I have just received this little beauty to augment my Victory/Duofold 1940's collection.
Been looking for a lizard pattern for years and finallly found one!
It is a Valentine made in the NS Duofold style with the lizard pattern plastic.
The arrow doesn't have feathers and the nib is Valentine 14k.
And it is a button filler double jewel.
The barrel is stamped Sunset.
Very pretty and now I want more ;-)

Nice find, Skybird! Those Valentine pens are interesting, and it's hard to go wrong with a Newhaven nib. They're fun. Huge tipping, most of the time.

<center><img src="http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a383/ttobbaa/parker/valentine/nationalsecgroup.jpg">
<img src="http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a383/ttobbaa/parker/valentine/nationalsecgroup2.jpg"></center>

That pen sure has made its way around- I think it came to me here in California from Spain before it went to Roger and then to you Down Under.

It is an interesting pen, to be sure, but I do not believe it is a Valentine (I mentioned this to Roger, and I guess he disagreed, as he listed it as a Valentine on Penopoly). I collect Valentines and have quite a few- the following is my argument against it being a Valentine (wrote most of this about 2 years ago in an exchange with Sarj):

I've never seen a Valentine in this configuration before- that could mean nothing more than that I've never seen a Valentine in this configuration before, but it suggests that it's no Valentine. (if that makes sense)

Clip is totally non-Parker. The cap tassie is a seperate piece- not a 1-piece tassie-clip set-up like every sinlge English Parker or Valentine pen I've ever handled. Top jewel is recessed- I have seen this in Summit/Curzon pens, as well as in pictures of some National Security pens. Clip is a Dead ringer for a Stephens pen- given that Stephens had its pens made for it by contract manufacturers, it doesn't necessarily point to Stephens, but it gets us further from Valentine.

Barrel imprint- "SUNSET PEN"- that's it. NOTHING else (I looked pretty hard). No Valentine I have has an imprint like that- they ALL say "THE VALENTINE PEN CO LTD" and "MADE IN ENGLAND", even the ones that strike me as being "earlier" than the Parker Victory-style Valentines.

Blind cap won't fit on any Parker or Valentine I have- different threading. The tassie is very, very close, but unquestionably different from any Parker tassie I own. That they could use parts that were similar but completely non-interchangeable goes against my experience with Parker/Valentine pens (all parts interchangeable).

Section doesn't match up with any Valentine I own nor does it match any of my English Parkers. Totally different profile, but I've noticed that the sections of Parkers and Valentines are very, very similar to one another.

Actually, I do have one section that is close:

<center><img src="http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a383/ttobbaa/parker/valentine/valnibs001.jpg"></center>

The only thing about it that suggests Valentine to me, really, is the nib.

Valentine is suspected to have made pens for National Security, largely copies of Duofolds and Valentine pens. This clip DEFINITELY appears on some Stephens pens, though that doesn't exclude it from appearing on others pens- Stephens was another out-sourcer with parts likely acquired from and assembled by Lang (main source for all this is Jim Marshall's article on English pens in the Spring 2003 Pennant).

All in all, I'm not left with the impression that this is a Valentine. Sure, there was plenty of incest in the English pen-making world in and around the time of the second World War, but too many styling cues point elsewhere- plus, why would Parker/Valentine bother to make parts that resembled their own but still had siginifcant differences? I think that the nib is, unfortunately, a later replacement.

It's an interesting pen, and the plastic is quite cool and probably rare, but in the end, I think it's a Frankenpen. I can certainly see where it would be honestly mistaken for a Parker/Valentine, but am dead certain that it isn't. I could be wrong, but I really doubt it.

Valentine did make pens before its association with Parker, true. This pen is some kind of Vac clone, which puts it 1933 or later. I think Valentine was already in bed with Parker at that time- making pens for them, but not owned by Parker yet. My biggest problem with this being a Valentine: Why go through the effort of designing something similar (but different) instead of using common parts?

