Hey all,

I'm a Noodler's fan--so I have no axe to grind here--I'm just passing something along.

I recently sent a new 625 to Chartpak because the nib was running dry/skipping. I told Abigail that I used Aurora Black, Iraqi Indigo, and Fox Red.

Her reply:

I wanted to clarify the information that I gave to you when I said that we recommend WATER SOLUBLE INKS for Pelikan pens, such as Pelikan, Aurora, Waterman.

I should also add that we DO NOT recommend any water resistant, water proof or permanent types of inks, such as the two waterproof Noodler's inks that you have used in this Pelikan pen.

Below is some info that I quickly found on the internet:

"Iraqi Indigo is a deep violet and contains the special Noodler's cellulose reactive dyes so that once dry on paper, it is permanent and waterproof."
http://www.moleskinerie.com/2005/02/iraqi_indigo_a_.html

"I have a bottle of Fox Red. It is completely opaque. No transparency at all. Mine works well: waterproof, fade resistant. The color is a bit on the orange side of the red range. It is not quite as red as Cartridge Skrip or Levenger's Cardinal Red."
(Fountain pen network)

Any questions, please contact me.
Regards,
Abi

I read through Chartpak v. Noodler's (round one), and read many posts explaining away Chartpak's prior warning as vague. By contrast, this warning is very explicit. I don't plan to quit using Noodler's, but I thought it worth knowing that Chartpak explicitly dissuades Pelikan owners from using Noodler's inks.

Don't shoot the messenger,

Will

Hi,

The permanents do leave quite a lot of non-soluble residue in the pen, that's why I stopped using them ages ago. (I also had an allergic reaction to the permanents). The non-soluble reside can be removed only by wiping the affected parts, but that is not a very convenient thing to do with the Pelikan nib units.

At least they didn't tell you to use only Pelikan inks!

Dillon

These are Chartpak recommendations, however, not void-my-warranty-written-in-stone-don't-do-it! If they void a warranty, then it needs to have been clearly stated that the use of Noodler's or any other permanent ink will void said warranty, and not have a round-the-bush chase.

I'm not having any problems with my Pelikans and Noodler's, and I don't intend to stop using Noodler's. I even cleaned out my M200 that had Baystate in it. Took a little longer, but cleaned out ok and didn't stain. If it can handle Baystate, it can handle any other Noodler's with which I decide to ink it.

For me, fountain pens are just methods of getting Noodler's inks onto paper. Not really, but almost. But I am also fully mindful that it is my obligation to rinse my pen every now and then and make sure things don't get grunged up. So far, so good. Thanks for posting the response you received -- information is always better than its absence.

Doug

Exactly How I feel

Very good point, and I fully agree, Doug. And yes, some information is better than no information at all.

By the way, this is a commercial trick really, "cellulose reactive dyes" I mean...Noodler Waterproof inks are waterproof because have a kind of synthetic polymer used in Arts and Adhesives,etc. works like a "coat" to protect the dye after the ink is complete dried ....this is the reason why this kind of ink looks "milky" ,white sediment in the bottle's bottom,no intense colour like the simple line...etc.
Best Regards,
René.

I don't want to put words in your mouth here.... are you saying that there is no such thing as a "cellulose reactive dye" (quote: "this is a commercial trick really) and that Noodler's are waterproof/bulletproof because of the "coating"?

Perhaps you could explain your source for this information? Since this is not what Noodler's says about its own ink.

Agreed. Plus rinsing pens out allows one to change colors!

Hi,

The cellulose reactive dye is used primarily to dye cotton cloth from what I've heard. For some reason, it seems to leave behind a film of some sort in the pen.

It's really just a preference thing in my opinion. If you don't mind the residue it leaves as much as I do, then it doesn't really matter as much.

Dillon

Not shooting the messenger, just noting that the message is baloney, based on my experience. I've been using Noodler's bulletproof/eternal inks in five (5) Pelikan Souverän FPs for four (4) years now, and there hasn't been a skip, or any other problem, in sight. But, then again, all but one of those pens came from Mottishaw or Binder; I can't help but think that this has something to do with these pens' flawless performance with these Noodler's inks over said number of years. And I'm not obsessive about flushing my pens, either. I flush when I change colors.

I am using Midnight blue in one M800, Baystate Blue in another, and Polar Blue (which has lubricating properties) in a couple of 400's and my M 600. No issues.

