I have two (black) Wahl/Eversharp pens that I find difficult to clasify. I can presume the one with a three band cap may be an Oxford, and the other one some blend of Equipoise, but I have tons of doubts.




And maybe someone can answer the question I put on the Waterman's forum: Night and Day?

The one on top is an Oxford or similar pen with Eversharp markings (many identical pens were marked both ways). The one on the bottom is an Equipoise with an incorrect Doric clip. Also, the one on the bottom is a small Equipoise which are pretty scarce and should have a roller clip.

Thanks for the answer. So the small one is Equipose with an incorrect Doric clip? It happens that I own a pencil with the same band(s) and same clip, but an another color.

Actually the one on the bottom has the correct clip. It and its brethren and sistren are shown in the small dealer catalog/supplement. The pen comes from the year 1935 and in Black is a Model #44. These were the "$5.00 Pens Round Vacuum Filler" pens. So with respect to all others of my esteemed expert friends, your pen is correct as is.

Syd

Assuming your longer black pen (simple double capband) has a Wahl-Eversharp imprint on the clip, it is a Wahl Equi-Poised in the final catalogued (so far known) form as seen on page 3 of the 1932 Wahl Catalog, model 7210TC side clip model in black.

The shorter pen is a Wahl Vacuum Model as seen in a trade catalog, sometimes mislabeled a "round doric".

Here's an essay on the latter pen

http://vacumania.com/websiteessaypics/rounddoricessay.htm

regards

david

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but for the record, based on the not very good picture, I'm sticking by my initial assessment.

Oh, i didn't peek at other assessments. Just peeked at the pic and cited the equi-poised catalogue. If something about this pen deviates from the image and description in the catalog, i am willing to reassess.

regards

david

Well fellas,

I have to go with the Eversharp/Oxford designation on the longer pen. It is the correct for that item pocket clip with the crimped ball end that one should use to differentiate this pen from what was listed in "Round Doric" article. The "Round Dorics shown even there had the late Doric style clip. This pen has the clip which is the right one for the Eversharpl/Oxford era, and it was produced much later than the 1934 Equipoiseds. The latter had the roller clip or the side clasp but never the solid ball clip.

So as far as I can see th pen in question is not the 7210TC but rather the 7310TC as shown in Oxford trim on page A-616-35 in the 1935 Catalog supplement. Trust me.

For the record, the "Oxford" designation was not only found on pens from the late 30s or early 40s. The name was used on the Wahl Pen era pens in rosewood as early as 1923 and also on over-runs of Gregg Pens that were put in Oxford trim after the Gregg contract ran out. The name "Oxford" in the W-E line-up was usually used to denote the "affordable student model". SPECULATION: Now if and when Eversharp, Inc in this time frame wanted to sell the Oxford pen for a little more, putting it in Eversharp trim would accomplish that .

Whether by coincidence or not both pens in this post are shown in the same 1935 catalog supplement. If these pens have been together for some time, it might even make sense that they are together till now and acquired near in time to one another by their original owner. But who can say about that???

Syd the Wahlnut

Very interesting article that raises questions about the whole Doric "class" of pens. It will be useful to have a comprehensive illustrated catalog of Wahl/Eversharp, even if only online. For example, I know at least 4 types of Oxfords, each with a different clip. I suspect some of them are completely other pens.
Thanks David and congratulations for the essay.

Since the Wahl-Eversharp companies always referred to pens by number in all their order forms and their other buy-sell communications with dealers, and since they never sold their pens to dealers relying on generic descriptions or model names, (even if they did do so in the media) the notion that there is a definitive way to group their pens into neat piles two of which are called Doric and Equi-Poised, for example, poses an improbable question.

Now don't get me wrong. It is true enough that in advertisements and catalogs and the Eversales Newsletter to Dealers and in the Letter flyers sent to Dealers, W-E DID call many names by a model name. But if you look further down the history line the same pen for example called Doric in 1931 and 1932 was not called Doric in 1935 when the leakfroof pen came out. Oh, and about the How come when we talk about Parkers Waterman or Sheaffers we all seem to be familiar with those companies' products by model numbers, but when it comes to Wahl-Eversharp we call pens by words and then try to lump similarly styled pens into the Doric camp or not.

