When I graduated from high school in 1989, my grandfather gave me a Waterman rollerball, seems like it is/was a Laureat? Same kind of size and design. I sold pens during high school (at an small office supply store) and understood Waterman was a good pen and felt really, really happy to receive this gift!

Fast forward 19 years.

Waterman Phileas is sold at Office Depot on a spinning rack for $37? I've used one (medium nib) and it feels like a piece of junk. I realize that many here are fans of this pen, and I mean no disrespect. Further, I'd really like to LOVE Watermans and join the cult, given the line's price and availability. But I have to wonder if these pens are really Watermans anymore, given the "new" ownership, mergers, wider distribution.

Questions for anybody willing:

1. Why is the Phileas so beloved? It feels to me like a cheap plastic magic marker covered by a fp nib...

2. Is Waterman a premium maker of fountain pens these days? (Was it ever? This assumption may be my problem here...)

3. Comparing something like an Expert/Expert II, Charleston and something from Cross like the Apogee - it seems like the Cross is using better materials and design for the same price. Is this a new development? My memory suggests that older Waterman pens used heavier materials than the "resin" used on Expert and Charleston pens.

Thanks in advance for you opinions...

#1: I think that it has something to do with low cost and smooth writing. For the price you get a decent pen that has a nice nib and is a reliable writer (for the most part).

#2: My only Waterman is a modern pen (Harmonie) that has a nice heft and is slim, both things that I like in a pen. I'm not a big fan of fat pens, but I do kind of like the Phileas (as a disclaimer, I have to say that I am fan of Jules Verne so...) As far as a premium pen maker I'm not the best judge, but I do think that they certainly make perfectly good pens.


- R

I don't think that a heavier material is better. It should be strong and resistant to wear, but not necessarily heavy.

On the other hand, I think the Charleston is a very good pen, with a wonderfully smooth nib, and so is the l'Etalon. These pens definitely can be called premium pens.

Waterman also makes cheap, but very reliable and smooth writing pens, like the Graduate, the Phileas and the Kultur. These are not premium pens, but cheap but well usable everyday writers. ( I don't like to take an expensive pen to work everyday. At work, I might drop or misplace a pen easily, and it's better if it's not an expensive one.)

Vintage Waterman pens are also among the best, if not for anything else, for the nicest flexy nibs ever made.

Questions for anybody willing:

1. Why is the Phileas so beloved? It feels to me like a cheap plastic magic marker covered by a fp nib...

2. Is Waterman a premium maker of fountain pens these days? (Was it ever? This assumption may be my problem here...)

3. Comparing something like an Expert/Expert II, Charleston and something from Cross like the Apogee - it seems like the Cross is using better materials and design for the same price. Is this a new development? My memory suggests that older Waterman pens used heavier materials than the "resin" used on Expert and Charleston pens.

Thanks in advance for you opinions...
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Hi WP,

I started using Waterman when you were a sophomore in high school (and I was...33). haha! Waterman is my favourite pen.

I have a bunch of Watermans, but the Phileas has never been one of my prefered pens, as it always felt slippery/plasticky to me. However, it is very popular, nicely priced, and has a super great nib.
I've always prefered the larger, polymer/lacquer-over-brass pens of the 1980s - 1990s. However, seems you have a few things jumbled up a bit here:

The Expert came in 2 versions, a plastic/resin, and later they added the brass liner (I think that is how it went). Current Experts (well, the last 2 I bought) are brass-lined. I'm not sure about the Charleston; I had one and then gave it away. Waterman still makes heavier pens, just depends on the model.

Most of us really enjoy the Carene (about 150.00 - 200.00, unless you find a great sale). It's a pen with nice heft, a little longer than the Phileas, but a different shape. Your high school years were the best years for Waterman, in my opinion: LeMan 100, LeMan 200, Gentleman, etc. Of course, things changed with new owners (Gillette - Newell/Rubbermaid {no, Ann, NOT Tupperware!}). The Liaison and the L'Etalon had to grow on me, and I like those as well.
Another reasonably-priced pen is Waterman's Harley line (Combustion, Horizon, and the Phileas-based Racing series), now being sold for a song on eBay. Combustion and Horizon are good solid metal pens, smooth nibs (I think the Phileas nib is also used on all pens in this line).

As for Cross, they have been improving their image over the last 5 years or so I think. New finshes and styles and all that. I don't know if "better" is the word, just "different". Waterman has been around since 1883, Cross since maybe a few years after that, not sure. To me, both are good, just different.


diane

I don't know about 'beloved', I sure as hell never loved my Phileas --- but it's recommended to newbies a lot because it's tough and easy to use.

