I see few threads posted by self proclaimed newbies asking for help with pens for them.
And that made me think,its obvious what most newbies would want in a pen-the highest quality for the least money and that will be user friendly and reliable.
But are there pens that you would concider for the hardcore experienced/advanced user ?

If there is such a pen to such a weird deffinition I think it probably would be a more expensive pen.
I think a pen that will match such a description would be some rare vintage pen that somebody new to the hobby will not know about and will not spend so much money when he/she can get a perfectly good new pen for 50$.
A pen like that might be maybe Parker Duofold Mandarin Yellow or even Parker Vacumatic Oversize/Maxima.

So those are pens with lowest quality for the most money and the least user friendly and least reliable???
Seriously I think the newbie just wants the benefit of our experience and basically wants the same things most of us do.

Fairly rare expensive pens seem to me more appropriate for serious (and well-heeled) collectors of vintage pens rather than experienced/advanced *users*. After all, most examples you'll find of the pens you cite have firm fine nibs and even the most inexperienced fountain pen user should be able to write easily with one. I suspect, however, that someone who bought a Mandarin Duofold (or equivalent) in mint condition wouldn't use it at all.

The only pens I think would benefit from being handled by an experienced *user* are those with unconventional nibs - full flex, wet noodles, italics (especially crisp italics), obliques, music nibs, etc., which require a bit more skill to use than regular firm nibs with round tips. But there's no need to spend much on these (though of course you can).

(It's probably more accurate to say that hardcore collectors aren't so much a subset of users as an overlapping category of pen buyers....)

Simon

I would consider the professional calligraphers to be the "advanced hardcore" users; as such they may not even use fountain pens, but rather dip pens with a variety of nibs designed to work different scripts.

But if the definition merely means, "rich dilettante with pen cases to fill", then any old piece of celluloid or gold will do.

So what you are trying to say is that I over complecate what basicly is a very simple matter and turn it into a long thread.
Hmmm I think you got a point here

I would think it's like sports cars. A good Alpha shouldn't start in the morning until you've had a good standup, knockdown screaming argument with it. These new models that start as soon as you think the thought 'Start', and drive like a warm knife through butter, where you can't hear the engine or gearbox are no fun at all.

It should be the same with fountain pens. A pen that was butter-smooth from the beginning, that writes perfectly with any ink from Diamine Aqua to stale coffee is no fun.
An advanced hardcore user's pen will only write with a custom mix of Parker Blue-Black with Solv-X, Noodler's Eel Blue and a touch of PR Ultra Black, onto hand-made cotton rag paper. It will have an esoteric filling mechanism that will require a week's worth of evening classes by the vendor to fully grasp. The nib will have at least two sweet spots, one for normal writing and one for italic. The normal sweet spot will be achieve by posting the cap with the clip aligned with the middle of the nib, and the italic by aligning the clip to the left of the nib.

that sounds awesome! I want one--where do I sign up?!

[

Au contraire. I always like the questions you pose, goodguy. They are often the things I wonder about.

Alright dcwwaites, you're overstimulated. Let's get some beer into you, and then it's off to bed...

I try to keep my blood caffeine level at least to 20% by volume...

Also, I'm not to sure what time zone Melbourne is running on, but it's midday here in Sydney...

Melbourne = GMT +10.

You forgot to mention silicone grease. Every pen that is fit for the hand of a hardcore user must be sealed or otherwise lubricated with silicone grease. The conversion of a Snorkel into a pen that you can also use as a pipe might be a good project to demonstrate the pinnacle of silicone grease application.

What's more, the pen cannot be perfectly smooth-writing; that makes it boring for lack of a soul. It cannot catch on the paper; that indicates the cosmic decline of manufacture in today's computer-plagued world and the rise of general intolerance of decent craftsmanship. It must have a perfectly crafted toothy spot that allows you to communicate with the pen better (you nod while writing, since the pen is clearly nodding at you human-like).

