Hi everyone,

I find myself needing some permanent ink. Either black or blue/black. Nice and dark and waterproof etc etc...you know the drill.

In recent months, I find myself filling out a lot of important forms. Mother dearest suggests I use a ballpoint pen instead of a fountain pen to fill out these forms, as fountain pen ink will smear and stain if the paper gets wet in the mail. I despise ballpoint pens. They make my hands hurt. And I'd much rather use a fountain pen or dip-pen to get the job done.

Now you know why I need permanent ink. Given the criteria above (nice and dark) - what would you suggest?

Also - What is Noodler's Permanent Black like? And where would I be able to find it in Melbourne? I can find inks pretty easily in Melbourne, but not all the time...it's annoying. Also, how does one test if ink really is permanent?

While I'm relatively new to the world of 'boutique' inks, it's my understanding that if you want something truly waterproof and permanent, Noodler's is pretty much your only choice. Their permanent inks bond to the cellulose in the paper so they can't be washed away. They also have a line of near-bulletproof inks where only one of the colors is permanent and the others will wash away.

If you take a look at the ink review forum here, you can see samples of many of Noodler's ink including their bullet proof black. Personally, I don't really like black ink for forms because it doesn't stand out enough. So, based on the samples, I would take a look at Noodler's Aircorp Blue Black (near bullet proof) and their near bulletproof Blue Black.

Noodler's Black aside there is also Pilot's Security ink, Diamine's Registar Ink and MB's Blue-Black (Iron-gall) ink. J.Herbin makes security ink as well but it is only made for dip pens.

I understand that some blue-blacks/permanent inks can be damaging to fountain pens. I'll probably use this ink with a dip-pen. I have one particular nib which is both tough and consistent. It produces nice thin, even lines without any horrible blotching. I'll use that.

Noodler's Bulletproof Black is your best choice. Lives up to the hype, and that takes something special. It was my favourite black until I received the new and upcoming X-Feather.

As for Melbourne, the usual suspects don't seem to be carrying Noodler's! But try Dymocks, the Sydney stores carry Noodler's. Also, Pen City may still have it [though their website does not]. If you're unsuccessful, PM me.

I'll try and get Noodlers B/P black, then

When I get some free time (I am SO BUSY with university work right now. Nibs are melting under the heat generated from the writing I have to do!!) I'll stop by Pen City (that great little hole-in-the-wall shop in the CBD! ) and see if they have anything.

Anywhere else in Melbourne that might have it?

---

Forgot to ask: Is there anything I ought to know about Noodler's BP black? Is it safe to use in fountain pens? Safe to use in some fountain pens? Don't use it in fountain pens, keep to dip pens...? I have dip-pens, so I'm covered on that front if I need them.

Lamy, Quink or MB Blue-Blacks are iron gall inks. The only proven ones to last, but also there is concern about the damage to the nib. I've used them in the past for over 10 years, hardly flushing a steel nib, and it only shows slight color alteration, the truth. I've been planning to go back to this type of ink for archival reasons and not to worried about the nib if the rest of the pen is non metallic.

Hope your forms look nice!.

Not that I know of. Sydney keeps me too busy to visit that lovely city yet


The only 'problem' I know of is its viscosity/surface tension acting up with certain pens & converters: the ink reluctantly stays at the top; eventually, it may need some prodding. My Lamy Safaris do this, so I use syringe-filled cartridges Other than that, it's flawless. All the goodness of iron gall inks with no rust surprises or maintenance headaches.

I really like the Noodler's Black. It is currently the only black I'm using. At least for the first 80% of the converter-full, it is VERY well behaved.

I second the comments on surface tension; it does cling to the walls of the converter rather than run down to the feed. This is mainly a problem for the last 10-20% of the converter-full. Easiest solution is to refill early. If you have to use those last few drops, hold vertical and tap converter gently, or advance the piston downward pushing the ink down. (Watch the nib so you don't do it to the point of expelling ink).

Some of our experts say it can be more prone to clogging. I haven't had a problem, but I flush my pen every few fills. Also, I have only used it in converter pens. I could remove the converter and flush with an ear syringe (rubber bulb) if needed. I have not used it in my MB which is piston-fill and probably won't, but I have used it in several other pens, and always have at least one filled with it, mostly a Parker Sonnet.

