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The Fountain Pen Network > General Pen Topics > Repair Q&A
Fox in the Stars
I sent a Snorkel I had worked on to a friend to try, and she's having trouble with it:
QUOTE
So, Wednesday I was pretty much out of commission and didn't get to write much with it. Yesterday, I changed inks, practicing filling while I was cleaning it out... capacity is better (she'd previously had trouble with it not holding much ink), but flow is rather irregular, especially if the pen sits for a while. While writing continuously it goes from very wet to completely dry, and then after keeping it nib-down until the nib is wet again, very wet again to dry in the space of one page.

It seems happiest right after I've cleaned it out with water, and I can usually resume interrupted flow (unless it's _really_ out of ink) by wetting the nib with water or ink. I've been using Waterman Purple and Swisher North Sea Blue; I sort of expect it to write very wet with the latter, since my other pens tend to.

So, since you have more Snorkel experience than I do... does this sound more like a problem with the pen, or a problem with the ink? When it's working well, it's a nice writer, but most of the time I'm fighting with it. sad.gif


I can't think it's the ink and asked her to send the pen back to me, I just wonder why the pen would be doing that. Something wrong in the Snorkel tube, maybe?
Ernst Bitterman
I was working on an Admiral a couple of weeks ago, and I pushed the tube in too deeply when reassembling. It produced the same results. If the tube isn't right flush with the feed, try unwinding the blind cap until it is, and see what results that produces. If it is the answer, you'll need to warm the tube/plug interface to loosen things up, and draw the tube out enough to be far enough forward at full retraction. The inks sound fairly blameless, so it's likely a feed issue of some kind.
Fox in the Stars
Jinnayah thinks she's figured out what went wrong. She and I both tried putting silicone sacs in the Snorkels so they'd last longer (don't like messing with those sac protectors), but... (quoting her e-mail to me, with permission):

QUOTE
Um, you're not going to want to hear this...

But I figured out what was wrong with Merc's pen. It was one of the problems with my pen.
I'm almost sure it's the silicone sac.
Put in the new gasket (which is definitely a good thing. The old one is rock hard), but it still wasn't filling correctly. So, I swapped sac protectors/snorkel tubes with the black one, and everything squirted fine -- problem had to be in that part. So, I pulled out the snorkel tube, and the problem was obvious. Water was stuck in the silicone sac, interspersed with large air bubbles. I got a photo of it (I think); half the volume is water, and you've got big air bubble-water-another big air bubble-more water-air bubble. This was after at least three squirts -- one intentional in the pen, one unintentional in the black pen, and I accidentally squeezed it when I pulled off the sac protector, since I was expecting it to be empty. Playing around with it, I think something about the silicon makes ink stick to it in ways that it wouldn't to a rubber sac, and the ink gets stuck in there. That's why it'll start back up if she leaves it nib down for a while; it gives the ink a little time to dribble down the side. The silicone also doesn't seem to collapse as well as rubber when there's fluid inside of it.

To be honest, after playing with the sac outside of the pen, I think I'm going to go back to rubber except in pens that are prone to discoloration. sad.gif


I looked at her pic of the sac; the water was like, divided into sections inside it. It was pretty weird. Not the predicted failure with silicone either; I think we just had to try it and find out.

The pen is on its way back to me. I'll definitely check the feed like you said, but Kati switched to a rubber sac and that helped her pen, so I suspect that's what it needs.

While I'm here, tho, how should the tube feed be aligned inside the tube, out of curiosity?
rlukcs
Hi Laura,
some converters are also prone to a similar problem when new, ie. that the ink sticks to the plastic of the converter rather than flowing normally, Before replacing the sac, can you first try to clean it with some mild detergent (drop of detergent in a glass of water, and fill with that)? That might also help, and would be interesting for future repairs.
Martius
QUOTE(Fox in the Stars @ Mar 7 2008, 11:30 PM) [snapback]538243[/snapback]
Jinnayah thinks she's figured out what went wrong. She and I both tried putting silicone sacs in the Snorkels so they'd last longer (don't like messing with those sac protectors), but... (quoting her e-mail to me, with permission):

QUOTE
Um, you're not going to want to hear this...

But I figured out what was wrong with Merc's pen. It was one of the problems with my pen.
I'm almost sure it's the silicone sac.
Put in the new gasket (which is definitely a good thing. The old one is rock hard), but it still wasn't filling correctly. So, I swapped sac protectors/snorkel tubes with the black one, and everything squirted fine -- problem had to be in that part. So, I pulled out the snorkel tube, and the problem was obvious. Water was stuck in the silicone sac, interspersed with large air bubbles. I got a photo of it (I think); half the volume is water, and you've got big air bubble-water-another big air bubble-more water-air bubble. This was after at least three squirts -- one intentional in the pen, one unintentional in the black pen, and I accidentally squeezed it when I pulled off the sac protector, since I was expecting it to be empty. Playing around with it, I think something about the silicon makes ink stick to it in ways that it wouldn't to a rubber sac, and the ink gets stuck in there. That's why it'll start back up if she leaves it nib down for a while; it gives the ink a little time to dribble down the side. The silicone also doesn't seem to collapse as well as rubber when there's fluid inside of it.