Just an observation - Noodlers Ink seems to have gone from a "writing fluid" to a religion in a very few years. I too tried the bullet-proof black when it first arrived, and it led to major surgery on a couple of Parker 51 vacs. Since then I've used Legal Lapis in a Bexley with no ill effects, except I don't like the color. But my point is, I have never seen such strong defensive reactions to ink criticism before. If you whine about PR ink, you will have company. Complain about Quink, MB or another brand and people jump on the band wagon, but pointing out that Noodler's may be a difficult product and the villagers light their torches and head for the castle. Frankly, even though I actually write extensively with all my pens, I define myself as a pen collector, not an ink collector, and certainly not a "defender of the faith"!

Just to offer another observation - I've seen plenty of criticism of Noodlers, here at FPN and elsewhere, from "hmm, it may have led to clogging problems" to "beware, it will wreck your pens". It is in no way immune from the kind of criticism leveled at the other brand names you mention - and those other brands have their defenders as well. I don't see any "defending of the faith" here, just posters sharing their personal experiences and adding data points to show that your mileage may vary.

I'll have to go back and check but I think there's a few of the why are you always beating up on Noodler's posts out there.

In which I replied why are people always having problems with Noodler's that they post about

Kurt

Seems to me that based on the content of the response the respondent actually knows very little about Noodler's and is assuming because its waterproof once dry (on cellulose) that its like India ink in that its not actually water based.

Whereas Noodler's is in fact water based and can be dried and reconstituted in a non-absorbent container without any problems. Nathan at Noodlers specifically says this in his writing about the inks.

Clearly it is water soluble, the presence of sediment means nothing with regards to the statement of solubility. Don't believe me? Take a glasss of water, add a quarter teaspoon of salt (or sugar) stir... Does it dissolve? Now add 5 tablespoons, does it dissolve? Add 5 more, how about now?...

Yes sooner or later you'll add more than can be dissolved, that doesn't mean the substance is insoluble.

I would say its a matter of Chartpak not knowing and not really being bothered to know about the ink so they are covering their butts by saying not to use it. Much easier, faster, cheaper, etc., than actually doing some research.

Must admit I have only tried one Noodler's ink Eternal Black and to be honest have been disappointed, it writes well in the pens I have used it in avoided using anything transparent (although works well in a Senator Pelikan clone, no obvious staining yet) colour is great, really dense, looks great.

Main reason I don't use it more is that it seems to take forever to dry, even when you think it's dry (10 minutes later or after blotting well) it will still smear , so not really ideal. I did think about using it in a couple of Pelikans, but don't want to take the chance especially as it has drying issues.

I have now gone back to my Pelikan Brilliant Black as my main black ink, although I am about to try Diamine Quartz Black and Jet Black which arrived a week or two ago (to date nothing but good luck with other Diamine inks, Indigo is one of my favourites).

Andy

Honestly? I bought a pen.

You know, something to write with.

I happen to have a trés spendy Pelikan.

I intend to put ink in it (though I haven't yet).

That ink will likely be Noodler's.

If it requires repair a tidge more frequently? My bad.

That doesn't mean I'm not going to enjoy using my favorite ink in a pen I own.

I'm not a conservationist. I'm a writer.

Actually, I talked to Abigail a few days prior and she did say that using any ink other than those recommended voids the warranty. I'm not sure if it's specifically stated in the booklet, nor do I plan to stop using Noodler's (I'll just be more careful about cleaning the pen out more often than usual), but just FYI.

Well said.

My attitude, completely!

Some time ago, I came to the conclusion that Noodler's ink should not be used in all vintage and most modern pens and stated on my website that its use would void the warranty on the pens I sell, particularly Pelikans. In return, I was publicly vilified by the maker of the ink, several of his retailers and others. I stand by that belief.

Now I read that Abigail Weeks, the repair technician at Chartpak, has, after several years of working with Pelikans on a daily basis, come to the same conclusion. I should note that Abi and I have never talked about inks.

Now you folks are free, of course, to believe what you want to and to do what you want to do. But it should give you pause when two people who are intimately involved with Pelikans on a daily basis over a long period of time tell you to stay away from the stuff.

If Pelikans are really that delicate, maybe I shouldn't have any.

On a lighter note: I use Noodler's because it gives me what no other line can: waterproof in a dizzying variety of colors. I do have non-Noodler's ink, of course (including the tried-and-true Waterman Blue), but for the bulk of my fountain pen use, I'm using Noodler's.