The Noodler's Black does well with poor quality paper. With a fine nib, it even writes pretty well on newsprint, when most inks feather horribly. On original forms, this might be important.

I have been using Noodlers/Swishmix Eternal Nile Ebony without any issues for quite a while now. I've also recently started using Noodlers Bulletproof Legal Lapis and Violet Vote, and if anything these seem even better behaved (they both seem to flow a bit freer than the Nile Ebony). All of these are fully resistant to water . . . not only do they leave a permanent mark on the page, they are also quite resistant to releasing a 'smear' of ink when initially exposed to water (something you won't see with the 'near' bulletproof, since they lose part of their color).

I think Legal Lapis is a very nice conservative color for everyday use. It is rather dark blue with a hint of green.

Here are a couple scans from another thread I posted showing an over-time warm-water-soak comparison of Noodler's inks, and their initial reaction to getting wet . . .

Let me add that Heart of Darkness is a fully permanent Noodler's black. From what I've seen people who have used lots of Noodler's like this one for how it behaves in FPs.

I certainly like it a lot. Its my preferred black ink at the moment.

If you're really serious about using a dip pen and permanence is a priority for you, you could use india ink, you know, the kind with shellac in it. Pretty much bomb proof.

But for FP use, I agree with everyone else - Noodler's bulletproof black or one of the iron-gall blue-blacks from Lamy, MB, or Diamine.

As for safety - a quick search from just the last few days will give you sufficient diversity of opinion and experience . Myself, I restrict use of BP black to modern pens I can clean easily. But it's non-feathering/non-bleeding and very permanent.

I don't WANT to use a dip pen, I'm just saying I can, and will, if necessary

I just ran across a post saying that Noodler's is now available in Sydney, Australia. I know you've mentioned you're in Melbourne, but perhaps if you can't find it there, perhaps you could mail order.

I have recently begun using Noodler's Baystate Blue. It's not bulletproof, but it is waterproof. I don't know if it's really permanent enough for your purposes. I've also heard complaints that it can stain some pens, so read up on it before risking any highly-prized pens. I haven't used it long enough to give you a full review of it. I am actually only on my first converter of it. However, I can tell you that the color is a very vibrant blue, which I like for signatures and filling out forms.

I had this happen briefly in the piston converter for my Libelle Epic. Basically, I just flicked the side of the pen for a second and it went away.

One flick/refill is worth it for the peace of mind wrt my manuscripts, I think.

The ones that would be damaging are going to be ones that contain iron gaul in them. If you use that type of ink you want to use it in a pen with no metal parts exposed to the ink except a gold nib.

I hear, have not used, that Noodler's Eternal Black is quite resilient. I need to get some permanent ink in the foreseeable future and will probably be picking up a bottle of it.

-Zac

Daily writing and a weekly flushing out with a weak detergent and water solution will keep a non-gold nib pen in good working order while filled with an Iron Gall ink.

(I speak from experience.)

Yeap, as said before, even steel nibs seem to stand iron-gall inks pretty well, and I've been not that diligent on the flushing part. As said, Montblanc and Quink BB were my daily inks 20 years back, and the FP -steel nib- still standing in pretty good shape (Stypen French made). As for additional interesting info, see http://home.att.net/~numericana/answer/chemistry.htm. Hey, if Leonardo da Vinci and Rembrant used it for their work, is good enough for me, too.

Nathan T. has given it the highest permanent rating: bulletproof. I'm also very keen to try it out, not least because of the free Platinum Preppy pen


Yes, the <abbr title="Queen Victoria Building">QVB</abbr> shop has a dozen bottles of Black.


Absolutely

Quink? Quink Blue-Black is iron gall?

I popped into the QVB shop of PenUltimate the other day, and they did have some Noodler's. I was looking for blues, though, and didn't ask about Black.

I got an email back from Pen City in Melbourne last December saying that they did have Noodler's in stock. I would check with them, first.

Also Pepe's Paperie has Noodler's Black, and do mail order.

Certainly not the kind of Quink Blue-black I've got - that one fades even in....well, nothing. It fades even in a closed notebook and will certainly wash off with water. Maybe there's another one?

I do have the Lamy Blue-black (in the bottle, apparantly the cartridge version is not FG) and that one is very water-resistant.

