I'm looking for a recommendation for a brown ink. I have two plans in mind for use of this ink.

First, I want to start writing notes and/or letters. My plan is to get an ivory colored stationary and envelopes. I think a nice, dark, chocolaty brown would look good on ivory paper.

Second, I'm in the process of getting a new wide-margin Bible. In the past, I have used bulletproof Noodler's Black in a Hero 100 to underline and make notes in this new Bible when I get it. The fine nib is just right for underlining and making notes in the margin. In my new wide-margin Bible, I will transfer all the notes from my current Bible and add to them as I continue Bible study. Hopefully one day it will be an heirloom for one of my children.

Even though the Noodler's Black works just fine, I was thinking that by going to a brown ink, it would stand out a little more on the Bible pages from the black print.

Obviously, I want a bulletproof/near-bulletproof or at least a waterproof ink. My current brown ink is Private Reserve Chocolat. It is the perfect color. I looked for a Hershey's Chocolate color and settled on Chocolat. Since it is not even waterproof, I do not want to use it in my new Bible.

I would like to hear if any of you know of a bulletproof or waterproof dark brown ink like Chocolat or if you have another recommendation.

Thanks,
Steve

I have experience with Noodler's Walnut and the Pendemonium Exclusive Eternal Brown.

Walnut is very dark brown, almost black especially in an F nibbed pen. I like the color a lot, but wish I could see more brown. This is a near bulletproof ink (meaning the brown will wash out but black will stay).

Eternal Brown, was really more like yellow ochre. Kind of mustard looking. I kept it for two days and just sold my bottle because I will never use it.

I'd like to see a nice bulletproof brown similar to the Sailor Brown. That's my wish.

Edit: You might also consider Noodler's Red-black it's near bulletproof and has reddish brown tinges. In my experience it has more shading than Walnut. Also interesting to use as a Bible note color (think blood of Jesus).

Steve, since you already have Noodler's Black, I'd say get the Noodler's Eternal Brown (a Pendemonium exclusive) and add a bit of black to it. I'm not affiliated with Pendemonium, but I recommend this ink because it is about the best behaved waterproof ink I've got. I can leave it in the piston filler that I use it in for months at a time and it doesn't clog the nib, and the pen doesn't skip, etc.

If you do this, go easy on adding black until you get the shade you want. It's easy to overdo when adding a darker color to a lighter one.

Best, Ann

I really like Waterman Havana Brown, of which I believe there is a review in the ink reviews if you would like to see the color. It looks good on most papers, and while I'm not sure what color you cream paper is, it seems light enough brown to me to think that it should still retain a nice brown color on any cream color paper as long as it's not really dark paper.

- R

...and if you want something (very very slightly) redder than Havana Brown, Nooder's Red-Black is definitely the way to go! ...I should start counting the times I rant on about how great Noodler's Red Black is

In water tests (see the Ink Reviews section), Chocolat held up well, leaving a reddish result. Even if you dunk your Bible under water or stand in the rain with it open, your writing should remain readable. It should handle moisture from fingers just fine. Give it a water test. Of the 20 or so browns I have, Chocolat is my most used for general purposes. However, I tend more toward medium browns with lots of shading in wider stubs and italics for correspondence on ivory paper.

Watch out for print through or long drying times if your Bible uses thin, high quality "onionskin" paper. I have yet to find a brown that matches Noodler's Black for print through.

Noodler's Walnut is darker and will look nearly black from an XF nib.

I also get good results with Noodler's FPN Galileo Manuscript Brown. It's more of a rusty red but is nearly bulletproof, and "reads brown" in fine nibs.

Bill

I really appreciate the suggestions so far. I will be researching these and looking at reviews of some of these inks on this sight.

I am really looking for a good, saturated "Hershey Bar" brown that absolutely will not run any. I may be dreaming, but I know that if there is such an ink, someone on this board will know about it.

Steve

Have you looked at Noodler's Standard Brown? It's an almost bulletproof and a pure brown IMO. (No orange/yellow/gray undertones.) It's darker than Noodler's Eternal Brown, lighter than Noodler's Walnut, and doesn't have the red/orange tone of the Noodler's FPN Galileo. If you would like to see a written sample, send me a PM.

I vote for either Noodler's Beaver (my fave brown) or R & K's Sepia (more antiquey brown and a true sepia to my eyes). Good luck!