Andy

Thanks for that - NOT

Umm, I'm sorry? Not sure what you would have liked to hear here...

If you're hoping to collect the precursors to English Parkers (I do), then I think this might not have been the item you were hoping it was.

If you like this pen, and want more like it, then looking for more Valentines like this might not be the way to get more of them...

Not trying to be a buzz-kill here, I'm trying to help. If this is not the actual pen that I sold to Roger Cromwell in December '06, then, man, I lost out. But, looking at it, it appears to be the same exact item. My conclusion at the time, given my exposure to the brand, was that it was a Frankenpen, and I told Roger as much when he bought it from me. I could be wrong, but, like I said, I don't think so. I'm sorry if you don't find this useful info.

Andy

Yeah, well I think you may well have made an approach to me about the item rather than flaming it in a public forum like this.
Firstly this would have been private and maybe I didn't want to be receptive to such information.
There is no need to devote so much time and effort to rubbish something that someone was quite happy with so publically and to such a degree.
Thank you for spoiling an item that i was really deriving much pleasure from.

I can't say I'm happy that I've bummed you out, but I'm not going to apologize for having posted my take on the pen- you posted it here and stated that it was a Valentine, people looked at your post and probably figured it was, too; given my experience with the brand and having handled this particular piece, I believe it's not, and I would rather not have everyone who read your post going around with a false belief. I'm not trying to be a bad guy here, I'm trying to clear up what I believe to be misinformation- and, since this isn't top secret stuff, I wasn't going to whisper it to you back-channel.

I didn't flame your pen- it's nice. It's very cool material, and it's the only one that I've seen just like it. I liked it when I had it, but it turned out to be something that wasn't in my focus, so I let it go.

As for spending time, 98% of what I posted was written 2 years ago in a back-and-forth with Sarj Minhas, trying to suss out just what this pen was- I spent the time for myself and learned a few things in the process, and I see no harm in passing what I've learned along to others- that's what these forums are for.

As for spoiling it for you, if you liked it before, well, it's the same pen- no reason not to still like it. I personally would rather know MORE about the things that I own and collect, rather than believing in ignorance that it is something it's not. I can understand your disappointment, but I think that being upset with me is misplaced. It's not what you'd hoped it was, but you still have it so why not enjoy it? I think that if you spend some time and become better acquainted with the brand and other English pens of the period, you'd probably come to the same conclusion in the end- it's not a Valentine, but that doesn't mean it's not a good pen.

Peace,

Andy

I agree with Skybird, Andy went to a great deal of effort to publicly trash this pen and ruin the joy Skybird had in obtaining it.

A private message would have been more appropriate since it is just your "belief" that this is not a Valentine.

C'est la vie.

Scratch the word "belief" and throw in "conviction"- this isn't just a passing "doesn't look right"- I once owned this actual pen, thought it odd and did a good deal of research on it and the several dozens of Valentines that I own. The "effort" was expended 2 years ago (I pretty much just copied and pasted my post). Frankly, it would take a pretty liberal interpretation of the word "trash" to describe my post and he would have been just as disappointed with a back-channel note. What would have been lost is the opportunity for anyone else to learn from this.

If he can't bear to look at it any more because it isn't a Valentine per-se, he should ask for his money back- anger is misplaced. If he still likes it even though it isn't an according to Hoyle Valentine, then what damage is done? No need for hurt feelings here.

Andy

A private message would have led others to believe that this was a Valentine style of pen. Provenance of the lesser known of the vintage pens can be difficult to establish and we can only learn from people who have the greater experiance that Andy obviously has of this particular brand and pen.

et

I once owned a silvery blue `lizardskin' pen that had the same type of clip as the pen in this thread. Thought I had a Swan lizardskin pen because I thought I saw a swan imprinted on the barrel. Used my loupe to find out that what I had was a Nat'l
Security pen(which I think was produced by Summit). It had a "warranted 14k quality" nib in it. Figured out from that that I probably didn't have a Swan lizardskin.