If the pen hasn't accompanied you on a climb to the top of some airless mountain in winter to have its nib reground by the solitary, hallucinating, and ingenious nib guru who lives there (he can make a regular nib into a flex-italic-needlepoint-broad), it doesn't really write properly and doesn't deserve a place in your holster. See Richard Binder's website for directions. Take two compasses.

Your best writer also happens to have killed a man. In fact, you have put a notch on it - but in chalk as to avoid damaging the celluloid.

You've found that your best writer works well as a weapon, but only when the cap is posted with the clip turned a certain way. Just like one of the sweet spots on the nib.

Best,
Summer Greer

The pens for advanced hardcore users cost somewhere in the 3 to 5 figure range and must be wrapped in more money and sent to a nibmeister who can make them write properly.

Paddler

Hardcore?

Probably some quill.

The answers so far seem to be either sardonic or ironic as opposed to serious...

I think the advanced hard-cord user, by the time s/he got to that level, would have defined his/her specifications pretty tightly with regards to nib confirmation and performance, pen weight and width, make/model, flow characteristics, nibmeister (for mods, as needed). Thus the purchase could be either vintage or new and still meet the criteria.

I don't know I am really hard core or not. I use an FP for just about all my writing. Thinking of all my pens, I would choose a Pel, a Vac, a P51, a Carene, an Imperial or a Snork (or some variation on the last two, such as a Intrigue, PFM or Legacy) as my pen of choice. My Pels are 150s and 2xx series, by the way.

In a pinch, an Estie might sneak in as well. Thus, I would think a hard core user might opt for the experience rather than the pen, as such.

Just an opinion...

No way!

I think that an "advanced" pen would just be one that is too much of an expense for someone who is not certain that their interest in fountain pens is serious. One might consider a difficult to care for pen one for a more advanced user as well.

Except for Rotring Skynn ballpoints.
I had a Skynn that was a beautiful sick puppy poo yellow/brown colour.
(Anybody who has had to clean up a runny poo disaster from a sick puppy knows that colour, and the smell... )
I put diver's silicone grease on the barrel threads because they were a bit rough.
The silicone attacked the soft bulgy bit, rendering it into sticky jelly, and making the pen unusable.

Ahh you touched a warm spot in my heart.
At the good old days I used to wake up go to my lovely Alfa start her up and here those wonderful 4 WEBER carbutarors sing to me "Good Morning".
When I needed to get those cleaned (and it happened to often) my mechanic took them apart and he had a BIG bucket full of carburetors port in it.
I like pen that have character just like my Alfa's.Maybe thats why I like using Italian pens

Thank you.
This is the nicest compliment I got here

My answer to the original question would have to be no. There are just fountain pens, most with their own personality. Everyone must find the one that is right for them.

Hmmm... interesting question. I would say that an experienced user's new pen should have the following criteria:


Pen Body: should be made of an interesting material, such as ebonite, lacquered metal, one of the natural resins, an unconventional wood, or something etched/chased/painted; basically something that takes the barrel "to the next level".

Trim: should be made of a precious or special metal to the user's liking, for instance sterling silver, or rose gold. Or alternatively -- no trim at all! But the point is, something outside of the plain-old options.

Pen Size and Shape: should be ideal for the preferences that the user has figured out for him/herself. If the user has noticed a tendency towards flat-tops over time, the pen should be a classic flat top; if the user prefers large pens, then the pen should be huge, etc.

Nib: The nib should be interesting, and take things up a notch. A flex, cursive italic, oblique, or stub, custom ground by one of the sought-after nibmeisters.

Filling System: An internal filling system, such as piston, crescent, lever, or eye-dropper, depending on user preferences.

Customisation: If any aspect of the pen allows customisation, this is an added bonus. Nakaya, bespoke Conway Stewart, and the overlay designs by Harry Simpole, are some examples of makers that offer customisation options.

So those would be my criteria if I were to get a gift for the experienced pen user. Last year I did something like that for my husband (who is also a FP user), and he is quite happy with the result. I don't think that the pen necessarily needs to be over-the-top expensive with the criteria I listed. But it certainly can be, if the person has the means.