There's also Swisher's Grizzly, which is a fully-eternal ink. (Swishmix Seminole Sepia is a near-bulletproof). Noodler's Golden Brown and Kiowa Pecan are near-bulletproofs. Kiowa Pecan is a very nice chocolatey brown with some yellow highlight. Standard Brown is also near-bulletproof and close to the chocolately color you want. But it sounds like you want something that won't budge at all if moist fingers touch it...

The answer as of now is Grizzly or Eternal Brown. (Galileo smears pink). I support Ann Finley's suggestion to darken Eternal Brown with Black. Eternal Brown is rather tan...

You could also try mixing together a bunch of different bulletproofs. Brown is actually quite easy to mix.

Nevertheless, Nathan has been avoiding bulletproof browns, have you noticed? Quit it with the purples, and give us brown!

I'm not a brown ink kinda gal, but I do like Caran D'Ache Grand Canyon.

There's also our own Noodler's FPN Galileo Manuscript Brown.



Bigger versions of the picture here.

If you want a very nice dark brown, there always is Herbin Cafè des Îsles. It is not bulletproof, but it is a brilliant colour, for a dark brown. Think coffee indeed, a nice espresso, dark black-brown with a lighter edge, just like you see it in a cup.

However, it is a dryish ink, I had to adjust the ink flow of the pen I was using it in. But very beautiful. I wrote a few samples, on different types of paper, plus a few other inks; you can find it here (ink # 6):
http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/in...showtopic=18224

Warm regards, Wim

Another vote for Standard Brown

I've been using some Diamine Saddle Brown lately. It's not as dark, or as red, as Waterman Havana Brown, but I think it quite attractive on off-white paper. I find its shading to be similar to that of Diamine Indigo--subtle and easy to read, but unmistakably the product of a nib, not a ball.

Michael

You can't get a much nicer brown than PR Chocolat!
Other nice browns that I enjoy:
De Atramentis Vanilla Brown
Mont Blanc Seasons Greetings Brown

Is it Greek or Aramaic that you're translating from? Certainly you'd need a special nib for the Greek ... and golly the HEBREW owie my hand's already cramping just thinking about it.

I wish I knew Greek, Aramaic, or Hebrew. This is just for personal Bible study from the English Bible.

I want to thank everyone for their suggestions. You have given me a lot to think about. I most likely will order one of the samplers of Noodler's Ink in the different browns.

Thanks again for everyones' input.

Steve

Conversely you could take FPN Galileo and add a bit of Eternal Hunter green to cancel out the reddish tones and should give a nice chocolatey brown. And one that lasts and lasts...

Oh! Well then what exactly are you ... doing? I don't understand the nature of your activity. Is the term "Bible study" to be taken not literally but instead as some ceremony I'm not familiar with?

I cannot speak for Dadof8, but my own eyes were opened quite a bit during my mandatory religion class during undergrad (college run by monks). It turns out that there is a rich and diverse history to the Bible. In part this is because it was never "published" as a single book, but instead assembled much later from separate documents. The various documents were written at various times by various people and used sometimes starkly different writing styles.

Obviously the way one worships and reads the Bible is very personal, but there are many ways to do it. The thing that I never realized before the class was the anthropology that is relevant to each portion of the bible. Very many (probably most) of its components can be interpreted very differently according to the social and cultural context in which they were individually written. Some of the entries might appear to mean different things according to what context you put them in, e.g., modern, original historical, medieval, etc.

So, while you can get a lot from translating from the original author's languages, you can arguably get a much deeper appreciation by studying the anthropological context. Historically the Bible is very interesting, to believers and heathen alike.

On topic, I have Noodler's Walnut, Eternal Brown, and a homemade mix of Eternal Brown and Noodler's Black. As browns go, there are red-based browns and yellow-based browns. Walnut is red-based, and I prefer it. E.B. and Black makes a yellow-based brown which seems to be completely waterproof. It also is a nice color. In my experience I like to use at least 1 part Black in 5 parts E.B.

cott

I have a very deep, personal relationship with Jesus Christ. As such, I believe it is important that I spend time reading and studying the Bible which I believe is the way God chose to reveal Himself to mankind. I know not all will agree with this, but each person makes their own decision in this area and I can be friends with those who believe like I do and with those who chose other religions or no religion.

