Hello,
As promised attached some pictures on the new "PF Tribute" plunger filler.
I really see this pen as a tribute the the plunger fill technology.
I'm a big fan of plunger fillers, they can hold more ink as any other pen.
This technology is greatly under estimated over time, mainly due to the problematic repairs inherent to the early designs.
Although Sheaffer made high quality pens in their "golden era", their plunger fillers were not at all maintenance friendly.
I think I've taken this hurdle by applying modern sealing technology and materials.
My "PF Tribute" pen can completely be dis assembled in 10 minutes, nothing is sealed with shellac, all seals are standard O rings ( except for the home made urethane piston seal)
The pen holds 2.5 cc of ink- of which 2.0 cc stored leak free when desired- filling rate is 100% (comparison: modern MB 146 holds 1.5 cc)
Note that comparing the demonstrator & HR version,I've made a few changes for both technical & aesthetical reasons.
The section was elongated to accommodate for the longer threaded Pelikan & MB nib assemblies, while still leaving the desired 0.5cc ink in the writing chamber.
The cap band was narrowed aiming for a sleeker look, which I think was obtained .
Do you agree this improves the look of the pen, or is the effect mainly to the difference in material ?
The clip was also slightly shorten.
Thanks in advance for your comments & thoughts on this new version.
Your input surely will help me in improving the design.
Regards, Francis
Edit, sorry but I can't attach a third picture showing the pen uncapped (with a beautifull Pellikan 800 nib)
Full Version: Fountainbel OS "PF Tribute" plunger fill fountain pen
It just keeps getting better!!!!
QUOTE(fountainbel @ Mar 13 2008, 05:37 AM) [snapback]543868[/snapback]
Hello,
As promised attached some pictures on the new "PF Tribute" plunger filler.
I really see this pen as a tribute the the plunger fill technology.
I'm a big fan of plunger fillers, they can hold more ink as any other pen.
This technology is greatly under estimated over time, mainly due to the problematic repairs inherent to the early designs.
Although Sheaffer made high quality pens in their "golden era", their plunger fillers were not at all maintenance friendly.
I think I've taken this hurdle by applying modern sealing technology and materials.
My "PF Tribute" pen can completely be dis assembled in 10 minutes, nothing is sealed with shellac, all seals are standard O rings ( except for the home made urethane piston seal)
The pen holds 2.5 cc of ink- of which 2.0 cc stored leak free when desired- filling rate is 100% (comparison: modern MB 146 holds 1.5 cc)
Note that comparing the demonstrator & HR version,I've made a few changes for both technical & aesthetical reasons.
The section was elongated to accommodate for the longer threaded Pelikan & MB nib assemblies, while still leaving the desired 0.5cc ink in the writing chamber.
The cap band was narrowed aiming for a sleeker look, which I think was obtained .
Do you agree this improves the look of the pen, or is the effect mainly to the difference in material ?
The clip was also slightly shorten.
Thanks in advance for your comments & thoughts on this new version.
Your input surely will help me in improving the design.
Regards, Francis
Edit, sorry but I can't attach a third picture showing the pen uncapped (with a beautifull Pellikan 800 nib)
As promised attached some pictures on the new "PF Tribute" plunger filler.
I really see this pen as a tribute the the plunger fill technology.
I'm a big fan of plunger fillers, they can hold more ink as any other pen.
This technology is greatly under estimated over time, mainly due to the problematic repairs inherent to the early designs.
Although Sheaffer made high quality pens in their "golden era", their plunger fillers were not at all maintenance friendly.
I think I've taken this hurdle by applying modern sealing technology and materials.
My "PF Tribute" pen can completely be dis assembled in 10 minutes, nothing is sealed with shellac, all seals are standard O rings ( except for the home made urethane piston seal)
The pen holds 2.5 cc of ink- of which 2.0 cc stored leak free when desired- filling rate is 100% (comparison: modern MB 146 holds 1.5 cc)
Note that comparing the demonstrator & HR version,I've made a few changes for both technical & aesthetical reasons.
The section was elongated to accommodate for the longer threaded Pelikan & MB nib assemblies, while still leaving the desired 0.5cc ink in the writing chamber.
The cap band was narrowed aiming for a sleeker look, which I think was obtained .
Do you agree this improves the look of the pen, or is the effect mainly to the difference in material ?
The clip was also slightly shorten.
Thanks in advance for your comments & thoughts on this new version.
Your input surely will help me in improving the design.
Regards, Francis
Edit, sorry but I can't attach a third picture showing the pen uncapped (with a beautifull Pellikan 800 nib)
I think you could narrow the cap band more still especially on the dark material pen. It looks "heavy" and unbalanced to the rest of the pen in the HR. The wide band doesn't have so much of this effect on the clear pen. I'd go with the width of the HR pen on the clear pen and for other HR or dark material pens I'd go to something more in the ballpark of half the width shown.
Also I think the longer clip adds length to the look of the pen. Shortening actually reduces the "sleekness" factor for me.
Great pen and amazing work.
agree, it just gets better.
i would add, i think a band between the pen barrel and end would tidy up the join especially if the pattern of the material cannot continue thought out.
the band around the cap is a little over powering or me, i find it dominating in general and i think you loose the line of that absolutely simple and elegant clip.
overall the shape is beautiful and i think what you have achieved is exceptional.
i would add, i think a band between the pen barrel and end would tidy up the join especially if the pattern of the material cannot continue thought out.
the band around the cap is a little over powering or me, i find it dominating in general and i think you loose the line of that absolutely simple and elegant clip.
overall the shape is beautiful and i think what you have achieved is exceptional.
WANT. 
Personally, I think that some of the issues that others have expressed with the width of the capband and/or clip length may resolve themselves if you did the pen in a single color plastic like black, blue, WHITE, etc.
Could you add a low-profile trim ring at the bottom of the ink-view window to perhaps add a little symmetry when the pen is capped? If you did the half-width trim ring on the cap and another equal-width trim ring on the bottom of the ink-view window, that might look pretty sweet because it'd frame the ink color in silver, visually drawing attention to the color you're writing with. Keep the demonstrator hood/ink-view window intact, and wrap it with color, and then you won't have to worry about staining the section when they fill it.
Oh Lord...white barrel, bling-bling silver trim rings framing the ink-view window? (I must go...I need a moment.)
The white suggestion isn't because I'm the resident iPod fanboy...but there aren't enough nice white pens in the world.