In the end the only way to make a comprehensive list of Wahl-Eversharp pens is by Model number first and then maybe list the names they went under in ads or as time went by and new top of the line pens were coming out. BTW I wrote on this subject on PT years ago where there was a pretty good case made for how The Gold Seal pens included a string of top of the line designs from Gold Seal Flattops (which when new were just called Wahl-Eversharp Gold Seal Personal Point pens)to the Dorics which ere of course called Dorics but later not, and the Equi-poised pens which were called that at first but then about 2 years or so later they were called Gold Seal Personal Point Pens. I do an injustice by trying to recap what was 2 or 3 pages of text in one paragraph here and risk generalizing too much, but you get the idea.

We could just start to refer to W-E pens by number! They all had a unique number. Now everyone get out your catalogs and turn to page...and we will all agree. Otherwise lets use the word "style" when we use say the word Doric or the word Equi-poised when we try to describe the pens we have trouble with identifying (usually these are the same pens just a year or two later after being the top of the line and now they are the 2nd class item in the line-up.)

Oh, and about the definitive illustrated book on Wahl's I know of 2 that are in the works. One of em is mine, but it will be a while yet before it is ready...mostly due to the fact that a lot of the information included is about the actual day to day operations, sales, advertising, etc of the Wahl Company or Eversharp, Inc. So it will be a lot more than a picture book.
Syd

New balls - as good as I can get pics of the two clips:





I can add that there are no inscriptions on the pens, except for the first pen which has written on the border part of the cap, opposite to the clip, "Made in USA". And I do think this pen is an Equipoised - I put it on the catalog and it have the same lenght as the one pictured. If this is valid probe

Yes, the bodies and the caps WILL be the exact same length AS an Equi-poised. When these lines moved to 2nd and 3rd tier, they never changed the dimensions. IMHO again the clip is the key and the model numbers will be different and the category will be non-Equipoised. But hey everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. Nice pens all the same.

Perhaps can post the catalog page tomorrow, but am curious to know what difference you see in this pen from the catalogue page that shows non-roller, round ball pen and calls it Equi-Poised?

regards
david

The main difference is that clip on a vacuum filler has to be what I described. I ASSUME that it is a vacuum filler because I see no lever. If it is a lever filler than you are most likely right on. If it is a vac filler then it has to be the later pen. Also if the pen barrel is visualated it further confirms the later pen. So, maybe mandragoru can clarify these points??

Good discussion of lots of Wahl-Eversharp features going on. Love it!

Syd

We might be cross conversing.

I thought we had mixed view of the long pen, not the short pen that looks like it has a blind cap. I think we agree the short pen is a Wahl Round vacuum. The long pen matches catalog for an Equi-Poised. I thought you were saying the long pen was not an equi-poised, which i believe it to be.

regards

d

David,
You are right that I was starting to get confuzzed with the vac thing...too late tonight.

I got off on that clip thing because from memory I did not recall the Equi-poised pen without the roller clip. I went back and checked and the 7210 TC did not have the roller ball clip. So I am good with that, and now I am about 60% maybe more comfortable with the Equi-poised ID. But, there were two almost identical designs: the 7210TC and the 7310TC. The former is the Equi-Poised and the latter is the Wahl or Eversharp or Oxford. The former was available from about 1932 and the latter not until about 1935. And as Lynn pointed out, there is plenty of evidence of the 7310 out there in the wild with Wahl-Eversharp ball clips. Both were available in black, Both were lever fillers and both were the same length, wonder what nib in the pen is? Maybe that can help. If the nib is an Eversharp in an arch pattern then it is probably yhe Equi-poised you say. Or maybe if it walks like a duck...

Best
Syd

Back with details:



The long pen is a lever filler (can see the lever in the photo). The other one is a vaccum filler.
The nib of the lever filler is in arch and says Eversharp, made in USA, 2 and Flexible.
The short pen has a nib that says Eversharp, 14 C, Made in England.

And if we don't reach a conclusion, we can vote which is wath, that's democracy for, after all....