Excuse me...did I hear that? Quink b/b is iron-gall? Is it safe to use? I have it all my pens!! *Panic-attack*

Was it before Saturday? The shop received a huge shipment that day, and now carries just about every colour available in Australia right now [except highlighter inks]


I strongly doubt it.

Quink? I have modern Quink blue-black and a 1940s bottle (full) and neither exhibits any iron gall traits at all. In fact, I believe Quink and Waterman's BB have been the same ink for some time now. I will be happy to stand corrected on the last part, it just seems silly for Newell to have two ink plants running in the same country (France).

My first choice for this kind of application is Noodler's Legal Lapis, but it's too "green" for many people. It's my favorite dark color.

For important papers, I prefer a non-black; I want it to be obvious where I wrote or signed, but not so obvious it's prone to fade. So if I wanted something darker, I'd probably add some Heart of Darkness (the only black I have) to Legal Lapis.

While some Noodler's and Mont Blanc's blue-black (an iron gall ink) will both fit your bill, there is another way to go altogether that might be easier, depending on your ability to find the inks you need. Any art supply store should have a narrow point permanent black felt tip marker. When I need to mark certain documents with archival information I sometimes use a Pigma Micron 05 felt-tip marker, which has acid-free archival black ink and a 0.45mm wide point.

One issue to be aware of with some Noodler's bulletproof inks -- especially if you opt for a dip pen -- is bleedthrough, which of course is an absolute no-no on 2-sided forms. You should be alright, though, with bulletproof Black (which has a slower flow than some of the other bulletproofs) and an F or finer nib. Maybe even an M nib would work.

Sorry having trouble sending what I wrote. Anyway, I was putting in my plug for Noodlers BP Black. I've been using it exclusively in my FP at work where I write all day (and night) in medical charts. I clean out my pen every 2-3 weeks when I start having flow problems (which I suspect is the pen's problem as much as an ink thing), but it works fine. The ink might as well be Sharpie marker as far as permanence goes...I have personal experience with cups of coffee spilling over charts...my BP Black is wholly unaffected, but all the other inks on the page (from various ball points and roller balls and such) blur to one degree or another.

It's all I use at work since I was given my first fountain pen in December 2007. I'm hooked and now I can't bring myself to use non-bulletproof ink!

Looks like Noodlers B/P black/blue-black is what I'm after then. Thanks, guys

Oh and Viseman, with regards to bleeding & dip-pens, I do have a rocker-blotter and paper. Will that suffice to prevent bleeding and/or feathering?

Iron Gall Inks

The three inks below are Irong Gall Inks so they are water and light resistant. I like them because they do not smudge. They require frequent rinsing of the pen. Don't let them dry out inside the pen.
The first two are closer to the blue spectrum of blue-black while the Diamine one ages into a colour closer to the black spectrum of blue-black.

Lamy Blue-Black
Mont Blanc Blue-Black
Diamine Registrar's Ink


Regular Ink

Noodler's black is a very good ink. Will resist water, sun etc. My only complaint is that it can still smudge when dry.


Mame

I have not had any problems with bleed-through on Noodler's black, even on standard notebook paper.

That's comforting!

Now I don't know what to say. I don't have any modern Quink BB, but the one I used continuosly 20 years back sure was. If the modern stuff is similar to todays' Waterman's BB, then is not, that one I've tried. And unfortunatedly keep no old Parker BB. But I've dug out old notes and tested under running water,and is got to be iron gall. But good to know today's one is not.
Sorry for the panic attack, Shangas, but Quink BB was my regular daily use while at the University and though I disliked the color to the limit, I used it as rain was a constant in my life back then.

This is absolutely the first time when I hear that parker Quink Blue-black is iron gall ink. I think it is not. Their catalogue says nothing about that iron-gall thing. But it is true that Lamy Blue-black and Montblanc Blue-black are iron-gall inks.

For a permanent blue, you'd want Upper Ganges Blue, yes, Noodler's....

-Bruce

Quink has a regular blue-black AND a permanent blue-black. I suspect the one that is iron gall would be the permanent one. I saw their permanent one in Staples recently and was going to buy it to try it out, but my wife was already pushing me to leave, quoting something akin to "Just how many bottles of ink do you ALREADY have???"

She only has so much patience with my various obsessions...