Where, by the way, are you thinking in terms of price-point for these? I need to find a bank to rob.
Personally, I think that some of the issues that others have expressed with the width of the capband and/or clip length may resolve themselves if you did the pen in a single color plastic like black, blue, WHITE, etc.
Could you add a low-profile trim ring at the bottom of the ink-view window to perhaps add a little symmetry when the pen is capped? If you did the half-width trim ring on the cap and another equal-width trim ring on the bottom of the ink-view window, that might look pretty sweet because it'd frame the ink color in silver, visually drawing attention to the color you're writing with. Keep the demonstrator hood/ink-view window intact, and wrap it with color, and then you won't have to worry about staining the section when they fill it.
Oh Lord...white barrel, bling-bling silver trim rings framing the ink-view window? (I must go...I need a moment.)
The white suggestion isn't because I'm the resident iPod fanboy...but there aren't enough nice white pens in the world.
Where, by the way, are you thinking in terms of price-point for these? I need to find a bank to rob.
Very, very nice design. I'm officially prowling FPN for the day you announce your demonstrator version is available for sale.
I want one! 
Fountainbel,
I hope you don't mind, but I Photoshoped your pen to make the cap band thinner.
I like the thinner look of the cap band... I believe it makes the pen look more balanced...
Click to view attachment
I hope you don't mind, but I Photoshoped your pen to make the cap band thinner.
I like the thinner look of the cap band... I believe it makes the pen look more balanced...
Click to view attachment
What a bunch of talented people we have here.........I agree in the demo the cap is just right and in the other looks better as OldGriz suggested.
Well, I want one also, but as mentioned, I will need to find a supply of cash out of the ordinary.....
The work is amazing, as the result. Congratulations.
Well, I want one also, but as mentioned, I will need to find a supply of cash out of the ordinary.....
The work is amazing, as the result. Congratulations.
Superb! I want one, too!
Francis,
You are having a lot of fun, my friend!
Great work!
Question: Which size is this pen internally - small, medium, or OS?
Cheers,
Tom
You are having a lot of fun, my friend!
Great work!
Question: Which size is this pen internally - small, medium, or OS?
Cheers,
Tom
Hi Tom,
I surely don't mind, I'm even grateful for your proposal, thank you!
I really have to learn the Photo shoping thing, this looks a perfect tool to determine the optimum shape.
You surely have a point, although some people I've seen at the Cologne pen show did specifically like the wide cap ring.
Given the mechanical design & the "double bajonet" closing system its however difficult to make the ring much smaller.
The ring is now 17mm wide,I could take a few mm off from the backside but not more.
I surely could take off 10 mm from the cap entry side,making the cap shorter, but doing so I expect the length ratio between cap & barrel will be greatly disturbed.
Alternatively I could use a 4 lead closing thread fit between cap & barrel ( or section)
Then I can install any band width I want, but I'm afraid the threads in HR will probably wear & shear off after time.
Question is:are HR pens with a threaded cap & barrel fit sensible for wear on the thread fit?
Any input on this subject is greatly apriciated !
Francis
I surely don't mind, I'm even grateful for your proposal, thank you!
I really have to learn the Photo shoping thing, this looks a perfect tool to determine the optimum shape.
You surely have a point, although some people I've seen at the Cologne pen show did specifically like the wide cap ring.
Given the mechanical design & the "double bajonet" closing system its however difficult to make the ring much smaller.
The ring is now 17mm wide,I could take a few mm off from the backside but not more.
I surely could take off 10 mm from the cap entry side,making the cap shorter, but doing so I expect the length ratio between cap & barrel will be greatly disturbed.
Alternatively I could use a 4 lead closing thread fit between cap & barrel ( or section)
Then I can install any band width I want, but I'm afraid the threads in HR will probably wear & shear off after time.
Question is:are HR pens with a threaded cap & barrel fit sensible for wear on the thread fit?
Any input on this subject is greatly apriciated !
Francis
QUOTE(OldGriz @ Mar 13 2008, 05:07 PM) [snapback]544130[/snapback]
Fountainbel,
I hope you don't mind, but I Photoshoped your pen to make the cap band thinner.
I like the thinner look of the cap band... I believe it makes the pen look more balanced...
Click to view attachment
I hope you don't mind, but I Photoshoped your pen to make the cap band thinner.
I like the thinner look of the cap band... I believe it makes the pen look more balanced...
Click to view attachment
Hi rroosinck,
Thanks for your valued input.
I surely could add another stainless ring on the barrel, accentuating the ink view window.
Making the capring considerably smaller is however difficult.
Given the actual design there are several drawbacks in doing so.
Please read my reply to Old griz, who did a nice photo shopping job.
As what concerns selling these pens, I've not yet decided.
I'm having a lot of fun right now, but the pen should be perfect both in technical & aesthetical aspects before I would sell it.
One thing for sure, given the work involved it will not be a cheapy I'm afraid !
Francis
Thanks for your valued input.
I surely could add another stainless ring on the barrel, accentuating the ink view window.
Making the capring considerably smaller is however difficult.
Given the actual design there are several drawbacks in doing so.
Please read my reply to Old griz, who did a nice photo shopping job.
As what concerns selling these pens, I've not yet decided.
I'm having a lot of fun right now, but the pen should be perfect both in technical & aesthetical aspects before I would sell it.
One thing for sure, given the work involved it will not be a cheapy I'm afraid !
Francis
QUOTE(rroossinck @ Mar 13 2008, 02:01 PM) [snapback]543981[/snapback]
WANT.
Personally, I think that some of the issues that others have expressed with the width of the capband and/or clip length may resolve themselves if you did the pen in a single color plastic like black, blue, WHITE, etc.
Could you add a low-profile trim ring at the bottom of the ink-view window to perhaps add a little symmetry when the pen is capped? If you did the half-width trim ring on the cap and another equal-width trim ring on the bottom of the ink-view window, that might look pretty sweet because it'd frame the ink color in silver, visually drawing attention to the color you're writing with. Keep the demonstrator hood/ink-view window intact, and wrap it with color, and then you won't have to worry about staining the section when they fill it.
Oh Lord...white barrel, bling-bling silver trim rings framing the ink-view window? (I must go...I need a moment.)
The white suggestion isn't because I'm the resident iPod fanboy...but there aren't enough nice white pens in the world.
