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Vintagepens
Red hard rubber pens are much less common than mottled, so there is good reason to take care to use the correct terminology when describing such items. Red hard rubber, normally abbreviated "RHR", is a solid, opaque, orange-red, though it was also less commonly made in a browner shade like terracotta. Mottled hard rubber, normally abbreviated "MHR", consists of a mix of red and black hard rubber, usually more or less irregularly patterned.

Note that many use the abbreviation "RMHR", for "red mottled hard rubber". I do not, which has undoubtedly bettered the environment by conserving hundreds of "R"s over the years. In fact, my real objection to the additional "R" is redundancy: mottled hard rubber is for all intents always red and black, so the color really does not need to be specified, and if one were to specify it, why not go whole hog and use "RBMHR", specifying both the red and the black?

OK, there are mottled rubbers using tan and black and green and black and a few others, but they are incredibly rare -- so rare that the material would be central to the description, obviating the need for an abbreviation. And the most common non-red, non-black, hard rubber pens -- the Waterman colored Ripples -- are normally similarly described quite prominently by their color names and as Ripples, again obviating the need for abbreviations.

Anyway, abbreviate as you see fit, as long as it's clear -- but please don't call mottled hard rubber red hard rubber!
david i
Waterman added to challenge by giving us a few patterns of MHR.

The early irregular stuff...



And a later MHR - which collectors today tend to call Woodgrain, but which Waterman in at least some ads (i have not done extensive review) still called Mottled.



And their mottling of HR most widely popular with collectors today- Ripple- sometimes even stamped on the barrel- is most distinct in appearance, even if it too is but a mix of black and red.



RHR does have its charms though.



-d
Shangas
David, what can you tell me about those first two pens? They look really cool! smile.gif
Vintagepens
QUOTE(Shangas @ Mar 8 2008, 09:35 PM) [snapback]539238[/snapback]
David, what can you tell me about those first two pens? They look really cool! smile.gif


The top pen appears to be your basic Waterman 12 (but could be a 14 or 13), one of the company's bestsellers. In production from c. 1894 up into the 1920s, most are basic black, but mottled versions are not uncommon -- finding them in RHR is tough, though! The pen is your basic slip-cap eyedropper-filler; the one shown in the picture postdates 1898, since it has the patent date imprint on the cap, yet probably does not date too much later, since that cap imprint was not used for all that long. The barrel may actually be a bit later, as the rounded cap top usually goes with a barrel end that is also somewhat rounded.

The second pen is also one of Waterman's standby models, your basic 5x series lever-filler, in production in one form or another from 1915 all the way through the 1930s. Eyeballing the picture, I'd guess it was a 55 -- less common than the basic 52, probably Waterman's most-produced pen, at least in the prewar era. Again, less common in colors other than basic black. Collectors nowadays call that red and black mix "woodgrain", even though Waterman literature never (to my knowledge) used that term, calling any red and black hard rubber "mottled" -- at least up until the introduction of Ripple hard rubber (which was termed, oddly enough, "Ripple").
david i
QUOTE(Shangas @ Mar 8 2008, 06:35 PM) [snapback]539238[/snapback]
David, what can you tell me about those first two pens? They look really cool! smile.gif


Thanks.

I don't have anything to add to David's comments, above, regarding identification.

On FPN, early rubber (eg. MHR) so far has had less attention paid to it amongst the vintage pensters than has the celluloid (and later) eras. A few reasons no doubt exist for this.

Some of this lack of attention I suspect is due to many FPN readers being relatively new to the hobby. whilst HR pens tend to be something to which collectors migrate as they grow more blooded in the hobby.

HR pens see fewer examples readily available as the pens tend to be earlier issue. The earlier feeds and often eyedropper filling system make the pens a bit more tricky to use on casual basis.

Rubber tends to be a more fragile- at least in the 60 year time frame - than celluloid or later plastics. Plenty of cracked rubber pens out there.

On the other hand, whilst celluloid (and other plastic) suffer crazing discoloration and crystallization-- it is possible that in another 100 years none will survive-- HR appears so far to be well more stable, suffering surface oxidation and fragility, but not from (it seems) such a hefty pace of intrinsic destabilization.

And, early HR pens were the substrate for some of the most beautiful pens ever manufactured, described today as "fancy", featuring shell and metal overlay.

But, if we are to stay with the theme of MHR, i can offer a few examples, which show why those-who-know are rather fond of this material.

Here is a spread (real space, not montaged) from my own wee collection. I have other shots- often of other collectors' collections- as well.

regards
david
kiavonne
Now that is an absolutely beautiful spread of mottled pens! The Conklin crescent fill keeps drawing my attention. If mottled was where I went, that would be the one I would be going for.