It was another repeated lesson about learning before I leapt into buying a fountain pen without knowing something about it.

I have written a guide for ebay about finding fountain pens "successfully",and the overall point that I try to make is for the buyer to do their homework before launching into assuming that pen A is what they think it is. The reason that I wrote the guide is because I'm not made of money. That means that the best thing I can do is research the kinds of pens that I like before vent-
uring into buying something because it catches my eye. I also don't try to spend great gobs of money on them,because I know
that I won't ever recoup what I've put into it if I overspend what I think it might be worth. As I've stated before on this forum, I
have lost more pens than I've won. I've been further ahead in getting a good deal,however,because through researching pen
brands I know something about what I like and what to look for.

We should all do the same.

To be fair, in this case, he had a valid expectation that this should have been what he hoped it was. I'll make an assumption (unless this pen has made a few more stops on its World Tour than I think it has)- he bought this pen from a reputable source based on their description. Roger Cromwell and Victor Chen are professionals and very knowledgeable- I trust them and try to learn from them whenever we meet- I just think this one missed the mark. It's not hard to imagine- Valentine is not a well documented brand like Sheaffer or Waterman, it has Parker-ish styling, interesting celluloid, and there were no other brand marks on the pen beside the nib. I had to have the pen in hand and compare it to a couple dozen others I had on hand to come to my conclusion, and I could understand why someone else without a physical inventory of examples would make a different judgment.

I'm hoping that this will end up helping others out in the future.

Andy

Its but a simple matter of moderating the thread off the network.
I bought this pen in good faith from Roger and what has been posted has not only upset my applecart, but besmirched ther reputation of Roger et al.
Again - it would have been better off the network!

My interepretation of this post and th eothers is that, it was sold to you by Roger, as a Valentine pen. In which case I would say you are entitled to return the pen, as it is not as you say described by the vendor.

Off the network it would have been acepted by many , myself included, as a Valentine pen.

From your posts, you have received an item not to your expectations, a return and refund would not I would have thought be a problem with a reputable vendor, whose reputation is paramount in importance to trading

et

Hi Skybird,

This pen was made by Curzons, it is basically a Summit S175, one of their upper echelon pens, the colour was one of several cellular colours (red, blue, grey, sage green and brown) used by Curzons, the 'arrow' clip was used on some of the Summit pens for a year or two after they went away from a rather more 'art deco' three stage style clip.

Curzons had nothing whatever to do with Valentine or Parker as far as I know, they were based in Liverpool rather than Newhaven.

Cheers, John

Skybird, you have a beautiful looking pen. Regardless of origin. Full stop.

I rather envy you, and wish you congratulations on getting it.

To the important issue - is the writing experience as beautiful as its outside?

Regards

Richard.

Edited for tripe writing error.

With apologies to Skybird:

I think this is an important post. It does show that once off the beaten path, there is a whole lot more unknown to most of us than we imagine.

My own short exposure to vintage pens has shown me a lot of mixed part pens. Most are likely a result of repair rather than sinister intentions. Either way, outside the well documented high volume manufacturers, the collecting road is fraught with peril.

John

No, he's right- we need the power of the Moderators here! Oh, Moderators of the Parker Brand Focus Forum, smite this thread from the list! Applecarts (full of asian pears, as it turns out) have been upset, businesses brought to besmirchitude and ruin, information- yes, that's right INFORMATION- has been shared, and, most damning of all, there are 17 posts in this thread and NOT ONE MENTION OF THE PARKER 51!!!! SMITE THIS ACCURSED THREAD!!

Either that, or some lightening-up could be done.

Yes, it could have been done back channel, but then no one else would have learned a single thing. I for one had my Curzon/Summit surmise strengthened, which was pretty cool, and now you know where you might want to look to find more of this type of pen. Everybody wins.