Whenever a discussion like this happens it's a good idea to get biases up front. One of mine is that catalogs are far from definitive. We have to remember there was no authority at these companies making sure the pen taxonomy would be perfectly rational for future generations of collectors. Catalogs were done by marketing departments and they didn't care much whether the terms they used were accurate (as if there even was such a thing as accurate). Yes I know there are pens similar to the one on top called Equipoise in catalogs. I've even heard Dorics referred to as faceted Equipoiseds, which may make more sense than round Doric. If one carries the logic far enough he is left with virtually every Wahl between the flat tops and Skylines being an Equipoise. I prefer to think of Equipoise as the pen with the rhomboid band just before the Doric. Much debate is possible about the variants that preceeded it on the evolution from Flat-top to EP. The pens between the early Doric and the Skyline are, to me, a cluster of models tossed out willy nilly and any attempt to categorize them definitively is likely to open more worm cans. Soooo..... clearly the top pen is one of the most common models in that period, all basically the same body with some variation in clips and with Eversharp and Oxford markings. On the bottom pen I was clearly wrong. This has happened before (I believe it was '86 ). Had I looked more closely I would have noticed that it was too long to be a baby EP and it didn't even have a gold seal (as all baby EPs did I think). I think I just assumed it was a lever filler and with the rhomboid band jumped to EP rather than vac filler. The vac fillers did have this clip and rhomboid bands so there you go. As for round Dorics that one is really a misnomer to me. The defining characteristic of Doric is faceting so to say round Doric - the logic escapes me. I have a number of the pens being called round Dorics and I'm sure the name came from the late Doric clip. But those all have levers and narrow bands. This bottom pen seems to be typical of the vac fillers with a rhomboid band. I posted a pic awhile back of a turquoise veined pen. That plastic is found in this group too although the one I posted was the first lever filler in that plastic I've seen. As for Oxfords there is no end to the variation. I have 6 or 7 different clips marked Oxford and many pairing of identical pens except for Eversharp vs Oxford markings. As Syd said, they used the name Oxford over a long period here and there with no apparent logic. It would be an interesting exercise here to drag out all the Oxford variations we can find. Syd, do you have an Oxford combo?

Whilst i concur that the definitiveness of pen literature leaves room for interpretation, some things do seem... basic.

One can do reductio ad absurdum on the pen thing and say "there are no models of any pen anywhere" and that- for example... "one could call a Wahl Equipoised, just a 'Parker Duofold made by Wahl and packing a rhomboid band instead of a smooth band, a lever filler instead of a button filler and a blunted streamline shape instead of a flat top shape" and one might be... correct, if unhelpful. No doubt there are pens for which lack of information leaves us with uncertainty. No doubt there are pens for which conflicting information leaves us with unertainty. But... for pens in which definitive information seems available, it seems helpful to embrace that information rather than ignore it.

We have a very nice Wahl catalogue out there from 1932. It shows some pens in great detail, citing model numbers, clip style, shape and color. It provides a digestible schema for catalog identifiers.

Whilst the Wahl Vacuum lends itself to more ambiguity (based on my info so far), even that one has some solid info out there which seemingly just was not known ten years ago.

But the ball-clip Equipoised is terrifically well defined in the catalog. One might invoke catalog errors in the general case when discussing pendom philosophy, but i'd be curious to know what about this 1932 catalog raises questions?



I don't know the general prevalence of that particular pen as i am unaware of any formal census I see flat top Deco-band type Wahls in Jade with modified bands, clip and nib sold as Oxfords, too, but that does not lead me to dismiss the "Wahl Personal Pen Deco Band" label on all the Wahl Pens out there of THAT sort. That nearly all wahls from 1930 onward- early EquiPoised, Doric, Airlite, Pacemaker, derivative Oxfords, etc- pack a blunted streamline shape (some faceted some not), is not a good reason- IMO- to dismiss model names for those pens that ARE clearly defined in catalogs. We could call a Pacemaker a "striped low line generic shape Oxford-like Wahl", but why would we? Similarly, the round-ball-clip Equi-Poised, unlike some pens, appears to be a very well defined model.

regards
david