As I read the Bible, I will make notes or cross references to other scriptures. When I do this, I don't want water to get on the markings and cause them to bleed or smear. After I spend the rest of my life marking in my Bible, it will be an heirloom to my children (all 10 of them) to see what I learned and what different scriptures meant to me.

I hope this response doesn't precipitate a war of some sort. I'm just trying to honestly answer a question. I really appreciate the inputs of all of you.

Thanks,
Steve

---------

Hi Steve,

Just an FYI: There is a Bible that comes in a noebook/binder. It is designed to allow you to add pages of notes if you are so inclined (I think I used 5 x 8 paper); I believe you can get one at www.christianbook.com. I had one and liked it, but now I am an Amplified gal. If I find my notebook Bible and you want it, I will send it to you.



diane

I think your choice depends on the paper. For example the paper in the New Cambridge Paragraph Bible (KJV) is thicker than the ones I've seen in other bibles.

Whatever ink you choose, try it first on the concordance, index or introduction pages.

Juan,

I am in fact planning on getting a Cambridge wide-margin NKJV Bible. I hear the paper is really nice.

Steve

Steve, I have 3 Cambridge bibles. The binding and overall quality is great. They use different paper in the different bibles though: I have the NCPB, the pittminion and the Standard Text only kjv and they have different paper. I haven't taken notes on them; I use a notebook for notes.

Regards, Juan

I see we have two very different approaches. (And no, no "war" intended!) I had vaguely understood that something named "Bible study" was an act of almost ceremonial significance in certain Protestant Christian groups and so I was trying to get at what one really DOES during that act. I lived in Jackson, MS, and saw (for instance) that the sitting room at a coffee shop could be reserved for "Bible study." To the contrary, I know a woman who is a professor at the Lutheran Theological Seminary in Chicago, who teaches a course called "Early Bible," is fluent in Hebrew and Greek and kinda scattershot in Aramaic, and she looks snobbily down her nose at people who "study" the Bible by doing something OTHER than what she would consider rigorous academic analysis. And yet she considers herself a devout Christian -- so devout, in fact, that she'd prefer to "save" the Bible from the "Bible study" groups and instead get out there with "real" (to her) Bible study. Each interpretation of the phrase uses the noun "Bible" and the verb "to study," and each is at loggerheads with the other.

I know what she does. But I'm still not sure what you do. Read words in the Bible and then ... what? Maybe this is better left to a PM or a new thread in "Chatter" or even, not discussed at all.

Finally, a major point I'd like to make about assumptions: the comment, "Obviously, the way one worships and reads the Bible is very personal," is, in itself, a Protestant tenet of faith. I don't think it's obviously true at all. I COULD be, but it's not "obvious." I'm not, personally, Protestant (though I'm a "typical" secular white Scotch-Irish middle class urban non-Catholic citizen of the USA), and for that and many other reasons I could (though I don't) reject this assertion. The way one reads or worships is, maybe, not "very personal" at all; but instead maybe political and theological, or maybe just hackneyed or upper crust, or based entirely on group-think, or any of a number of other things. In fact, I find that the people who assert that they're "very personal" about Bible readings or about their "relationship with God" are often the most conformist, and conformity-imposing, of religious thinkers out there: not interested in anything "personal" as much as simply "internal" and "feeling like it's self-generated because it feels deep and meaningful and special and private." But those are unproven assumptions, and not necessary relations at all. To have an "internal feeling" isn't necessarily to have a RELIGIOUS or VALID feeling. I've met many who assert an individual's right to a "personal" interpretation, who would deride me as irreligious if I were to read a passage out loud to them and then indicate a possible "personal" interpretation that didn't agree at least in base principle with their own. Not very respectful of that "personal" notion are they?