Where, by the way, are you thinking in terms of price-point for these? I need to find a bank to rob.
Personally, I think that some of the issues that others have expressed with the width of the capband and/or clip length may resolve themselves if you did the pen in a single color plastic like black, blue, WHITE, etc.
Could you add a low-profile trim ring at the bottom of the ink-view window to perhaps add a little symmetry when the pen is capped? If you did the half-width trim ring on the cap and another equal-width trim ring on the bottom of the ink-view window, that might look pretty sweet because it'd frame the ink color in silver, visually drawing attention to the color you're writing with. Keep the demonstrator hood/ink-view window intact, and wrap it with color, and then you won't have to worry about staining the section when they fill it.
Oh Lord...white barrel, bling-bling silver trim rings framing the ink-view window? (I must go...I need a moment.)
The white suggestion isn't because I'm the resident iPod fanboy...but there aren't enough nice white pens in the world.
Where, by the way, are you thinking in terms of price-point for these? I need to find a bank to rob.
Hi Tom,
Thanks for the compliment
I'm surely having a good time, from the early morning till the late evening working in my shop !
The pen is in fact an OS, being dimensionally very close to a MB 149.
Cheers, Francis
Thanks for the compliment
I'm surely having a good time, from the early morning till the late evening working in my shop !
The pen is in fact an OS, being dimensionally very close to a MB 149.
Cheers, Francis
QUOTE(Tom Pike @ Mar 13 2008, 10:15 PM) [snapback]544473[/snapback]
Francis,
You are having a lot of fun, my friend!
Great work!
Question: Which size is this pen internally - small, medium, or OS?
Cheers,
Tom
You are having a lot of fun, my friend!
Great work!
Question: Which size is this pen internally - small, medium, or OS?
Cheers,
Tom
Hi rapt,
Thanks a lot for your valued input.
I've taken your point, and it looks your not the only one having this viewpoint.
Please read my reply to Oldgriz on the same subject;
thanks again, Francis
I think you could narrow the cap band more still especially on the dark material pen. It looks "heavy" and unbalanced to the rest of the pen in the HR. The wide band doesn't have so much of this effect on the clear pen. I'd go with the width of the HR pen on the clear pen and for other HR or dark material pens I'd go to something more in the ballpark of half the width shown.
Also I think the longer clip adds length to the look of the pen. Shortening actually reduces the "sleekness" factor for me.
Great pen and amazing work.
[/quote]
Thanks a lot for your valued input.
I've taken your point, and it looks your not the only one having this viewpoint.
Please read my reply to Oldgriz on the same subject;
thanks again, Francis
I think you could narrow the cap band more still especially on the dark material pen. It looks "heavy" and unbalanced to the rest of the pen in the HR. The wide band doesn't have so much of this effect on the clear pen. I'd go with the width of the HR pen on the clear pen and for other HR or dark material pens I'd go to something more in the ballpark of half the width shown.
Also I think the longer clip adds length to the look of the pen. Shortening actually reduces the "sleekness" factor for me.
Great pen and amazing work.
[/quote]
Great work, Francis!
Keep it up!
Keep it up!
Great work, Francis!
Keep it up!
Keep it up!
Sign me up for the celluloid version of one of these when you perfect the design.
Dear Francis,
Hopefully we will see more of your pens soon :-) I can imagine that there is a market for custom built pens which are not cartridge/converter pens.
The overall design and size are great.
Do you think all the metal trims (clip, cap band, any additional bands you should decide on) could be made from sterling silver? But I guess stainless steel would work as well. I just don't like the idea of mixing trim material on one pen...
If I recall correctly from the demonstrator I was allowed to hold on the Cologne pen show I remember the "double bajonet" part of the pen (not the cap) being made of some sort of plastic ?! Do you think you could match this part being made from the same material as the metal trim works?
Also I like the large cap band; I would not shorten it too much. Did you think about adding some sort ov engravings (like on the wide cap band Sheaffer's) ?
This is interesting to see how such a pen developes and it is great to have the feeling actually working on its final design here on the fountainpennetworl forum :-)
I'm curious to learn about any changes you think of next
Cheers
Michael
Hopefully we will see more of your pens soon :-) I can imagine that there is a market for custom built pens which are not cartridge/converter pens.
The overall design and size are great.
Do you think all the metal trims (clip, cap band, any additional bands you should decide on) could be made from sterling silver? But I guess stainless steel would work as well. I just don't like the idea of mixing trim material on one pen...
If I recall correctly from the demonstrator I was allowed to hold on the Cologne pen show I remember the "double bajonet" part of the pen (not the cap) being made of some sort of plastic ?! Do you think you could match this part being made from the same material as the metal trim works?
Also I like the large cap band; I would not shorten it too much. Did you think about adding some sort ov engravings (like on the wide cap band Sheaffer's) ?
This is interesting to see how such a pen developes and it is great to have the feeling actually working on its final design here on the fountainpennetworl forum :-)
I'm curious to learn about any changes you think of next
Cheers
Michael
QUOTE(fountainbel @ Mar 13 2008, 04:37 AM) [snapback]543868[/snapback]
...
Do you agree this improves the look of the pen, or is the effect mainly to the difference in material ?
The clip was also slightly shorten.
Thanks in advance for your comments & thoughts on this new version.
Your input surely will help me in improving the design.
Regards, Francis
Do you agree this improves the look of the pen, or is the effect mainly to the difference in material ?
The clip was also slightly shorten.
Thanks in advance for your comments & thoughts on this new version.
Your input surely will help me in improving the design.
Regards, Francis
I'm not a fan of wide cap bands so I'd say get rid of it all together and leave the clip as the metal on the cap!
But I know that I'd put that pen on my list of wants!
Kurt
Hi Michael,
Thanks for your input & glad to hear you like the pen.
Answering your questions I would say that a sterling clip & cap band are feasible, but I expect they will increase the cost of the pen.
Today I've also added a stainless ring between the barrel & the blind cap, having an equal with as the clip band.
In my opinion its make the pen look more balanced, but this is a question of taste.
The clutch ring is made from a very wear resistant "high tech" plastic, being "Ketron Peek". Making the ring from stainless steel is possible but risky because friction between "stainless steel on stainless steel" will create high risks for gripping & fretting between the axial contact surfaces.
It looks there is no consensus on the wide cap band, but given some mechanical design aspects I can only make it a 2-3mm smaller as on the picture.