Curiousity begs me to ask about restoration of BHR? There is a pen I've my eye on, a Conklin crescent filler that has some discoloration in the middle of the barrel (unless it's just dirty). It seems to be dark still in the ends, where the slip cap has been on as well as posted. The cap has two cracks. The nib appears in good shape. I have no idea how the inner parts have fared at this point. The reasons I want this pen are somewhat sentimental, but I also believe it is one of the earlier crescent fillers (though, new as I am, that could well be a big misjudgement on my part).
Johnny Appleseed
Personally I like the term RMHR. Yes, it is redundant, but it does specify that it is a red mottled, not one of the olive or blue ripples. Yes, anyone describing olive or blue ripple would probably specify that, but it still seems useful to specify "red mottled".

If not using the abreviation, I would probably use the term "red mottled" in the same way I would say - "Waterman #12 eyedropper". Anyone familier with Waterman numbering would know that a #12 (without suffix) is an eyedropper, but for those who don't know the numbering system, including "eyedropper" makes it more clear (and makes clear that I am not leaving off a suffix). Of course, this justification does not work for the abbreviation.

John
Robert Hughes
How did you get the lettering to show white on the Waterman pens? Did they come that way or did you add that in restoration?
david i
QUOTE(kiavonne @ Mar 8 2008, 10:10 PM) [snapback]539411[/snapback]
Now that is an absolutely beautiful spread of mottled pens! The Conklin crescent fill keeps drawing my attention. If mottled was where I went, that would be the one I would be going for.

Curiousity begs me to ask about restoration of BHR? There is a pen I've my eye on, a Conklin crescent filler that has some discoloration in the middle of the barrel (unless it's just dirty). It seems to be dark still in the ends, where the slip cap has been on as well as posted. The cap has two cracks. The nib appears in good shape. I have no idea how the inner parts have fared at this point. The reasons I want this pen are somewhat sentimental, but I also believe it is one of the earlier crescent fillers (though, new as I am, that could well be a big misjudgement on my part).


Most well known restorers should be able to nicely restore your Conklin, though typical restoration does not address discoloration. Some folks (most notably on FPN, Richard Binder) offer rubber blackening service. There is disagreement amongst involved collectors as to the impact on the collector value of pens of reblackening, but if pen is heirloom and you want it dark black, such issues are moot, i guess.

regards

david



david i
QUOTE(Robert Hughes @ Mar 10 2008, 11:54 AM) [snapback]540934[/snapback]
How did you get the lettering to show white on the Waterman pens? Did they come that way or did you add that in restoration?


I often highlight imprints with water soluble crayon (not a wax crayola) for photography. It is not permanent and appears not to harm the pen.

regards

david
kiavonne
Thanks, David.
Dave Johannsen
QUOTE(david i @ Mar 8 2008, 11:49 PM) [snapback]539302[/snapback]
Here is a spread (real space, not montaged) from my own wee collection. I have other shots- often of other collectors' collections- as well.


Great Century straightcap! I wish that pen were in my collection! crybaby.gif


Dave
david i
QUOTE(Dave Johannsen @ Mar 11 2008, 02:07 AM) [snapback]541666[/snapback]
QUOTE(david i @ Mar 8 2008, 11:49 PM) [snapback]539302[/snapback]
Here is a spread (real space, not montaged) from my own wee collection. I have other shots- often of other collectors' collections- as well.


Great Century straightcap! I wish that pen were in my collection! crybaby.gif


Dave


Actually, i think i encountered that pen at Washington ten minutes before you made your rounds, a couple years back. A rare lucky find.

d
Dave Johannsen
QUOTE(david i @ Mar 11 2008, 08:54 AM) [snapback]541742[/snapback]
Actually, i think i encountered that pen at Washington ten minutes before you made your rounds, a couple years back. A rare lucky find.


I've been talking with Lynn Sorgatz a bit and he's got some interesting ideas about the relationship between Parker and Century (and other Janesville makers) prior to the mid-teens. I've also talked with Len Provisor a bit, and he's indicated that Century appears in the Janesville city directory for (IIRC) 1904. I think that there was quite a cozy relationship between Century and Parker in those early days (not really a suprise, but I'm starting to put together some fairly compelling annecdotal evidence). Again, thanks for showing that one off. If you ever were to consider parting with it (or that haul of Century ephemera)... embarrassed_smile.gif


Dave
david i
QUOTE(Dave Johannsen @ Mar 11 2008, 05:47 AM) [snapback]541784[/snapback]
QUOTE(david i @ Mar 11 2008, 08:54 AM) [snapback]541742[/snapback]
Actually, i think i encountered that pen at Washington ten minutes before you made your rounds, a couple years back. A rare lucky find.