Further example: A medieval Catholic would scoff at the notion that a given individual ought to have a "right" to "his own interpretation" or any other "personal" view of ... well ... anything. We tend to assume, in North America, even among non-Protestants, that everyone has a right to his own interpretation because, for some reason, the individual "deep personal relationship" with God (or with just about anything else) is sacrosanct. I don't buy that notion in my own faith discoveries. I don't generally (outside of religion as well) buy the idea, that merely because someone thinks up an idea "from inside," it is therefore valid. As far as this rational solipsism goes in religion, it's basically a late invention: a concoction of the early 19th Century revivalist movement in North America. Somehow it's managed to pervade almost every major religion in some manner in the modern world. Moslems do it; Buddhists do it; very much to the overturn of their own history, many Hindus, Sikhs, Shinto worshippers, and Orthodox Christians do it; certainly Protestant Christian Evangelicals and Charismatics do it, it's their main thang; but also mainstream Protestants and Catholics do it, including the surprising addition of Calvinist and other "elect" types. Amazingly, even members of "invented" California-style cult-like quasi-religions based on dictators and indoctrinations do it. Scientologists claim to do it. They're talking "my personal relationship" type language, while drinking the pink Kool Aid. Maybe Ralph Waldo Emerson's gift of verbal expression of his personal insight has something to do with its modern prevalence. But it is, I feel compelled to assert, an assailable notion, and not a given. If you wanted to question it, you could, and you could get a VERY long way to a rather sensible, useful, probably respectful view of religion without it. It would be an alternate view to what is currently mainstream, but a good and coherent view none the less.

My own view isn't necessarily against or for the quest for "personal" anything. I allow that to fall as it may. In religion as in many things, I seek validity, or (as I like to put it) truth. Personal introspection is one of many useful paths toward it, and is probably (though not necessarily) indispensable in the finding of that path. But it doesn't VALIDATE the ultimate conclusion. "Hey, what's the answer?" "I kinda thought hard about it and I came up with ... THIS." Not enough for me. Just because it's internal, and sincere, and comes with the trappings of serenity and calm and a beatific facial expression, we moderns seem to like to assert, it therefore must be valid. Wouldn't hold water in a court of law: "No, your honor, I REALLY REALLY wanted to hold the gun to his head, from a PERSONAL and INTROSPECTIVE point of view ..."

There are several reasons to study the Bible besides the religious one. You mention an anthropological one, and it's a good reason, but it's just the tip of the iceberg.

As it's mentioned in the thread, the Bible is not a book, but a library; a collection of books written in different styles, for different aims, and by different people. No original manuscripts have survived; what we have is copies of copies of copies...It is no surprise there are so many versions/translations even within a single language.

In my case, I have different Bibles (English, but mainly Spanish), and this is so because of religious reasons, but also because I'm a philologist. I have several different editions of some books (Don Quijote, 100 Years of Loneliness, Ulysses...) When I have guests at home and they ask me about it and look at me like I'm nuts (they're probably right), then I decide not to show them my fountain pens.

The Bible can also be used as a reference book while reading, say Moby-Dick, Faulkner, Joyce... A large part of the literary message of many books would be lost without a basic knowledge of the Bible.

Dadof8 and I were just talking about different types of study. The two are not mutually exclusive. In fact I have done exactly as he describes, making notes and references, etc. in my Bible for the purpose of my own worship.

With passing the Bible on in mind, I would say a smear-proof Noodler's ink would be best. I suggest trying mixes of Eternal brown and Black. These will not smear or "print" on other pages if expused to moisture like other inks will. They are also suitable for archival (I assume the mix would remain so).

Scott

P.S. Noodler's Walnut (a very nice color) and other "near bulletproof" inks have a color component that remains water soluble. A mix of Eternal Brown and Black would be completely waterproof, with essentially nothing to smear in the event of contact with moisture. Sometimes I have picked up the color component from Walnut by resting my hand on the page while I write. E.B./Black will not do this. Not sure if I was clear on that above.

"I see we have two very different approaches."

Ah, yes, I think we do.

I would love to sit down with you and just talk. Too often, people get irrational discussing these matters. I can tell by your response that you are probably not like that, nor am I, and you seem like the type that would enjoy a good, robust conversation.

I guess what I try to do regarding Bible study is not "drink the Koolaid" (I like this description as applied to religion) of my chosen Protestant denomination. I see too many people in churches who blindly accept what they are told when the Bible clearly tells us to use our head in these matters.



Steve

Thanks for the suggestions. I definitely will look into these.

Steve

I've started to use this on occasions myself. It does have the advantage that I haven't had it feather at all and bleedthrough is less than on some other inks.

Regards

Richard.

Aaah brown inks... I happen to be on a personal quest searching for "that perfect" brown ink. So far I've tried Visconti Sepia, Noodler's Walnut and Noodlers Golden Brown. Out of these three I definetly like the Visconti Sepia more than the others, but the Noodler's Golden Brown is a good second best.

The Visconti has some lovely shading, good behavior ( no nib creep) and comes in a attractive glas bottle. You can get it in a plastic refill at a much better price though

Kind regards,
Karl