I'm evaluating the alternative using a four leads thread fixation between barrel & cap. Doing so I can make the ring much smaller;
Drawback is that I will need to make a metal nut and also a male threaded part , since I expect the mating HR threads will wear rather fast.
And on the other side: the double bajonet clutch quarter turn really works like a dream !
Francis
Thanks for your input & glad to hear you like the pen.
Answering your questions I would say that a sterling clip & cap band are feasible, but I expect they will increase the cost of the pen.
Today I've also added a stainless ring between the barrel & the blind cap, having an equal with as the clip band.
In my opinion its make the pen look more balanced, but this is a question of taste.
The clutch ring is made from a very wear resistant "high tech" plastic, being "Ketron Peek". Making the ring from stainless steel is possible but risky because friction between "stainless steel on stainless steel" will create high risks for gripping & fretting between the axial contact surfaces.
It looks there is no consensus on the wide cap band, but given some mechanical design aspects I can only make it a 2-3mm smaller as on the picture.
I'm evaluating the alternative using a four leads thread fixation between barrel & cap. Doing so I can make the ring much smaller;
Drawback is that I will need to make a metal nut and also a male threaded part , since I expect the mating HR threads will wear rather fast.
And on the other side: the double bajonet clutch quarter turn really works like a dream !
Francis
QUOTE(Michael R. @ Mar 16 2008, 02:38 PM) [snapback]547276[/snapback]
Do you think all th e metal trims (clip, cap band, any additional bands you should decide on) could be made from sterling silver? But I guess stainless steel would work as well. I just don't like the idea of mixing trim material on one pen...
If I recall correctly from the demonstrator I was allowed to hold on the Cologne pen show I remember the "double bajonet" part of the pen (not the cap) being made of some sort of plastic ?! Do you think you could match this part being made from the same material as the metal trim wor
Also I like the large cap band; I would not shorten it too much. Did you think about adding some sort ov engravings (like on the wide cap band Sheaffer's) ?
engravings are surely possible but
This is interesting to see how such a pen develops and it is great to have the feeling actually working on its final design here on the fountainpennetworl forum :-)
I'm curious to learn about any changes you think of next
Cheers
Michael
If I recall correctly from the demonstrator I was allowed to hold on the Cologne pen show I remember the "double bajonet" part of the pen (not the cap) being made of some sort of plastic ?! Do you think you could match this part being made from the same material as the metal trim wor
Also I like the large cap band; I would not shorten it too much. Did you think about adding some sort ov engravings (like on the wide cap band Sheaffer's) ?
engravings are surely possible but
This is interesting to see how such a pen develops and it is great to have the feeling actually working on its final design here on the fountainpennetworl forum :-)
I'm curious to learn about any changes you think of next
Cheers
Michael
Francis,
I was really happy to meet you in Germany and to feel and touch this brillant pen.
I really prefer in terms of look this new version for the use of hard rubber.
Not many inputs because most of the thing has been said before, but, as a potentiel customer, i would like to find this model with other "natural" elements ( not a 100% natural pen of course ) but the use of real celluloid ( not precious resin ), silver or gold trim, wood,could be another idea.
Even if it would be complicated to and to sell, but to offer limited choices such as:barrel ( HR,celluloid,resin,wood ),trim ( large/small ring,sterling,silver,gold ),and finally the moste easier part Nib ( large,medium,fine,...stub... )
I wish you a long and joyfull road with your pens.
Best regards
Jean Elie
I was really happy to meet you in Germany and to feel and touch this brillant pen.
I really prefer in terms of look this new version for the use of hard rubber.
Not many inputs because most of the thing has been said before, but, as a potentiel customer, i would like to find this model with other "natural" elements ( not a 100% natural pen of course ) but the use of real celluloid ( not precious resin ), silver or gold trim, wood,could be another idea.
Even if it would be complicated to and to sell, but to offer limited choices such as:barrel ( HR,celluloid,resin,wood ),trim ( large/small ring,sterling,silver,gold ),and finally the moste easier part Nib ( large,medium,fine,...stub... )
I wish you a long and joyfull road with your pens.
Best regards
Jean Elie
QUOTE(fountainbel @ Mar 16 2008, 09:03 AM) [snapback]547465[/snapback]
Today I've also added a stainless ring between the barrel & the blind cap, having an equal with as the clip band.
In my opinion its make the pen look more balanced, but this is a question of taste.
In my opinion its make the pen look more balanced, but this is a question of taste.
I think this is a great idea! Can you post some pictures of this?
QUOTE
The clutch ring is made from a very wear resistant "high tech" plastic, being "Ketron Peek". Making the ring from stainless steel is possible but risky because friction between "stainless steel on stainless steel" will create high risks for gripping & fretting between the axial contact surfaces.
And on the other side: the double bajonet clutch quarter turn really works like a dream !
I'm evaluating the alternative using a four leads thread fixation between barrel & cap. Doing so I can make the ring much smaller;
Drawback is that I will need to make a metal nut and also a male threaded part , since I expect the mating HR threads will wear rather fast.
And on the other side: the double bajonet clutch quarter turn really works like a dream !
I'm evaluating the alternative using a four leads thread fixation between barrel & cap. Doing so I can make the ring much smaller;
Drawback is that I will need to make a metal nut and also a male threaded part , since I expect the mating HR threads will wear rather fast.
While the double bajonet definitely is much more clever (and I can assure that it is fun to use!) thread fixation made from stainless steel might have it's visual apeals as well!
QUOTE
It looks there is no consensus on the wide cap band, but given some mechanical design aspects I can only make it a 2-3mm smaller as on the picture.
If the length of the clip stays the same the cap band should not get less wide; it might look strange if the clip only barely touches the cap band. Did you try a version with the clip ending exactly in the middle of the cap band?
Also will you offer different clip versions which easily can be exchanged or even allow the use without a clip? E.g by adding just a plain ring witout clip?
I love pens with easily interchageable parts like blind caps and cap tops (e.g. exchanging flat top with streamlined tops).
Also you should start thinking about a nice "brand icon" which could be stamped/engraved onto the pens barrel or cap band!
Michael
QUOTE(Epictete92 @ Mar 16 2008, 10:58 AM) [snapback]547561[/snapback]
...but the use of real celluloid ( not precious resin )
...sterling silver
...sterling silver
Yes, celluloid would be great but I think the hard rubber is a good start. Also the celluloid should be unique (not a color/pattern everybody else uses) and I can imagine this will be tough to find.