BTW, before even noticing this thread, I was out today and picked up two bottles of Montblanc blue-black from a local jeweller. It is my first foray into the MB line of inks. I find it doesn't flow quite as freely as the Noodler's in my Waterman Charleston, so it appears more as a fine nib with the MB ink (not necessarily a bad thing for work). I have been fighting to get a good blue-black (standard colour) permanent blue for work by mixing Noodler's LL and VV. It is close, but for work, I still prefer the traditional colours. My journal, on the other hand, has quite a selection of ink colours in it!

Chris

Hmm, not likely. Bleedthrough and feathering happen instantaneously (if they happen at all), so I don't think a blotter would help. But you should be OK if your pen has a somewhat restrained flow.

Good luck, and let us know how it turns out.

Damn. Well, when I have some free time (which won't be any day soon), I'll go and buy some Noodlers.

I'm sorry, I think you said that backwards. I think you mean "I suspect the permanent one is iron gall". Which is quite different. We know iron gall ink is permanent.

I have a bottle of Parker Quick Permanent Black, not Blue-Black, so I can't compare it to the Mont Blanc Blue-Black that _is_ iron gall.

I checked the reviews and it seems they are all about a non-permanent blue-black Parker Quink so I think we have to ask:

Can someone with Parker Quink permanent Blue Black comment on if it is either marked as iron gall or has warnings similar to iron gall ink, or just comment on if it goes on bluish and turns blackish after a day on the page? Please?

Parker do not use that word ”Permanent” anymore in Quink -inks. They have two washable colors, Washable Blue and Washable Black. Rest of their inks have just some name of color, like Blue, Black and Blue-black. My parker Quink Blue-black was sold in some kind of Blister-package that can be hanging on a hook. I threw away that Blister-packaging, but IIRC there was nothing about iron-gall in its text. Bottle itself has label that says just ”Parker Quink”. Color is indicated with background color of that label. Rest of my Parker Quink -bottles (Blue, Black and Red) came in a cardboard box and none of those boxes have text ”Permanent”.

If Parker Quink -ink ever had a text ”Permanent”, then it probably had nothing to do with water-proofness. I think it was about archival quality in normal archive where water is not an issue.

If you had care to cite all my post, this would be more clear, and I assume you did not read only my first one but also #36, because yours is #37. I appreciate you agree that Lamy and MB blue-blacks are iron-gall inks (as their labels state). As for Parker, the one I was refering to, and that I used 25 years back on daily use, is likely to have been, too, as the properties of written text are identical to the MB it was also used for same purposes. I.e., after exposed to U.V., water, etc. the text seems almost unaltered. But as I'm not always right, I asked others to chime in and say if today's blue-black ink is the same. I know Waterman is not, I repeat.

By the way, the definition of archival ink's qualities are;chemically stable, waterproof, and fade resistant. No smears, feathers, or bleed-through on paper, etc.

I have just googled "Parker Permanent ink". 555.000 results. It might be outdated data. Links to buy permanent blue-black:

http://www.shoplet.com/office/db/g16556.html
http://www.discountofficeitems.com/super-q...1_200237_113570
http://www.amazon.com/SANFORD-COMPANY-bott...1/dp/B0006SWBJE

Probably today's BB is not archival, as other kind fellow members have remarked, not waterproof but non fading, so is called permanent. But again, the one I used 25 years back, was.

Hi Shangas!

Pen City definitely stocks the standard Noodler's inks, although they don't list them on their website.

I've bought bulletproof Black from them before - I've found it somewhat better at avoiding bleedthrough than some of the "near bulletproof" inks (the category I think Blue-Black and Aircorp Blue-Black fall into).
It's also received quite a bit of water testing on this forum which has shown it to be safely waterproof.

Regards, Myles.

Thanks much, Myles!! I'll drop by there as soon as I can, and buy some Any idea how much it might cost?

Should be AUD 19.95, Shangas. Also, avoid Polar Black unless you're heading for Antarctica. It feathers like mad, while Standard Black doesn't.

Twenty bucks!? Jesus! Looks like I'll be doing a bit of saving up of money first...

This better be bloody good ink!!

For that price, you get around 85 mL — considerably more than most non-standard brands, and they're around $15–25 anyway. And yes, it is a very special ink

Thanks everyone for the information and advice

Tomorrow morning I am OFF! To Pen City in the CBD to try and secure some Blach Noodly Permanenta Inke. Wish me luck!