly focused. Let us not worry about retribution or backhannel cranks. Let us not worry if anyone is honorable and has the best interests... yada yada. Let us not worry too much about whether either cranky babble or carefully worded kindness might offend... someone.

I suggest we not worry too much about the degree of "beauty and risk" found here. It's... just... a... flipping... pen discussion board. A quite nice one. One with no apparent pretentions to solving the world's Grand Questions.

I find myself, in response to the repeated challenges posted in this thread, to which no answer apparently has given satisfaction, advising- as per suggestions given during my kidhood- to, like, take a chill-pill and go with the flow. And, if my response is out of line, i won't take umbrage at chastisement, honorable criticism or any other overly complex worry that results. I'll just... go with the flow.

The OP in this thread has bit of trollish flavor, not that I object to trolldom- it has its charms- but i find myself thinking, "someone really needs to chill"

regards
david

Now that's the sort of post i like. Reads like something an Ivy League grad student would suggest

I'm so bummed i'm missing reunions this year. Only missed two during the last 20.

regards

david

My thoughts exactly.

I could not agree more.

This is all very true Tom and worth repeating. It is a pity if someone uses poor behaviour as a tactic to see if they can get a thread closed.

The sort of post that begins with something along the lines of "I don't care if this thread gets closed down but I can't resist saying something offensive" would have to be among the most antisocial. One despairs of that sort of self-indulgence.

Please, if you are going make a comment or opine on something I said, be a bit more circumspect. I do not regard myself in the same universe as the the gentlemen I mentioned. My reference was an appreciation for the sardonic humor and the societal observation they bring to the fore.

As to my reason for this thread...A gentleman opened a thread in CHATTER about a degrading of the civility, in general, on FPN. I started this thread to better understand the interpretation of the guidelines by those who do the interpretation. I stated throughout my posts this is my intention. I DO NOT LIKE to have to put disclaimers fore and aft on things I write, fearing if I do not I will offend someone. But if there is backchannel chicanery and "palace intrigue" I will do so, if only to protect myself.

To the persons who have taken the the time and effort to respond to me...I again thank you for your measured and valuable contribution. On reflection, I feel much better about posting. If an Administrator takes a disliking to me or if a Moderator paints a target on my back and singles me out for elimination...well, so be it.

And if an individual member decides to misinterprete or slant what I say to his or her own devices, again, so be it...

I think the issue more is what if your opinions and observations do offer value but are going to either be censored, removed or attacked?





That is not necessarily true. You can behave in a decent and polite manner but have an opinion that differs from others and get scads of rubbish in return.

Kurt

It's appalling how often some people will respond with ridicule or insult to polite posts that disagree with their views. I hope those people are not parents.

And I want to confirm that I was not talking about the admins/mods but other posters vis. rubbish.

Kurt

Ditto. In my limited experience the moderators have been -- moderate.

Just discovered this interesting thread. Oh, dear! I may be guilty of spending 90% of my time in Chatter lately ----- although I have managed to stay out of trouble, I think. It's not that I've lost interest in pens - it's that if I spend too much time reading about pens, I'll buy more of them!

Seriously, I rather enjoy Chatter, but I can see that it may be a big pain for the mods and admins so if it has to go, I'll adjust.

Judybug

Judy you're not alone. I spend most of my time in Chatter too and the reason is that it is the fastest moving and most varied forum. A post in most of the other areas is likely to languish for hours or even days before it attracts a mate, whereas Chatter is constantly bubbling along. The threads in the pen related areas can get a little repetitive... yes Pelikan nibs can be hit or miss and Chartpack/Pam/Richard will look after you, yes the gold Lamy nibs are a little springier than the steel, yes the Safari/ M200/ Phileas is a great pen for the money, yes Florida Blue flows very well etc etc.

Likewise, I browse the rest far more intently when I'm in a shopping frame of mind. I particularly enjoy the reviews and photography pages - both wonderful places to spend some time... but Chatter is best.

Well folks, I have an idea. Why don't y'all volunteer to help moderate Chatter. Gives you an excuse to be there all the time , and your interest in it should bring a strong desire to see it continue - but under control. I'm pretty sure the current mods could use some assistance.

Regards,

Gerry

I have offered to moderate but as yet have not been contacted.

Kurt

From your rolling eyes should I infer there is something wrong with spending more time there than elsewhere? I don't understand the problem. If anything, the popularity of the Chatter section is an FPN success.

The line is fine between free speech and decency and tolerance and good manners. I was born in the mid 50's when everything was Ozzie and Harriet. Women were seen and felt and not heard. Politeness, manners, white gloves, Jackie Kennedy pillbox hats. The anything goes attitude is the rule these days. Language can be harsh with short four letter spellings and impulsive, immediate gratification thinking occurs more and more. I think in general people are meaner to each other for various reasons. We haven't been taught protocol or forgotten protocol like older parents used to teach their children. We have more stressors in our lives than our parents, especially now with all the challenges in our lives.