I'm saying this even celluloid is my favorite choice together with sterling silver :-)
Also I can imagine the pen looking great with a matte, brushed stainless steel trim.
Cheers
Michael
Love the HR version, and also like what Griz did to the cap band!
I am falling in love with both versions
I like the big cap band.
Any plans to make these available to buyers?
I like the big cap band.
Any plans to make these available to buyers?
Some updates Francis asked me to post:
update 1: added metal ring between filler and barrel for better "visual balance"
update 2: the flattop version really looks great!
....
update 3: two thin steel rings framing the "double bajonet"; this way the it becomes a nice design element rather than just something of "practical use" I think.
This is just amazing how Francis comes up with those new parts in no time! ...and it gets better every time...
Michael
update 1: added metal ring between filler and barrel for better "visual balance"
update 2: the flattop version really looks great!
....
update 3: two thin steel rings framing the "double bajonet"; this way the it becomes a nice design element rather than just something of "practical use" I think.
This is just amazing how Francis comes up with those new parts in no time! ...and it gets better every time...
Michael
That flat-top makes me feel all funny inside....
In a good way!
Personally not sure about framing the bayonet ring... I'd be tempted to make the bayonet in stainless and then it would be its own trim too.
In a good way!
Personally not sure about framing the bayonet ring... I'd be tempted to make the bayonet in stainless and then it would be its own trim too.
QUOTE(Rapt @ Mar 19 2008, 11:08 AM) [snapback]550877[/snapback]
Personally not sure about framing the bayonet ring... I'd be tempted to make the bayonet in stainless and then it would be its own trim too.
That was my first suggestion as well :-) but it seems that it won't work in stainless steel if I understood Francis correctly.
I never liked the white bajonet by itself but the framing makes it stand out in a nice "design"ish way; it now looks very high quality - almost like a brand specific "trademark" like Sheaffer's white dot or Rotring's "redband".
Michael
Michael, thanks a lot for putting my pictures on the board!
Unfortunately I'm rather clumsy with computer stuff & did not succeed myself.
As what concerns Michael's & Rapt's idea for making the clutch ring from stainless steel,I initially did so, but came back on it for technical reasons
The clutch ring is made from a very wear resistant (grey colored ) "high tech" plastic, being "Ketron Peek".
Making the ring from stainless steel has proven sensible for gripping & fretting between the (similar material) axial contact surfaces.
When closing the cap with one quarter turn, the section front backs-up against a rubber sealing ring, creating a moderate axial sealing & locking pretension between the clutch ring & the internal collar in the cap ring.
Making both elements in stainless steel is therefore not recommended.
Alternatively I could make the cap ring from chromium plated brass, then the clutch ring could be stainless steel.
Big disappointment today, I was told by a visiting Belgian collector that the system with the 2 separated ink chambers already exists & is used by Visconti....
I've just checked the site & although their patented system is not fully identical,it looks quiet similar.
I was not aware off this, I was simply inspired by the shut-off valve Onoto already used in the thirties & optimized this idea.
In fact I was happily surprised when seeing that one obtains 2 ink chambers with this approach.
Unfortunately it looks that I was not the first one who discovered this.
While Visconti uses the piston seal both for pulling the ink up & as as shut-off valve, I use a separate sealing element or both functions.
It looks that I could have a patent infringement problem when selling the Tribute......, see below
http://www.visconti.it/double.htm
Disappointing, but this is live.
At least it was fun to design & make my own plunger filler!
Thanks to all of you for your suggestions & positive comments, it surely encouraged me to make the various versions.
Regards, Francis
That was my first suggestion as well :-) but it seems that it won't work in stainless steel if I understood Francis correctly.
I never liked the white bajonet by itself but the framing makes it stand out in a nice "design"ish way; it now looks very high quality - almost like a brand specific "trademark" like Sheaffer's white dot or Rotring's "redband".
Michael
Unfortunately I'm rather clumsy with computer stuff & did not succeed myself.
As what concerns Michael's & Rapt's idea for making the clutch ring from stainless steel,I initially did so, but came back on it for technical reasons
The clutch ring is made from a very wear resistant (grey colored ) "high tech" plastic, being "Ketron Peek".
Making the ring from stainless steel has proven sensible for gripping & fretting between the (similar material) axial contact surfaces.
When closing the cap with one quarter turn, the section front backs-up against a rubber sealing ring, creating a moderate axial sealing & locking pretension between the clutch ring & the internal collar in the cap ring.
Making both elements in stainless steel is therefore not recommended.
Alternatively I could make the cap ring from chromium plated brass, then the clutch ring could be stainless steel.
Big disappointment today, I was told by a visiting Belgian collector that the system with the 2 separated ink chambers already exists & is used by Visconti....
I've just checked the site & although their patented system is not fully identical,it looks quiet similar.
I was not aware off this, I was simply inspired by the shut-off valve Onoto already used in the thirties & optimized this idea.
In fact I was happily surprised when seeing that one obtains 2 ink chambers with this approach.
Unfortunately it looks that I was not the first one who discovered this.
While Visconti uses the piston seal both for pulling the ink up & as as shut-off valve, I use a separate sealing element or both functions.
It looks that I could have a patent infringement problem when selling the Tribute......, see below
http://www.visconti.it/double.htm
Disappointing, but this is live.
At least it was fun to design & make my own plunger filler!
Thanks to all of you for your suggestions & positive comments, it surely encouraged me to make the various versions.
Regards, Francis
QUOTE(Michael R. @ Mar 19 2008, 08:52 PM) [snapback]550916[/snapback]
QUOTE(Rapt @ Mar 19 2008, 11:08 AM) [snapback]550877[/snapback]
Personally not sure about framing the bayonet ring... I'd be tempted to make the bayonet in stainless and then it would be its own trim too.
That was my first suggestion as well :-) but it seems that it won't work in stainless steel if I understood Francis correctly.
I never liked the white bajonet by itself but the framing makes it stand out in a nice "design"ish way; it now looks very high quality - almost like a brand specific "trademark" like Sheaffer's white dot or Rotring's "redband".
Michael
I'm curious: how does this compare with the system in the Pilot Custom 823? There's a similar vacuum-fill piston and shutoff valve. Have they somehow gotten around the Visconti patent?