I do kinda wonder when I hear things like it contains shellac (no, you haven't said this that I know of) from people who claim that's why they won't use the ink. Especially when it's from otherwise well-informed people about modern pens and ink.

I don't use Noodler's in pens where I haven't personally cleaned it out, and I think most people aren't that good about cleaning their pens out. I've recently learned some better techniques here, so my pen cleaning will improve too.

Everyone needs to make their own call about what they use -- and why.

One thing I will say, because it really hasn't been emphasized in other threads, and maybe it should be:

When an ink is an observably different shade coming out of two pens, that means that in at least one of the two pens, it's reacting chemically with some aspect of the pen (or some ink residue). Unless it's a reaction with some ink residue in the pen, it's probably not a good thing. I have seen this come up time to time in ink reviews, though I haven't paid attention to ink or manufacturer.

With other products, such as printers it is quite usual that using ink/toner cartridges form any other maker but the maker of the printer voids the warranty. While I do see this as an unethical form of boosting the sales of their own product, I do not see any problem with the manufacturer making a sort of correlation analysis between repair cases and the type of ink used, and excluding those where the correlation is too high.
Of course, as a user I might choose to use the ink I want. Lifelong warranty is after all only a marketing trick; if I have used a pen for a few years without any problem it is very unlikely that defective materials or workmanship will come to light later on. It only means that I will have to do the maintenance (like cleaning or the eventual piston lubricating with silicone grease) myself, which I would do anyway, because of the shipping costs.

Well stated, and I'd be surprised if Richard Binder disagreed--he sees the ill effects on pens from various less-than-desirable inks. Unless you are going to flush w/ water constantly, it is hard to beat Waterman in both vintage and new (blue, black, blue-black) in terms of most-likely-to-provide-trouble-free-use. Rick, I am told Diamine brand would run a close second.

"Desirable" is a loaded word, though. Obviously, we don't all desire the same things from our inks.

I have some problems with this thread. If there evidence that Noodler's will do damage to a pen that has been regularly cleaned and maintained...I want to see the evidence. Not only that, but the evidence should be submitted to the ink maker. Pictures, accounts where Noodler's has caused damage (not personal stupidity) and why.

I honestly find Abigail's answer unconvincing. Her response is written as if she just did some quick internet searches to find out about Noodler's inks. This is not evidence. Maybe she has hard evidence and is not sharing it. If there is evidence that Noodler's inks are harmful...wouldn't it be a service to FPN members to post this information? So please, if there is evidence...there is nothing wrong with posting it.

I love my Pelikans. They are my most favorite pens. At this point, I use Noodler's because they have a variety of colors and (for me) at least near bulletproof. I wouldn't want to harm my Pelikans. Every time I change inks I do a thorough cleaning (including cleaning nib and feed with a soft bristle toothbrush).

I have a great deal of respect for the work Mr Propas does and should I purchase a pen from him he has explicitly stated the term of the warranty and I respect that.

Pelikan, however, does not explicitly state any restrictions on inks (other than one must use FP safe inks) so they either need to alter their warranty terms or shut up.

For the record, I only own one Pelikan, a Sahara, and in order to avoid staining issues (which I have seen with Diamine and Noodler's) I purchased Sailor's Gentle Ink.

--Roy

The main reason that printer manufacturers do that is that they do not make much (or any) profit on the printer itself. Their profit is in the consumables, so it is a financial decision for them to word the warrantee in that way.

I do not think that this can be said of fountain pen and ink manufacturers.

Do you have a cite for this?
I think that you are forgetting that differnet pens lay down different amounts of ink, and with certain inks this can greatly affect the shade of the ink as it dries.

Here is a great example of an ink that tones and shades differently in different pens: Violette Pensee review

So here's my next question, respectfully addressed to Rick - would Noodler's regular inks, the non-bulletproof ones, void the warranties? I ask because I noted that use of Private Reserve inks also voids the warranty, and to my best understanding PR inks are mostly water soluble.

My use of Noodlers is limited, mostly due to issues of behaviour on the paper, rather than interaction with the pen. And, to be perfectly honest I don't enjoy cleaning pens as much as other people do, so it is probably better for someone like me to use more benign inks - like the Skrip I've allowed to dry up in school pens flung in the drawer for years . But I can't help being attracted to Noodlers for the colour and water resistance, and am constantly thinking that I'm going to try yet another one.

To Sally and others,

As someone suggested above, Diamine (with which I have no connection other than as a retail customer), is a nearly ideal ink. It offers a wide array of rather rich colo(u)rs and is fairly gentle. It will stain more, however, than the truly gentle inks like Watermans and Quink. Still, I use it because I like color quite a bit of the time.