I've been talking with Lynn Sorgatz a bit and he's got some interesting ideas about the relationship between Parker and Century (and other Janesville makers) prior to the mid-teens. I've also talked with Len Provisor a bit, and he's indicated that Century appears in the Janesville city directory for (IIRC) 1904. I think that there was quite a cozy relationship between Century and Parker in those early days (not really a suprise, but I'm starting to put together some fairly compelling annecdotal evidence). Again, thanks for showing that one off. If you ever were to consider parting with it (or that haul of Century ephemera)... embarrassed_smile.gif


Dave


I ran couple color copies. One for you one for Lynn. Need couple weeks before can send your way though.

d

Dave Johannsen
QUOTE(david i @ Mar 11 2008, 10:56 AM) [snapback]541836[/snapback]
I ran couple color copies. One for you one for Lynn. Need couple weeks before can send your way though.

You're too kind. I really look forward to seeing this. To this point, a dealer's countertop glass display case, some magazine advertizing, and some blotters is all the Century ephemera that I've managed to acquire. The prospective dealer materials will be quite a boon.


Dave
david i
QUOTE(Dave Johannsen @ Mar 11 2008, 09:14 AM) [snapback]541960[/snapback]
QUOTE(david i @ Mar 11 2008, 10:56 AM) [snapback]541836[/snapback]
I ran couple color copies. One for you one for Lynn. Need couple weeks before can send your way though.

You're too kind. I really look forward to seeing this. To this point, a dealer's countertop glass display case, some magazine advertizing, and some blotters is all the Century ephemera that I've managed to acquire. The prospective dealer materials will be quite a boon.


Dave



Oh you're going to like this stuff. Lynn pointed out to me a number of models he owns, based on their appearance in the catalog, when i dropped him his copy at the LA Show.

d
Dave Johannsen
QUOTE(david i @ Mar 11 2008, 01:21 PM) [snapback]541970[/snapback]
Oh you're going to like this stuff.


Oh, I can't tell you how excited I am about seeing it. School has kept me incredibly busy of late and I have been stalled on my research, but I am really excited to dig into those materials.

QUOTE(david i @ Mar 11 2008, 01:21 PM) [snapback]541970[/snapback]
Lynn pointed out to me a number of models he owns, based on their appearance in the catalog, when i dropped him his copy at the LA Show.


Lynn has one heck of a Century collection. I think that he combs the countryside around Wisc, so he has managed to grab some really unusual Century pens. At one point Lynn said that he would be bringing a chunk of his collection to DC this year for some show and tell, so I'm very excited about that. The bulk of my small collection dates more from the teens (the thumb filler era), so I really love to look at the early pens.

I also want to corner him this summer and see if he's managed to learn anything about Held. I've got one of the Held lever/twist pens that I would love to know more about - I've often heard Held mentioned in the same breath as Janesville.

Again, thank you for everything. I really look forward to hearing from you when you can get your head above water.


Dave
QM2
QUOTE(david i @ Mar 9 2008, 03:49 AM) [snapback]539302[/snapback]
And, early HR pens were the substrate for some of the most beautiful pens ever manufactured, described today as "fancy", featuring shell and metal overlay.


Shell overlay?... Could you please point me to some examples?

QUOTE(david i @ Mar 9 2008, 03:49 AM) [snapback]539302[/snapback]
On FPN, early rubber (eg. MHR) so far has had less attention paid to it amongst the vintage pensters than has the celluloid... Some of this lack of attention I suspect is due to many FPN readers being relatively new to the hobby. whilst HR pens tend to be something to which collectors migrate as they grow more blooded in the hobby.


Funny, BCHR and silver overlay pens were what made me want to collect fountain pens in the 1st place. This was years ago. But my first impusle never "took", simply because I could not find enough support and resources to feed my interest in them at that time, and since I did not even know what these pens were called, trying to search for information yielded no results. I bought a couple of filthy, half-disintegraded pens on ebay, got terribly disappointed, and that was that. Only now, after years of first using low-tier modern fountain pens, then progressing to acquiring collector tastes in modern pens, then slowly and gingerly transitioning into vintage, do I actually feel comfortable getting back to what initially grabbed my attention: the lovely HRs. Hopefully, this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship.

Regarding Hard rubber nomenclature:
Aside from the red mottled, olive mottled, blue mottled, and yellow-rose mottled, were there other colour combinations? I have seen mottled brown (for example, Conway Stewart), which seemed to be its own colour, as opposed to a faded version of red. Am I wrong in this? And did any other single-colour HRs exist other than black and red? I was sure that I've seen olive-green chased hard rubber pens that were meant to be that colour and were not discolorations of black. Any ideas what I could be referring to?..