QUOTE(fountainbel @ Mar 19 2008, 09:48 PM) [snapback]551056[/snapback]
...Big disappointment today, I was told by a visiting Belgian collector that the system with the 2 separated ink chambers already exists & is used by Visconti....
I've just checked the site & although their patented system is not fully identical,it looks quiet similar.
I was not aware off this, I was simply inspired by the shut-off valve Onoto already used in the thirties & optimized this idea.
...It looks that I could have a patent infringement problem when selling the Tribute......,
I've just checked the site & although their patented system is not fully identical,it looks quiet similar.
I was not aware off this, I was simply inspired by the shut-off valve Onoto already used in the thirties & optimized this idea.
...It looks that I could have a patent infringement problem when selling the Tribute......,
There is a possible way out of the problem.
1) Talk to the revitalised Onoto company, see if they still hold the patent for their idea from the 1930's. If yes, get into license talks with them. If the patent has expired, verify that the Visconti Patent is post the Onoto one. If it's the case, 'Prior Art' will supercede the Visconti Patent, and it'll be Visconti's problem not yours (may be expensive for you if they try to persue it though).
2) If you can't get yours based on the Onoto Patent (or there is no Onoto Patent - which would surprise me!), then you may have to talk to Visconti & see if you can license the idea for limited numbers.
This may be a way forward.. If so, I hope it works.
Regards
Richard.
Can the patent cover something as generic as two ink chambers?
But I am not any breed of lawyer, never mind a patent lawyer.
Looking at the moste recent photos, I wonder would a bigger nib look more balanced with the size of the pen?
But I am not any breed of lawyer, never mind a patent lawyer.
Looking at the moste recent photos, I wonder would a bigger nib look more balanced with the size of the pen?
Maybe Visconti wouldn't care so much about an individual producing a few handmade pens! They have bigger fish to fry.
On the other hand, it was shocking to read about Pelikan seizing pens in Germany that had a custom binde. What were they thinking?
On the other hand, it was shocking to read about Pelikan seizing pens in Germany that had a custom binde. What were they thinking?
Patents CAN cover just about anything... However the standard patent life is less than 20 years... Some may extend to 25, once its expired its no longer "protected" and anyone can use it.
(Not to be confused with trademarks with may be renewed indefinitely, or copyrights which have differernt rules.).
Just because someone else makes something similar is no reason to give up without further investigation.
(Not to be confused with trademarks with may be renewed indefinitely, or copyrights which have differernt rules.).
Just because someone else makes something similar is no reason to give up without further investigation.
Hi Rapt,
I think your right on this one, I'll try to find out how far the patent goes.
As I understand there would be more pen brands which are using the "dual reservoir" system, which is in fact the heart of the Visconti patent;
It would be very helpful to know which other brands are using this feature equally.
Anyone who can specify other pen brands using the "dual reservoir system?
Thanks in advance!
Francis
I think your right on this one, I'll try to find out how far the patent goes.
As I understand there would be more pen brands which are using the "dual reservoir" system, which is in fact the heart of the Visconti patent;
It would be very helpful to know which other brands are using this feature equally.
Anyone who can specify other pen brands using the "dual reservoir system?
Thanks in advance!
Francis
QUOTE(Rapt @ Mar 20 2008, 06:43 PM) [snapback]551883[/snapback]
Just because someone else makes something similar is no reason to give up without further investigation.
Hi Dr.Grace,
Thanks for your input.
I've searched for patents on the system used in the Pilot Custom 823, but was unfortunately not able to find anything.
Is Pilot equally using a "dual reservoir" system?
Any idea were I can find a description or a section drawing showing the system?
Thanks & regards, Francis
Thanks for your input.
I've searched for patents on the system used in the Pilot Custom 823, but was unfortunately not able to find anything.
Is Pilot equally using a "dual reservoir" system?
Any idea were I can find a description or a section drawing showing the system?
Thanks & regards, Francis
QUOTE(Dr.Grace @ Mar 20 2008, 02:05 AM) [snapback]551278[/snapback]
I'm curious: how does this compare with the system in the Pilot Custom 823? There's a similar vacuum-fill piston and shutoff valve. Have they somehow gotten around the Visconti patent?
Pilot uses a straight forward vacuum filler with an ink shutoff valve, as in the Onoto. The patent on this type of filler will be well expired, and so I wouldn't be concerned about using it. The Visconti double resevoir system, AFAIK is still covered by patent and as they are so proud of it I would not try using it. The only thing about the double resevoir system is that it tends to be more an annoyance than a usefull feature. The normal ink shutoff valve is adequate for air travel, and the resevoir on my wall street is too small for the hose that is the Binder Itallifine attached to it. Using the "straight forward" vacuum filler should simplify manufacture, increase the ink capacity and improve your nights sleep 
If you did want to persist with the "double resevoir" then there are a few ways to do it, firstly never reference it in a description, Visconti use the design as a selling point and would be upset if you did the same. Secondly if the reserve resevoir is part of the screw in assembly as opposed to a distinct chamber then you would be ok. I can't see enough of your designs to see if this is the case, but in the visconti the plunger stops a significant distance from the feed, and as such the first of the two resevoirs is a discrete manufactured unit. If in your pen this area was left for "manufacturing reasons" rather than as a feature you should be able to escape any patent problems.
I would also like to add my name to the list for one of these, though cannot decide which material would be best (though would love to see a 'sailor king of pen' version, no trim and black hard rubber).
If you did want to persist with the "double resevoir" then there are a few ways to do it, firstly never reference it in a description, Visconti use the design as a selling point and would be upset if you did the same. Secondly if the reserve resevoir is part of the screw in assembly as opposed to a distinct chamber then you would be ok. I can't see enough of your designs to see if this is the case, but in the visconti the plunger stops a significant distance from the feed, and as such the first of the two resevoirs is a discrete manufactured unit. If in your pen this area was left for "manufacturing reasons" rather than as a feature you should be able to escape any patent problems.
I would also like to add my name to the list for one of these, though cannot decide which material would be best (though would love to see a 'sailor king of pen' version, no trim and black hard rubber).
Francis,
Would it be possible to thin down the cap ring so that you could extend the cap over the ring? I would think that if this were possible, you could make the ring as narrow/wide as you like.
Cheers... G
P.S. - I have a quick & dirty sketch of this idea, but no idea how to get said sketch to you other than email. pm me with your email addy & I'll send it to you.