In the big picture, we should count our blessings that we have electricity, have computers, are literate, have homes, and food to eat, have the luxury of freedom of speech. For the sake of community and good will, moderation may imply blahness and loss of color. Use personal email for "those"conversations or write a letter or hit your journals. Use your fountain pens and write.

When I see what has happened to others around in the news, my angst about buying a $100 flex nib italics pen or a $250 pen seems pretty silly. I solved the pen purchase with a donation to International Relief.

I love the posts with humor, photos, compassion, and education.

Wanda

OK. I volunteer (ducking) .

I'm sure my gentle perspective and wisdom-in-most-things would be of great help.

d

Ha! I'm sure you'd do a better job than me.

I volunteered a while ago while Skyping with Jim Strutton and only got some severe choking and spitting noises on the other end before the line went dead....

Yes I think the 'club' is far too lofty for the likes of us. as the flippant admin post would indicate.

Kurt

As another who posts more in Chatter than elsewhere, I'd like to suggest that for newbies, Chatter is probably a more accessible area to make one's voice heard. We are all here for the fountain pens, no doubt, but there is very little I can say about them which hasn't already been said by others who know far more about the subject than I do. But it seems odd to simply lurk on the forums and never say anything, so I've posted on topics in Chatter. I may still be learning about fountain pens, but there are other topics on which I have greater knowledge, and about which I am not as hesitant to speak.

However, also thanks to FPN, most of my more banal blathering has been taken off-line via the snail-mail and postcard exchanges. As indicated by earlier responses in this thread, some members have greater tolerance for off-topic conversation.

Perhaps a little explanaton is in order.

My post was never intended to be, nor was it in fact, flippant. It immediately followed two posts from Judybug and DavidM1 stating that they spent a great deal of their time - if not a majority of it, in Chatter. Suggesting they consider moderating seemed reasonable to me at the time...even if it was in a lighthearted manner.

The rolling eyes immediately follow the second sentence - 'Gvies you an excuse to be there all the time', and also seemed appropriate to that thought. No deeper intent implied. Perhaps a wink would have been better, but one doesn't spend a great deal of time agonizing over smilies.

Anyway, reading the posts following mine, I thought perhaps too much was being inferred, and wanted to correct the impression - or at least indicate my intent.

Sorry for the interruption. Back to regular programming.

Regards,

Gerry

Gerry, I hope I am not stiring up the mud water Or you need to explain........... This is truly a example
Everytime or everything said here will fall back just one feel in-approprite And there goes another one explaining....... (hope I need not have to do that. ) if user would takes as what you said "lighthearted manner"

Sorry but as an admin anything you write has a greater weight than a regular poster.

You hold the keys to heaven and hell here.


Humorous comments can be interpreted as words from a burning bush

Kurt

Kurt - as my wife has observed - most everything about me has a greater weight than a regular poster... but a little attention to diet and exercise will go a long way to addressing that problem.


The problem is that I keep forgetting which one is which, when I can even find them Kurt...

They just don't pay me enough for all this responsibility...

[Weeps in despair...]



From what I understand, in some quarters at least, a burning bush wouldn't all that bad...., but being Canadian, I'm not that involved in the question, don't know the issues, would sit on the fence in any case, and would always finish any prophecy or divine guidance with eh! - like in - "Why don't y'all volunteer to help moderate Chatter, eh?". Now *that* I can see being viewed as being a commandment...

I would like to take the opportunity to thank Fibreglass Works for his input, which, if I understand correctly, is suggesting that people try to generally view posts in a positive manner. If they appear to be lighthearted, please give the poster the benefit of the doubt and assume that they were meant to be lighthearted. There's little to be lost by doing so, and a lot less churn results.

It takes special people to see the best in members posts, to work with the situation to find an amicable solution, to avoid confrontation where possible, and that's what we're looking for in our search for future Mods and Admins.

Warm regards,

Gerry

Sometimes it works to pretend to be a little too dense to understand you've been insulted and the other poster tones it down a little. When he just responds that you're dense you can probably assume he's not trying to have a friendly discussion.

Tempers of even the most polite posters flair occasionally, but most of them have such a consistent record of considerate behavior that it shouldn't be a problem to ignore the occasional sharp response.

Gerry --- I certainly didn't take any offense at your light-hearted post suggesting that those who hang out in Chatter volunteer to moderate it. Even the rolling-eye smilie didn't bother me. But I have sense enough to know I'm not fit to be a moderator. I would probably assume the role of a "Miss Manners" and ax anyone who was rude or vulgar. Then someone would question my definition of "rude and vulgar" and ------ well, it just wouldn't work. I'll try to step up my donations to FPN. Maybe if enough people donate, a solution can be found that won't involve having somebody like me as a moderator.

Judybug