QM2

I think back to my earliest fountain pen days. I started (gifted) with a MB 144. I promptly set aside the converter and popped in a cartridge (not even considering or searching for bottled ink). My first 'real' pen was a Waterman Phileas with converter. That's when I began taking an interest in other facets of FP ownership. Then came the lever fillers, piston, EDs, etc.

My definition of "hardcore" then would be moving to the next level (as described) that requires somewhat advanced awareness & knowledge. Then comes pen finishes/materials -- ex. urushi, casein, etc. Additionally, vintage models -- sleeve-fillers, snorkels, etc. There's a bit more care and feeding required.

IMO, I don't; however, think that "expensive" necessarily means "hardcore" (unless we're talking about collecting large numbers of pens). IMO, "hardcore" FP users know their pen. I've seen many a person buy an expensive item only 'cuz it was exactly that: expensive. I'd use a different moniker for that type of individual...smile.


Nice question.

Paul

Should have added: certainly agree w/QM2's input.

How about an Onoto plunge filler? That won't work at all unless you set the ink flow correctly.

The really serious users keep a flock of geese.

Alfas don't have 4 Webers, they have 2 double barrelled carbs (unless you are fortunate enough to be driving an Alfa Montreal). But you did spell 'Alfa' right

This is a pic of 6 Webers, not 12.......

REALLY serious users write with the geese.

Well these are 2 sets of carburators but they work completle independently.
The old engine I had in my Alfa before I suped it up had one single double carburator.

Oh you mean they take the gooses beek dump it in ink and write with it.
Hmm that sounds complicated and very disturbing to the goose

Yup - which is why I said there were 2 carbs, not 4 as you stated. This mistake is not uncommon by any means, but I do find it a bit odd that people seem more prone to counting intake venturis and calling them carbs on Webers than they are on American carbs, where you almost never see anyone calling a 4 barrel '4 carbs'.

Here is another one - how many carbs are there....?

Preferable to using the other side of the goose's body.

The answer is quite obvious. A Parker "51" in one of the less common colors and cap styles.

Andy

I think that new-person pens are more generalized, while an advanced pen would be more tailored to the likes of the user. The noobs need a pen that works, while experienced users have the breadth of knowledge to select their own perfect, personalized pen. Advanced users would know what nib size, brand, nib flexibility, metal, size, weight and other factors they want in a pen. I doubt anyone would say to a newbie "Go out, get a sheaffer valor, and have the nib reground to an italic."

Three 2 barrels, center is used as the primary, other 2 act as secondaries

Well done, sir.

You must be a Chrysler fan! Although you may note that it is not in a Chrsyler auto.....

Been on corvetteforum since I was 13. All my 3x2 knowledge comes from 1967-1969 L71 Tri Powered Corvette owners =D
That's not a Jensen Interceptor is it?

Nope, but close, and the answer should appeal to a Corvette nut. It is a 1965 Jensen CV-8, the previous model to the Interceptor and around 700 lbs. lighter by virtue of using a fibreglass body.

I am advised (by people with little taste ) that they are of dubious styling merit, but they do kind of grow on you when you own one.

Well, I am one of the old guys and I am well versed in my preferences. My zoom-zoom car is an old 1977 Corvette. I have a garden variety GM ZZ-4 engine in it with a regular old Holley 4bbl carb. The tranny is a simple hardened 700R4. The car weighs about 3,400 pounds with my fat arse sitting in it. The engine dynos at about 325 hp and 390 lbs of torque, so it comes fairly close to the 1 hp per 10-pounds of body weight necessary to be a "muscle car." It is certainly all an old fool like me needs. It is a fun car, and I enjoy it.

After 50 years of FP use, I guess likewise I am a vintage user of pens (in contrast to a user of vintage pens). I don't know if I would call myself "advanced." I like to think that experience has taught me to have some common sense. I feel I have some idea of what a good pen is. Hence, I am as likely to use a Lamy Safari as I am a MontyB 149 or a Delta LE. When I suggest a FP to a beginner, I try to recommend a pen that he/she will might enjoy using now, and keep for many decades along with more expensive pens.