Would it be possible to thin down the cap ring so that you could extend the cap over the ring? I would think that if this were possible, you could make the ring as narrow/wide as you like.
Cheers... G
P.S. - I have a quick & dirty sketch of this idea, but no idea how to get said sketch to you other than email. pm me with your email addy & I'll send it to you.
Hi G,
Thanks for your suggestion!
I've already played with this idea, but due to the cap locking system this is unfortunately not possible.
Nevertheless I'll gladly send you a PM with my private E-mail, one never knows if I have overseen something.
I could make the cap ring less wide, but then the total cap would also be proportionally shorter, and I think the capped cap/ barrel ratio is now aesthetically optimum.
Thanks again & regards, Francis
Thanks for your suggestion!
I've already played with this idea, but due to the cap locking system this is unfortunately not possible.
Nevertheless I'll gladly send you a PM with my private E-mail, one never knows if I have overseen something.
I could make the cap ring less wide, but then the total cap would also be proportionally shorter, and I think the capped cap/ barrel ratio is now aesthetically optimum.
Thanks again & regards, Francis
QUOTE(drgonzo2 @ Mar 22 2008, 07:51 PM) [snapback]553976[/snapback]
Francis,
Would it be possible to thin down the cap ring so that you could extend the cap over the ring? I would think that if this were possible, you could make the ring as narrow/wide as you like.
Cheers... G
P.S. - I have a quick & dirty sketch of this idea, but no idea how to get said sketch to you other than email. pm me with your email addy & I'll send it to you.
Would it be possible to thin down the cap ring so that you could extend the cap over the ring? I would think that if this were possible, you could make the ring as narrow/wide as you like.
Cheers... G
P.S. - I have a quick & dirty sketch of this idea, but no idea how to get said sketch to you other than email. pm me with your email addy & I'll send it to you.
Very interesting to read on your practical experiences with the Visconti double reservoir system Shabubu, much appreciated !
As I understand the ink front ink reservoir is to small to allow a decent amount of writing given the special nib( & feed ) installed?
Could you please clarify this somewhat more?
I've also read on another tread that some users are not happy with the fact that emptying the front reservoir is very difficult, is this also your experience?
Best regards, Francis
As I understand the ink front ink reservoir is to small to allow a decent amount of writing given the special nib( & feed ) installed?
Could you please clarify this somewhat more?
I've also read on another tread that some users are not happy with the fact that emptying the front reservoir is very difficult, is this also your experience?
Best regards, Francis
QUOTE(Shabubu @ Mar 22 2008, 12:11 PM) [snapback]553657[/snapback]
Pilot uses a straight forward vacuum filler with an ink shutoff valve, as in the Onoto. The patent on this type of filler will be well expired, and so I wouldn't be concerned about using it. The Visconti double reservoir system, AFAIK is still covered by patent and as they are so proud of it I would not try using it. The only thing about the double reservoir system is that it tends to be more an annoyance than a usefull feature. The normal ink shutoff valve is adequate for air travel, and the reservoir on my wall street is too small for the hose that is the Binder Itallifine attached to it. Using the "straight forward" vacuum filler should simplify manufacture, increase the ink capacity and improve your nights sleep
If you did want to persist with the "double reservoir" then there are a few ways to do it, firstly never reference it in a description, Visconti use the design as a selling point and would be upset if you did the same. Secondly if the reserve resevoir is part of the screw in assembly as opposed to a distinct chamber then you would be ok. I can't see enough of your designs to see if this is the case, but in the visconti the plunger stops a significant distance from the feed, and as such the first of the two resevoirs is a discrete manufactured unit. If in your pen this area was left for "manufacturing reasons" rather than as a feature you should be able to escape any patent problems.
I would also like to add my name to the list for one of these, though cannot decide which material would be best (though would love to see a 'sailor king of pen' version, no trim and black hard rubber).
If you did want to persist with the "double reservoir" then there are a few ways to do it, firstly never reference it in a description, Visconti use the design as a selling point and would be upset if you did the same. Secondly if the reserve resevoir is part of the screw in assembly as opposed to a distinct chamber then you would be ok. I can't see enough of your designs to see if this is the case, but in the visconti the plunger stops a significant distance from the feed, and as such the first of the two resevoirs is a discrete manufactured unit. If in your pen this area was left for "manufacturing reasons" rather than as a feature you should be able to escape any patent problems.
I would also like to add my name to the list for one of these, though cannot decide which material would be best (though would love to see a 'sailor king of pen' version, no trim and black hard rubber).
The feed is standard, but the nib is reground from a broad to a itallifine. It was similar prior to the customisation, but is more pronounced now. The plunger on the filler doesn't seem to break the seal after being fully unscrewed and so flow is only really good enough when the blind cap is pulled an extra 2-3mm. Basically the flow gets really stingy after two paragraphs, and so I just tend to write with the blind cap fully unscrewed. I find the same with emptying the front resevoir, it requires an extra few millimeters of pull on the blind cap after it's fully unscrewed in order to allow the ink back out. I can see what they were hoping to achieve with the system, but you have to empty the resevoir prior to travel (or flying), and as such I cannot see what is gained above the standard vacuum fill and ink shutoff of the onoto (and subsequent Pilot 823) system.
Thanks Shabubu, I clearly see the problem now.
Most probably the piston seal - which also functions as shut-off valve & check valve- tends to stick to its shut-off surface on the section.
The axially low flexible piston seal is fitted axially floating on a conical seat over a restricted stroke of 1 -1.5mm , being only tight when pushing the plunger down. This feature is not shown on the Visconti simulation, it is however clearly shown on the patent drawing ( patent US 6,250,832 B1- sheet 3)
When pulling the plunger out, the piston seal will normally get stuck radially as soon as the seal leaves the enlarged filling chamber and enters the normal - narrower- piston chamber. At this moment only the plunger moves , till - after a further 1-1.5mm stroke -the front plunger collar contacts the seal & both move further backwards again. At this moment the ink in the reserve chamber -behind the seal - can flow back to the filling chamber (hence out of the pen) through the conical gap created between the seal bore and its plunger seat. In fact the axially floating piston seal acts like a check-valve.
Potential draw back- proven by your experiences- is the fact that the seal can stick to its shut-off back-up surface, since one needs a 1 -1.5 mm stroke to pull the seal effectively from its back-up surface on the section.