Andy

Click to view attachmentClick to view attachmentThis post perhaps skews the subject slightly away from the straight and narrow, but since my question relates to Valentine pens, I'm going to post anyway! I have an old (pre war) Valentine pen, originally belonging to my grandfather. It works well (thanks to service/reconditioning by MK Pens). It's a button filler. The blind cap has 03 on it, and the pen body is marked as "Made in England by the Valentine Pen Company". Can anyone give me any more information, e.g. date of manufacture, materials etc? Apologies for the photos: I'm not yet competent at close up work, but hopefully they're good enough to give a reasonable idea of the pen.

skybird: I am truly sorry that you were upset by andy's replies, but I think his (initial) posts was entirely good-natured, and also extremely appropriate and helpful. If you think about what you are really upset about, it is the idea of your pen not being what you thought it was. But Andy did not cause this; he merely pointed it out -- which was useful to all on this network interested in these types of pens.

I actually think that on FPN, too much information that should be posted publicly, is exchanged via pm, because people are afraid to say things against particular pens, nibmeisters, dealers, etc., that are considered here to be beyond reproach. As friendly as this forum is, its purpose from what I understand is predominantly to exchange FP information, and not provide a feel-good-for-all regardless of reality. If I posted a happy message with erroneous assumptions or information in it, I would appreciate it if someone corrected me.

Your pen really is quite beautiful and historically unique, in some ways more so than if it were a Valentine.

Best wishes,
QM2

You're making me sad- an 04 in this material just closed on eBay and I forgot to bid on it.

This material also appears on Parker Televisor pens and I have one or two Parker Victory pens with that material. I think the date range for the Televisor is roughly 1935-1939 (sorry- at work- no reference materials here).

I've haven't seen Valentines referred to with model names, only model numbers on either the blind cap (button fillers) or end of the barrel (lever fillers). There isn't always a number.

04 is the same size as a regular Parker Victory or a Duofold Special (sorry- nothing here at the moment to measure), 02 is a thinner model without a comparable Parker size. There is an 06 that is thicker- don't have one, but I want one.

Got any measurements you can throw my way? I'll pull the old collection when I get home and have a look. I might have an 03 (can't remember ATM).

The first picture below shows an 02 in with some 04s, an English Duofold Special, and a Mentmore of suspiciously similar material and hardware. The shorter pen in the second picture might be an 03 (I don't remember what's on the blind cap).

Andy

<center><img src="http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a383/ttobbaa/parker/valentine/valbox00202.jpg">
<img src="http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a383/ttobbaa/parker/valentine/valbox00402.jpg"></center>

Andy

Thanks for that. I have been collecting Valentines, Victories and Duos from the era of late thirties to mid forties. I have a range of those pictured in this thread, plus all the marbles a couple of herringbones and twirls, but no lizard - but no lizard. That's why I got this one even if its not the streamline that all the others are. I have posted a pic of about half of them elsewhere on the network.
Just didn't expect a bucket of water to be splashed.

The pen is around 13.5 cm long unposted, 15.5 cm long posted. Am I right in thinking it's celluloid? I guess from your reply that it would have been made sometime in the 1935 to 1939 period: from what I'm aware of from family history, I suspect it would be towards the earlier part of that period. It's a fairly fine point, and also a nice smooth writer. It's certainly thinner that the Victory Mk4 I have (same family source!), and around a cm shorter than a P51 vac. Is the decoration the "herringbone" pattern? I've seen photos of Parker pens made in Newhaven with what appear to be identical clips, and similar shapes/patterns. When did Parker take over the Valentine plant, and did they initially just carry on producing the Valentine pens under the Parker brand? I have the vague notion that the plant produced P51s, and "English" Duofolds, but I'm not at all sure what else they made. Is the plant still in operation making pens?
Sorry, questions, questions, but I've been able to find very little about Valentine by Googling it.