As far as PR, the policy stated on my website is rather overly simplistic, I fear, but for the sake of simplicity. I feel that PR, used carefully, is suitable, certainly, for modern pens and for many vintage. I'd avoid PR where staining could be an issue and I would avoid letting it dry out inside a pen.

Finally, I want to address an ad hominem attack on Abi at Chartpak. I have spoken to Abi numerous times, though not, as I stated above on inks. I assume, however, that she is familiar with the views stated on my site. Remember that Abi cannot and does not set Pelikan policy. But she is a very kind and conscientious person and wants to see people able to enjoy their pens without problems and Noodler's whether you all like to hear it or not, causes problems. I have seen more than one piston assembly attacked by the ink.

I would really like to hear the justification for this claim. My experience with mixing Noodler's waterproof inks with other inks is that, after rinsing the dry writing in water, the Noodler's component remains on the paper -- but the other component, if not waterproof, still rinses away as usual. (This is contrary to claims by Pendemonium that mixing will nullify the waterproof property of Noodler's -- they should probably update this information.)

It seems to me that this behaviour is in logical opposition to the claim that a coating polymer is used by Noodler's, since it should lock both the Noodler's and the non-waterproof dyes on the paper once dry, which it never does.

-Andrew

My own personal opinion is also the same. How many of you do still use a car gas, oil, etc that causes problems after they have been repeated warnings of other customers, professionals and the warranty issuer itself?
This said, I must admit I admire the great variety and innovation of Noodler's. Unfortunatedly I can't try many of them, but if I could, I would certainly doing this at my own risk, and not at the expense of a more than generous and efficient technical service.
Let's at least recognize that most, if not all, our admired FP professionals have shared identical points of view on this issue. We will all use the ink of our choice, but blindly defending it is just not our style, here, we all know better.
Enjoy pens and inks people! And that Spring is finally here!

Agreed. As for now, I consider it hearsay.

Also agreed.

Actually -- I was thinking of some review I'd seen with more dramatic variation.

Sure, different pens lay down different amount of ink. That wasn't what I was referring to, though. It was 2 a.m. though, so I probably could have been clearer about what I meant if I'd been more awake.

Anecdotal evidence is NOT evidence...

I'm guessing you haven't seen Dostoevsky, which is transparent. I also have an extensive collection of the Noodler's bulletproof inks. Having looked at all of them, no white sediment in the bottle's bottom.

They do dry duller than their non-BP counterparts, but I'd hardly call them not intense.

It's a shame this thread isn't on the Inky Thoughts subforum.

I just want to add that none of my comments were aimed to attack Abi. I only seek truthful and knowledgeable answers and I thought the original poster's quoted email from Abi, was not "knowledgeable". I'm not saying that Abi is not knowledgeable as I have heard amazing things about the Chartpak service. My complaint is that there must be more of a reason than just saying something like



That is not useful. I try to hurt no feelings or attack anyone. If you knew me, you would know that I'm a curious person who constantly asks questions when something is unclear. My only desire is to learn, not harm.

You are right...this should go into the "inky thoughts" forum. It's too good a thread not to.

I feel the same way, btw, though I am a bit (sometimes a lot) brusque.

Rick, I believe what I see. What I've seen, after using various Noodler's bulletproof/waterproof inks in five modern* Pelikans, day in, day out, since 2004, is that these inks work as advertised and have done no harm to my pens.

Why should I believe otherwise? More pointedly, why should the decision be a matter of belief at all, and not only of belief, but of absolute faith -- all or nothing, heaven or hell -- as opposed to a matter of personal perference informed by an intelligent weighing of risk vs. benefits (as exemplified by the note on Noodler's in Richard Binder's primer, "Inks: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly")? With due respect, it sometimes seems that it's the detractors of Noodler's, such as yourself, who are more intent on injecting "religion", or deference to authority, into the discussion than those of us who, based on personal perference and positive experience with the inks, are Noodler's fans.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have the impression, from several years of reading various pen forums and from other sources, that there was and is a reservoir of animus towards Nathan Tardif in the vintage pen community that predates the arrival of Noodler's by several years, going back to the time when he was known primarily as a restorer and seller of vintage pens. Whether this animus -- if it exists -- is justified or not, I have no idea. But a result of the animus -- again, if it exists -- seems to have been that Tardif's ink venture started out with a strike or two against it among some knowledgeable and influential members of the vintage pen community -- an attitude that, on the face of it, would appear to have had nothing to do with the qualities of his inks per se. In short, I wonder whether you and others in the vintage pen community are unfairly prejudiced against Tardif's inks for reasons having nothing to do with the inks themselves. I wonder, further, whether the stir created in the wider FP community by the introduction of those inks -- particularly, the "bulletproof" and other permanent inks -- caused a measure of chagrin in the camp of vintage pen cognoscenti that were, according to my supposition and suspicion, predisposed against Tardif. Inevitably, the phrase "sour grapes" comes to mind.