A little confusing though, since one should expect the ink can still flow through the conical gap between the seal bore & its seat when screwing the plunger 1mm out, even with a sticking shut-off.
Given your experience it looks the seal not only sticks on its back-up surface on the section, but also sticks on its conical plunger seat.
Aiming for a positive shut-off, while coping with barrel & plunger rod length tolerance variations, Visconti most probably applied a nominal 0.2/0.3mm axial pretension of the piston seal on its barrel back-up surface. This logically implies that the plunger has to be screwed open at least 0.3 mm before the seal can break from its seat. And even then, given the potential "double" sticking situation, the rubber seal will only axially deform a little when opening the plunger 0.3mm -remaining sticking on both surfaces- and not allowing any ink flow.
Only screwing the plunger further out will break the sticking , at least on one of the "sticking" surfaces.
Both sticking surfaces will only break positively loose after the axial plunger collar effectively pulls the seal backwards.
I hope this clarifies the problems you encounter, problems which seem effectively inherent to the "triple function combination" of piston seal, check valve & shut-off valve.
Splitting these functions- as Onoto did & I would do using modern sealing techniques- would surely overcome these problems.
Thanks again for your very informative posting, it really opened my eyes!
Regards, Francis
Edited for completion
Most probably the piston seal - which also functions as shut-off valve & check valve- tends to stick to its shut-off surface on the section.
The axially low flexible piston seal is fitted axially floating on a conical seat over a restricted stroke of 1 -1.5mm , being only tight when pushing the plunger down. This feature is not shown on the Visconti simulation, it is however clearly shown on the patent drawing ( patent US 6,250,832 B1- sheet 3)
When pulling the plunger out, the piston seal will normally get stuck radially as soon as the seal leaves the enlarged filling chamber and enters the normal - narrower- piston chamber. At this moment only the plunger moves , till - after a further 1-1.5mm stroke -the front plunger collar contacts the seal & both move further backwards again. At this moment the ink in the reserve chamber -behind the seal - can flow back to the filling chamber (hence out of the pen) through the conical gap created between the seal bore and its plunger seat. In fact the axially floating piston seal acts like a check-valve.
Potential draw back- proven by your experiences- is the fact that the seal can stick to its shut-off back-up surface, since one needs a 1 -1.5 mm stroke to pull the seal effectively from its back-up surface on the section.
A little confusing though, since one should expect the ink can still flow through the conical gap between the seal bore & its seat when screwing the plunger 1mm out, even with a sticking shut-off.
Given your experience it looks the seal not only sticks on its back-up surface on the section, but also sticks on its conical plunger seat.
Aiming for a positive shut-off, while coping with barrel & plunger rod length tolerance variations, Visconti most probably applied a nominal 0.2/0.3mm axial pretension of the piston seal on its barrel back-up surface. This logically implies that the plunger has to be screwed open at least 0.3 mm before the seal can break from its seat. And even then, given the potential "double" sticking situation, the rubber seal will only axially deform a little when opening the plunger 0.3mm -remaining sticking on both surfaces- and not allowing any ink flow.
Only screwing the plunger further out will break the sticking , at least on one of the "sticking" surfaces.
Both sticking surfaces will only break positively loose after the axial plunger collar effectively pulls the seal backwards.
I hope this clarifies the problems you encounter, problems which seem effectively inherent to the "triple function combination" of piston seal, check valve & shut-off valve.
Splitting these functions- as Onoto did & I would do using modern sealing techniques- would surely overcome these problems.
Thanks again for your very informative posting, it really opened my eyes!
Regards, Francis
Edited for completion
QUOTE(Shabubu @ Mar 22 2008, 10:17 PM) [snapback]554100[/snapback]
The feed is standard, but the nib is reground from a broad to a itallifine. It was similar prior to the customisation, but is more pronounced now. The plunger on the filler doesn't seem to break the seal after being fully unscrewed and so flow is only really good enough when the blind cap is pulled an extra 2-3mm. Basically the flow gets really stingy after two paragraphs, and so I just tend to write with the blind cap fully unscrewed. I find the same with emptying the front resevoir, it requires an extra few millimeters of pull on the blind cap after it's fully unscrewed in order to allow the ink back out. I can see what they were hoping to achieve with the system, but you have to empty the resevoir prior to travel (or flying), and as such I cannot see what is gained above the standard vacuum fill and ink shutoff of the onoto (and subsequent Pilot 823) system.
QUOTE(fountainbel @ Mar 19 2008, 01:48 PM) [snapback]551056[/snapback]
Big disappointment today, I was told by a visiting Belgian collector that the system with the 2 separated ink chambers already exists & is used by Visconti....
I've just checked the site & although their patented system is not fully identical,it looks quiet similar.
I was not aware off this, I was simply inspired by the shut-off valve Onoto already used in the thirties & optimized this idea.
In fact I was happily surprised when seeing that one obtains 2 ink chambers with this approach.
Unfortunately it looks that I was not the first one who discovered this.
While Visconti uses the piston seal both for pulling the ink up & as as shut-off valve, I use a separate sealing element or both functions.
It looks that I could have a patent infringement problem when selling the Tribute......, see below
http://www.visconti.it/double.htm
Disappointing, but this is live.
At least it was fun to design & make my own plunger filler!
Thanks to all of you for your suggestions & positive comments, it surely encouraged me to make the various versions.
Regards, Francis
I've just checked the site & although their patented system is not fully identical,it looks quiet similar.
I was not aware off this, I was simply inspired by the shut-off valve Onoto already used in the thirties & optimized this idea.
In fact I was happily surprised when seeing that one obtains 2 ink chambers with this approach.
Unfortunately it looks that I was not the first one who discovered this.
While Visconti uses the piston seal both for pulling the ink up & as as shut-off valve, I use a separate sealing element or both functions.
It looks that I could have a patent infringement problem when selling the Tribute......, see below
http://www.visconti.it/double.htm
Disappointing, but this is live.
At least it was fun to design & make my own plunger filler!
Thanks to all of you for your suggestions & positive comments, it surely encouraged me to make the various versions.
Regards, Francis
I'm sorry to hear that this might cause problems selling your pen :-(
There are some good sugestions how to check on those patents.
Maybe a classic style Shaffer Vac-Fil would do as well in case this does not interfer with any patents.
It would be a pitty NOT to see your pen in production because of this.
Please keep us updated....
Cheers
Michael
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