Thanks,
QM2

Deirdre
Then there's other colors of hard rubber, too. It came in more than black and red. I don't currently have any olive or rose or medium green, but I do have several shades of blue, aqua, and red:






Photo on the last is by Leigh_R, but it's now my pen.
QM2
QUOTE(Deirdre @ Jul 1 2008, 09:09 AM) [snapback]656720[/snapback]
Then there's other colors of hard rubber, too. It came in more than black and red. I don't currently have any olive or rose or medium green, but I do have several shades of blue, aqua, and red


Holy-moly Deirdre, your Waterman 52V Blue Ripple is breath-taking, I wish I could afford to buy it right now. You know these blue-greens are my favourite colours, don't you! That FS thread is just painful!

I see that you've also got 2 of the deep-green Stipula Saturno's as well -- gorgeous! Mine is on the way to me now from Giardino Italiano, with a 1.1 stub nib. My first Stipula! I hope the colour is as beautiful as it looks in their photos and yours.

And the pen that looks like a teal Duofold is an Edison pen, right?

QM2

Deirdre
QUOTE(QM2 @ Jul 1 2008, 02:21 AM) [snapback]656727[/snapback]
Holy-moly Deirdre, your Waterman 52V Blue Ripple is breath-taking, I wish I could afford to buy it right now. You know these blue-greens are my favourite colours, don't you! That FS thread is just painful!


We share the same favorite color. smile.gif

QUOTE(QM2 @ Jul 1 2008, 02:21 AM) [snapback]656727[/snapback]
I see that you've also got 2 of the deep-green Stipula Saturno's as well -- gorgeous! Mine is on the way to me now from Giardino Italiano, with a 1.1 stub nib. My first Stipula! I hope the colour is as beautiful as it looks in their photos and yours.

And the pen that looks like a teal Duofold is an Edison pen, right?

I bought both of my aqua Saturnos from Giardino as well; I have a 0.9 and a M. They are lovely!

Yes, the teal Duofold-like pen is an Edison. It was one of three made, but Brian said he'd gotten more material, so he'll have a few more of them.

From left to right:
Marlen Atellan Tales Maccus Magnum rollerball, Stipula Novecento, Waterman 52V (vintage), Stipula Novecento ballpoint, Edison Pen Glenmont in Aqua ebonite, three Stipula Saturnos (the last is an LE for Bertram's Inkwell), Stipula Novecento, Stipula Bellini, and two Stipula Novecento Cromo pens (one of which I've sold).
david i
QUOTE(QM2 @ Jul 1 2008, 04:41 AM) [snapback]656706[/snapback]
QUOTE(david i @ Mar 9 2008, 03:49 AM) [snapback]539302[/snapback]
And, early HR pens were the substrate for some of the most beautiful pens ever manufactured, described today as "fancy", featuring shell and metal overlay.


Shell overlay?... Could you please point me to some examples?

QUOTE(david i @ Mar 9 2008, 03:49 AM) [snapback]539302[/snapback]
On FPN, early rubber (eg. MHR) so far has had less attention paid to it amongst the vintage pensters than has the celluloid... Some of this lack of attention I suspect is due to many FPN readers being relatively new to the hobby. whilst HR pens tend to be something to which collectors migrate as they grow more blooded in the hobby.


Funny, BCHR and silver overlay pens were what made me want to collect fountain pens in the 1st place. This was years ago. But my first impusle never "took", simply because I could not find enough support and resources to feed my interest in them at that time, and since I did not even know what these pens were called, trying to search for information yielded no results. I bought a couple of filthy, half-disintegraded pens on ebay, got terribly disappointed, and that was that. Only now, after years of first using low-tier modern fountain pens, then progressing to acquiring collector tastes in modern pens, then slowly and gingerly transitioning into vintage, do I actually feel comfortable getting back to what initially grabbed my attention: the lovely HRs. Hopefully, this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship.

Regarding Hard rubber nomenclature:
Aside from the red mottled, olive mottled, blue mottled, and yellow-rose mottled, were there other colour combinations? I have seen mottled brown (for example, Conway Stewart), which seemed to be its own colour, as opposed to a faded version of red. Am I wrong in this? And did any other single-colour HRs exist other than black and red? I was sure that I've seen olive-green chased hard rubber pens that were meant to be that colour and were not discolorations of black. Any ideas what I could be referring to?..

Thanks,
QM2




Hi...

Shell. Abalone. MOP

regards

david

QM2
Jeeeeeez... That puts modern ones to shame!
Are these yours??

david i
QUOTE(QM2 @ Jul 2 2008, 11:23 AM) [snapback]658044[/snapback]
Jeeeeeez... That puts modern ones to shame!
Are these yours??


That one is not mine. It lives in Maryland.

Having shot 6000 vintage pens at shows across the land, most of my pen images are not from my own collection. Digital montage lets me mix images shot anywhere.

regards

david
david i
Here is some more "ripple" for ya...



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