What's more, the prejudice, or at least the appearance of prejudice, against Tardif and his inks in parts of the vintage pen community undercuts, in my mind, the credibility of the warnings against Noodler's that issue from those parts (yourself included). Which is not to say, of course, that there aren't risks associated with the early adoption of products, such as Noodler's, that aspire to be innovative, only that I discount the assessment of the risk in proportion to the perceived prejudice.

Forgive my candor; no disrespect intended; just thinking out loud. By all means, correct me if I'm wrong.

And, yes, I will continue to believe my senses when it comes to Noodler's.

---
* I make a point of not talking about vintage pens, because I know very little about them. (But, P.S., the only vintage pen I own -- a Matador 811 Standard that I bought from you in 2004 -- has done just fine on Noodler's.)

That isn't true at all. Sorry.

I'm sure that any social scientists on the board would be sunk without a bit of anecdotal evidence here and there.

I can appreciate that you probably meant to say that "Anecdotal evidence does NOT constitute proof absolute".

Chris

p.s. (Who is quite pleased this is in the Pelikan forum so that he isn't responsible for moderating it!)

p.p.s. I agree with the sentiment that, unless Pelikan explicitly change their warranty, then we should continue to use Noodler's at their risk. (This assumes that you follow what Pelikan would consider to be a normal cleaning regime.)

There does definitely seem to be a prejudice, complete with uncalled for snarky comments I've seen here and in other places. As always, it says more about the snarker than the snarkee.

First, I agree with all who have said that Chartpak needs to rewrite their warranty. A manufacturer or distributor who provides a losely worded warranty and then adds "fine print" only when required to honor the warranty is not providing good customer service. If I were chartpak, I would immediately amend the written warranty, based on my experiance with Noodler's.

Secondly, I think my original comment has been proven by this thread - point out problems with Noodler's at your own risk. I thought long and hard after my "Bullet-proof" experience about how important it was that my writing be waterproof. I don't live in a flood zone, my roof is solid and I would be shocked if any product of my handwriting was preserved in an environmentally-controlled vault three hundred years from now. Pelikan Brilliant Black survived my twenty minute soak test to my satisfaction. Of course everyone is free to use whatever ink product they wish, but perhaps manufacturers need to actually test inks currently on the market and be specific about what is allowable under the warranty.

I hate to disagree with you guys on this one, but the truth is that I've had to literally bite my tonge several times in order not to reply to really biased comments on double standarts and the EU demanding this and that. I decided not to intervene because when one is the owner of a business, is obvious his oppinions and views are not impartial. And I really admire Mr. Tardiff, for the passion he puts into his product, the braveness of innovation and very specially because he is a down to earth person that steps here and just takes the time to talk to his customers. I don't see any prejudice against any product or person here, but a lot of fervor from all of us as consumers. But facts are facts and reality is reality.
Let's not take a technical recommendation as a personal offense. We all want to learn, know why and such. Pelikan USA provides the best service, if not one of the best FPn's products itself. If we don't want to take their advise, we are free to do so. As they are on changing their policies, right?

Ondina, I can't always agree with what Nathan says, but as a chemist, he is definitely an innovator.

That said, I've only heard very non-specific comments about why not to use Noodler's. Correlation isn't causation, and all that, especially in a vintage pen that may have been exposed to a number of sins.

Deirdre, you should run for a political position sometime You always have a good point to reply right off the cuff.! The truth is that Waterman Europe also sent me a vague note some months ago warning me about the use of certain ink products right after inking with one of the bulletproofs and the pen was just 8 weeks old. Took a feed replacement to get it back in good working order.
But thanks for the kind tone of the reply! Yes, it would be interesting to know what specific kind of damages we are talking about.

I think that was supposed to be a compliment, but I assure you that I am, at heart, a Klingon Diplomat.

Interesting data point about Waterman; I do note that Waterman and Pelikan both market their own ink.