Hi all,

I've been reading without joining for a while now, but I've registered to ask this interesting question.

I recently bought a Parker 17 (eBay), and was surprised to find when I got it that, although it matches cosmetically, the cap doesn't match any description or photograph of any other 17 I can find.

I wondered if anyone knew about this? Let me describe it.

First, here are the photos of the pen:
Click to view attachment Click to view attachment

As on all 17s, The nib is hooded, the end is chamfered into a cone, and it has an aerometric press-bar filler. There are no markings on the barrel.

But the cap isn't the same as most 17s (for example here); it has a longer clip in a different arrow shape, the cap band extends right to the bottom, and the cap is topped in metal rather than just rounded plastic. The cap looks identical to this one, which is on a slimfold - but in burgundy red, of course.

So, have I been sold a Parker 17 with a Slimfold cap? Or was it common at some point to use these caps on 17s? The pen came in a box with a leaflet on how to fill a "Duofold, Victory and Slimfold transparent resevoir models" - but not specifically a 17. Does anyone have any info or thoughts?

I'd concur. The cap looks like no other P17 cap I've seen. I couldn't say if it's a Slimfold, but the styling is definitely not like any other P17 I've seen. The tassie shape is all wrong.

Regards

Richard.

This looks like a Parker 17 Lady to me. I am more than happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.

Been doing a bit more research, and saw this page.

Look at the information about the "slender" - this pen does have the "less costly “hoop” filler design" it talks about, and isn't capped in metal (in the same way the 51 slender isn't). On their own these wouldn't convince me, but the band on the body is the same one as on the 51 - not just a plain gold band, but with an indented ridge - so I think there's a good chance this might be a 51. 17s were based on 51s, so getting them confused isn't so hard to believe.

What do you all think? Is it possible I have a 51 Slender rather than a 17? I'm tempted to believe it, since I've never seen a 17 with this body band and there are so many other odd things about it.

Whippet: It certainly feels 'Lady' sized, but the 17 Lady never came with a cap like that, and I don' t think it had the ridged band either. (example).

Seems like a Lady to me - never seen a 51 anything like it ;-)
I have one with the broad band and the chalk marks

The cap looks similar to the Parker 45 Arrow caps. I have one of the aforementioned pens and that cap looks quite similar. Not sure I'd say they were one in the same, but they're similar.

-Zac

It is not a 51. The 51 had a metal cap with a totally different clip and jewel arrangement. The barrel was different, too. I owned a 51 Demi/Slender for 36 years, and it didn't look anything like the pen in question.

As for which 17 it might be, I leave that to English users, who may have grown up with 17s. I own a 17 Duofold, and that's not the pen in question, either. But this is an intriguing line of inquiry. Surely some of FPN's older users will recognize a pen that was quite popular when we were all younger.

Whippet,
The P17 Lady is a P17 that's just smaller. Quite a lot smaller, but it keeps the same lines & proportions and shape as the P17.

Regards

Richard.

Am I mistaken then in thinking the Parker 17 for men had a wide Gold band? I only ask as I have a Parker Lady in black which I believe is the same as the red pen posted here.I must admit I haven't checked, I simply forgot until now.

Longer barrel and taller cap, but band width was consistent with the Lady. The foundational pen of this post remains a mystery. Just to add to the data/confusion, is it a slip-cap or a screw-on?

Thanks for input all, and Ernst thanks for bringing it back!

I've now taken photos detailing each individual part. I'm going to try to outline each feature which might help to identify this, along with a picture to illustrate it. Here goes...

Whole thing - looks like a 17, and I thought it was until I noticed several odd things about it. Definitely Lady sized, as the body length is only 108mm (=4.25").Click to view attachment
Cap - almost certainly a 45 cap, though I do know this style was used on other models sometimes. Metal ended, band reaches to the very bottom, and arrow clip much longer than the famously short clip of the 17.Click to view attachment
Nib - slightly flexible (haven't written with it yet); gold or gold coated; fully hooded. Haven't tried to extract it from the hood so no more info.Click to view attachment
Filler - Hoop filler, with lettering "To fill, press ribbed bar at least 5 times". Click to view attachment
Band on body - gold band with a groove running all the way round it.[/b]Click to view attachment
Barrel - tapered to a cone-point. The cone end has a small hole in it like most aerometric fillers. No stamp or etching.Click to view attachment

So, there are points for both sides. I was convinced it was a 17 Lady until I noticed the band on the body coupled with a snippet of info from Richard's Pens dot com. I've never seen a body-band like this on a 17, nor on anything exept a 51 or a 61. The snippet of info was this:



Compare the picture to accompany this snippet to a picture of this pen - apart from my bad photography and the colour, there's not much in it. Click to view attachmentClick to view attachment

So, this is why I think this may well be a 51. Of course, the 17 was based on the 51, so aren't the small differences (like the body band) the defining features? Now you have all the info, what do you all think?

What you have is the sad but true last version of the Parker 17. The last generation of the parker 17/slimfold was this P45 looking cap. Very sad. Very Very Sad.

Nope, it is definitely not a Parker 51. And, why is it sad?