To be honest, after playing with the sac outside of the pen, I think I'm going to go back to rubber except in pens that are prone to discoloration. sad.gif


I looked at her pic of the sac; the water was like, divided into sections inside it. It was pretty weird. Not the predicted failure with silicone either; I think we just had to try it and find out.

The pen is on its way back to me. I'll definitely check the feed like you said, but Kati switched to a rubber sac and that helped her pen, so I suspect that's what it needs.

While I'm here, tho, how should the tube feed be aligned inside the tube, out of curiosity?


This is very interesting. This revelation may solve the mystery behind my modern-made Targa converter issues.
Jinnayah
Here's the photo that was mentioned.
Click to view attachment
I think you can see where my three squirts were. The big air bubble at the non-business end is probably when I tried to empty it in the original pen, and then the two smaller where I squirted it while loading it into a pen I know works otherwise and then when I squeeze it after taking the sac protector off.
I gotta say, given the squirts I did get, those little sacs hold more ink than you'd think. wink.gif

I also find it interesting that this isn't the expected failure of a silicone sac in a pneumatic filler. The theory is that they would only partially collapse and not completely fill. I'd venture that this little guy was completely filled after my first go; he just won't completely empty again.


QUOTE(rlukcs @ Mar 8 2008, 04:22 AM) [snapback]538393[/snapback]
that the ink sticks to the plastic of the converter rather than flowing normally, Before replacing the sac, can you first try to clean it with some mild detergent (drop of detergent in a glass of water, and fill with that)? That might also help, and would be interesting for future repairs.

There does seem like there might still be some mold release in there or something. Mine's already back together with rubber. I imagine whether Fox can try it will depend on how quickly she wants to get it back to our friend.
SMG
As routine when installing silicone sacs I use a qtip and isopropyl alcohol and swab the interior of the sac. This removes all mold release and evaporates quickly.

I have never seen a silicone sac in a touchdown/snorkel filler before, actually didn't know that there were silicone sacs made in the correct size for the app.

Cheers,
Sean
Ernst Bitterman
My memory from other threads is that there's not pneumatic-specific silicon sacs, but one uses the closest available appropriate size (which, I guess, would be #14, as I've yet to see silicon in odd sizes). I've stuck with rubber because of concerns about adequate collapse, but I guess that's proven a mere bugbear.
Fox in the Stars
Okay, I took the silicone sac Kati had removed from her pen (swabbing it out with rubbing alcohol first), and a rubber sac that I had removed from a Snorkel (not yet aware of the problem, I thought I'd give it long-lasting silicone while I was in there anyway blush.gif but that made it available for the mad experiment...). I filled each with water with a drop of blue food coloring for visibility, then turned them upside-down in a mini-jar with a bit of paper in the bottom to wick them out.

I couldn't see what was happening in the rubber sac, but when I checked maybe a minute or two later I couldn't squeeze any water out; AFAIK it was totally empty. The silicone sac emptied halfway out within seconds... and then the other half stuck in the top. And stuck there, and stuck there. Here's the pic:



So yeah, I think this is a problem with silicone, at least at this small a diameter (#14).


ETA: We were using #14 for Snorkels and they were the slightest bit small, but fit pretty well. TDs (regular and fat), silicone wasn't available to fit, but they're not such a pain to re-sac either.

QUOTE(Ernst Bitterman @ Mar 8 2008, 09:59 AM) [snapback]538589[/snapback]
My memory from other threads is that there's not pneumatic-specific silicon sacs, but one uses the closest available appropriate size (which, I guess, would be #14, as I've yet to see silicon in odd sizes). I've stuck with rubber because of concerns about adequate collapse, but I guess that's proven a mere bugbear.


I have heard that Woodbin changed to a thinner silicone sac lately and we got the new kind, so collapse might have been a problem with the old ones, I don't know. Turns out you were right to avoid them, but I do like knowing the lurid details (mad pen science and stuff). ^_~
OldGriz
I had a conversation about snorkel and td sacs with Ron Zorn yesterday... he uses #14 standard rubber sacs for snorks and #15 standard rubber sacs for tds and has never had a problem
I use 14 1/2 thin wall for snorks and 15 1/2 thin wall for tds and also have never had a problem...

But I will not use a silicone sac on either... the walls of the silicone sacs do not compress as well as standard or thin wall rubber sacs do....
Fox in the Stars
QUOTE(OldGriz @ Mar 8 2008, 10:45 AM) [snapback]538627[/snapback]
But I will not use a silicone sac on either... the walls of the silicone sacs do not compress as well as standard or thin wall rubber sacs do....


See, my experience has been that that's not the problem with the silicone at all.
OldGriz
QUOTE(Fox in the Stars @ Mar 8 2008, 11:59 AM) [snapback]538643[/snapback]
QUOTE(OldGriz @ Mar 8 2008, 10:45 AM) [snapback]538627[/snapback]
But I will not use a silicone sac on either... the walls of the silicone sacs do not compress as well as standard or thin wall rubber sacs do....


See, my experience has been that that's not the problem with the silicone at all.


As they say in the car industry... "Your mileage may vary"....
dcjacobson
Silicone sacs are definitely wrong for Snorkels and Touchdowns. And you don't need those "thin-wall" rubber sacs that some people promote. Sheaffer sold hundreds of thousands of these pens with plain 'ol rubber sacs, and they worked (and still work) just fine.

Good luck,
Don
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