I think this is a wonderful question deserving of a serious (non-automotive) answers.

It seems that this forum is patronized by many newbie or beginner collectors who are eager not to make early mistakes or to share initial impressions and experiences. But it is a wise newbie that asks advanced collectors what they really value over time.

I began collecting in the 1980's, when there was almost no information, no shows, no books and no repair services (or even materials). ON the other hand, most pens could be purchased for $5-20, and there was nothing in the world (other than fabled Snake pens and solid gold/silver MB's) that cost more than $500.

I made many early mistakes, buying attractive but common or lesser quality pens when I could have bought the great classics. But I was lucky enough to meet up with another collector, Brad Torelli, who guided me to what in his estimation were the great pens. Because of him, I bought early Dorics, rare 51's, 40's and 50's MB's, rare demonstrators and many other classics.

over time, as many of the posters have suggested, I have come to value more and more pens with special nibs that suit my writing, but also have that magical combination of smoothness and toothiness, spring and firmness. there are some better than others in a universal sense. I've also come to appreciate pens that post well and balance well generally, as well as for my hand. Also, quality and ease of repair matter more in the long run. I had a rare 58 vette in regal turquoise with fuel injection. An amazing car, except when it overheated in traffic jams or left me on the side of the freeway in questionable areas late at night. Don't have that car any more, and though I occasionally miss it, I also remember that endless frustration of trying to get it to run just right.

In that regard, let me offer newbies a few pen suggestions for things that I keep returning to, and that will undoubtedly retain their value and keep rewarding their owners long after the gaudy limited editions and flashy new pens have lost their value.

1. Double Jewel Parker 51's with classic caps (heritage, empire, watermelon, 14k). Beautiful, bulletproof, wonderfully balanced, stable plastic, relatively uncommon and great to write with, particularly with less common stub nibs.
2. Parker 51 flighters. Great classics, virtually indestructable, amazing design, undervalued relative to above.
3. Waterman lever fill and eyedropper overlays. Cheaper today than I remember then in the early 90's, wonderfully nouveau/Edwardian design, stable hard rubber and some of the best flex and semi-flex nibs ever. I'm returning to these as just great.
4. Early Dorics: despite being largely copied, never equalled for sheer beauty of design and execution. Not the most practical pen, with unstable/deteriorating plastic and delicate cap lips, but a great classic and also selling for basically what they did 20 years ago. True, the early 90's OMas Paragon is a high quality copy, with some decent nibs, and the arco plastic is as beautiful as anything Eversharp ever made, but it lacks the design refinement of the original. BTW, I think the 90's Paragon will become a collectible classic in it's own right but there are some quality issues with inner cap, section...
5. Waterman Patricians. unbelievable detail, beautiful plastics, wonderful in the hand, great nibs. But delicate, hard to find parts for, still expensive--but also not much more than 20 years ago.
6. Oversize early vacumatics. Classic design, again, perhaps undervalued due to the many copies and the relative commoness of the model generally. Great in the hand, great to write it if you don't mind the Parker classic straightforward, not very flexible nib. hence the high value for uncommon flexible and stub nibs.

There are many other classics also available for moderate amounts, from ink-vue deluxes to celluloid MB's in smaller sizes. Other collectors will undoubtedly offer their own favorites. There are others, for example, oversize Sheaffers of the 20's and 30's (and esp. 40's), that are still very undervalued relative to their quality, because for the most part they are not pens that attract many advanced collectors.

It seems that the hobby is divided between extremely advanced collectors who started in the 80's and early 90's, and relative newbies of the last few years. The opportunities right now, for smart newbies who do want to leapfrog ahead, is to buy the great classics that older collectors already have. Let the advanced collectors pay astronomical sums for rare and obscure things, as they seek to complete their collections or generate new interest in a long-pursued hobby.

The important thing is, that with good information and patience and prudent choices, the newbie collector can purchase wonderful pens for $500 or less that are as good as anything available at any price.

especially if you go to the shows and develop relationships with experienced collectors and dealers, who will be happy to guide you, offer you advice and maybe even sell you one of their favorites.