I agree with lairddouglas's identification. The last series of (pre 1980) Duofolds and 17s had the P45 type cap. The main differences with the earlier models are the clip/tassie and the gold band right on the rim of the cap.


Why very sad? Well I suppose it dilutes the distinctive style of the Duofold and 17 ranges - devalueing them as just a variant of the Parker 45.

I hope I am not beating a dead horse here, but there are several points possibly worth noting. First, the Parker 17 line did not begin with hooded nibs. It began with open nibs. I own the first of the line, manufactured 1962-64, I am led to believe. It is called a 17 Duofold. It has a lovely open nib, as do Parker Duofolds.

It's true that most Britons are familiar with the hooded-nib 17s, because Parker manufactured many more of them. But the line began as a modification of the Duofold line. It is not "based on" the 51, although the hooded nib was presumably adopted to imitate in a small way the Parker 51. Half the pen manufacturers of the 1950s and 1960s offered hooded-nib pens in those years. Including Pelikan and Montblanc and Aurora. To capitalize on the popularity of the Parker 51.

They weren't 51s. A Hero 616 resembles the Parker 51, outside and inside, more closely than any of the Newhaven Duofolds or 17s do. For that matter, the Parker 51 Special Edition is "based on" only the exterior of the Parker 51, though it is far from resembling the inner anatomy of the 51.

It is also true that Richard Binder, in his account of the 51, mentions the hoop filler. But the hoop filler is in no sense peculiar to 51s; it also appeared on the U.S.-made Parker 21, 41, and Super 21, and possibly other models I'm not thinking of at the moment; and on most if not of all the "Aerometric" Duofolds manufactured beginning in 1952 in England. My Duofold Jnr has that hoop filler. As does my 17 Duofold. Parker used them all over the place.

As for the 51-style clutch ring, I would happily defer to some well-informed Briton. That wasn't peculiar to the 51, either; I used to own a Super 21 with that type of clutch ring. Which Newhaven pens it may have been used on I cannot say, not having passed my youth in England.

It does look like a pleasant pen, I am told that the 17s wrote smoothly, and I wish the original poster well of his purchase. A little too small for me, but otherwise I might buy one myself.

Hi Vermiculus et al,

I hope that I can help sort out a few things here, to those that know about it this will sound like teaching grandma to suck eggs or whatever, I have no intention of sounding patronising or anything remotely like that, I apologise in advance should it come across that way., The information below is based on years of experience, many pens and copies of several reference books open in front of me

The pen is sort of a version of the Parker 17 but not quite, it is a continuation of the 17 line but at the far end of it. The 17 started out as an open nib pen in 1962 as the 17 Duofold in 'Standard' and 'Super' trim levels, it was intended as a cheaper to make version of the Duofold Junior( push on cap/springy clutch ring against having to thread both both cap and barrel) designed for use by students etc, the hooded nib came a couple of years later, it is no relation to the 51, hooded nib yes but not tubular, it has a small but otherwise standard type feed not a collector, etc, etc, etc ......no relation at all other than that they were both made by Parker.

This '45' cap style was used on late models of the Lady (not marked 17 Lady, just Lady) from about 1968 on, the same pattern cap was used on the last models of the Slimfold, Junior and Duofold at about the same time to fit in with the look of the 45 to try to unify and update the appearances of the basic ranges, the New Slimfold from 1972 used the same nib as the 45, the transistional model 68-72 used the old style Slimfold nib and the new style cap and rounded barrel end.

The Lady, not 17 Lady from 1968, had a clutch ring and press fit cap of the 45 pattern, the Slimfold used a screw fit cap. The Lady 68- had a thinner slightly longer and more tapered barrel shape than the 17 Lady and used a different clutch ring, the 17 Lady's being white metal and with no central dip rather than gold coloured with a dip as seen in this pen, the perts are not interchangeable. The barrel on the vast majority of 17 Lady models is imprinted 17 Lady, the later Lady did not carry an imprint as a rule to match the 45 etc besides it removed one operation from the production process and kept the costs down.

For those who have a copy of Andy Lambrou's Fountain Pens Vintage and Modern (1989 edition) the 17 Lady and the Lady pens (capped) can be seen in the illustration on page 131

Hope this helps,

Cheers, John

Not wishing to add to the confusion, but is this one wrong too? I ask as it appears to have a wide gold band.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/VINTAGE-PARKER-17-SU...tem380014115225

I don't know what Whippet means by "wrong too." The original poster's pen was advertised as a Parker 17. It is a Parker 17 in some late-version form. In that sense, it isn't wrong.

The pen referred to by Whippet, on eBay, is described in the large headline on top as a Super 17 Duofold. From looking at the nib I'd say it's a Super 17. The word "Duofold" isn't right, but to look at this charitably the seller says "Super 17" lower down in his advertisement.

The 17 Duofold, regular or Super, had an open nib. The Super 17, Duofold or not, had a wide cap band. If the pen on eBay had an open nib it would indeed be a Super 17 Duofold. As things are it has a hooded nib and a wide cap band, which makes it a Super 17.

They were more expensive than the same model with a narrow cap band. My own 17 Duofold has the narrow cap band, but if I'd been living in England when those pens were made I might have splashed out a little extra for a richer-looking pen. Or possibly not.