And I suspect that Waterman was once (and probably still is) a producer of good fountain pens, otherwise it would not have lasted this long. 100+ years...

Most companies make a range of models. I don't think you can use a Parker Vector to determine the workmanship or materials of a Duofold, nor the quality of a Pilot Varsity to determine the quality of a Namiki Maki-e.

I'd like to consider my Waterman Edson to be a premium pen.

Amen. I never could get past that. That said, they apparently write well for the price.

1) Well, it doesn't feel much different in the hand from my 1927 Duofold or 1945 Vacumatic, and only a little less pleasing than my mid-'40s Triumph. It's a whole lot less rickety than my late-'40s Dauntless, a low-end pen Waterman was making in (more or less) the peak of its power.

2) Well-addressed already. I really love my 100-yen Sailor "Ink Pen", but I don't believe it reflects a King of Pen.

3) In the late 1980s, there was a fashion for foolishly-thin pens, which lead to a lot of pens with metal bodies; more heft along with better structural rigidity. I've got an FP version of the thing you are remembering fondly (or something very similar); it's one of the thinner pens I've got and it weighs a bloody ton because it's lacquer over brass rather than any of the various plastic materials that pens of old were made of (lucite, celluloid, hard rubber). Heavy is not necessarily an indicator of worthy material.

I think the rather pleasant-writing aspect of the Phileas is a huge mark in favour of Waterman as a maker of quality pens-- if they're putting sufficient effort into something at the bottom of their food chain to make it compare favourably to some of the better pens of the Golden Age of Pens, how nice must the top end be?

They do, even in extra fine. The build quality of my Phileas made the rough match between the grip and barrel on my Townsend feel unacceptable...so I sold the Townsend.

the phileas may well in fact be a 'cheap, plasticky' pen, but it writes magnificently. It's a seriously smooth nib for the price. I should know, I have one and write with it daily. You really can't argue with its writing performance, regardless of how you percieve the construction of the pen, i don't think. Pretty much everyone will tell you that the nibs on these are super smooth. And I have better, not so 'cheap' pens, like a Lamy studio, a parker vac, etc. This pen is right there with them in terms of how good a writer it is. After all, isn't the nib performance the most important aspect of the pen? Unfortunate you think it feels like a 'cheap magic marker'. I doubt that the writing performance was so, unless you got a bad pen. The reason you see it come up a lot is because for it's price, it's one of the better pens for someone that's only just getting into fountain pens. A 'starter' pen, if you will. Not everyone can go straight to montblancs and pelikans for their first pens, and that's why they have this bracket of pens. Economical, no-nonsense, but solid, smooth writers. A better question is why were you expecting it to be anything more, for 30 some odd dollars?

Granted, of course it's not going to be anyone's crown jewel pen, the Phileas, but for someone new to fountain pens, it's a great piece.

The Phileas / Kultur has a very smooth and is a well made pen for the money. I own tow of these and they are among my best writers. In their high end models, the best models they have made were the man 100 and the man 200 which are far better than the Exception and the Edson.

Although not the 'prettiest' pen in my collection, I think my Exception Night & Day with stub nib, is very well-made and the the smoothest-writing pen I have.
I like the bayonet fitting barrel and click cap, both of which make it very user-friendly.

Because it's cheap and writes well. The Waterman Kultur is even a better choice (and a similar pen). There are for the money better options (like the Bic Select Xpen), but this one isn't bad at all.



It's not a premium maker now but a mass producer. That doesn't mean that Waterman doesn't make good pens (they do). It's probably the only Sanford company that still makes nice pens.



Why compare European pens with a product that's made in China?

+1 on the Harley line of Waterman's. Mine are carried everyday for work and write very nicely. If I ever lose or break them,I will get another Phileas, because of the price and the way they write.I DON'T carry my striated Sheaffers every day, but they do go to church or special events with me.

Expert II and Apogee are comparable: I thought I'd like the Apogee, but it's not as smooth as my Carene when I tested it at my store and the Expert II is more nicely finished. I hate the sharp end of the clip on the Apogee. Do understand, I think the Apogee is good, but when I think about a Waterman equivalent, I tend to be drawn to that. The Charleston is an interesting sounding pen, that I want to try. A blend of heft and lightness makes it sound like a pen for all seasons, and one I might also end up preferring over the Apogee.