All:

I have taken the step, jumped in and am using Baystate Blue. There has been a lot written about it, so I don't think I can add much to the reviews. However, being the non-scientific type I wonder whether I should be concerned that it is not pH neutral. Will this cause damage to my pens? I am currently using it in a MB Marcel Proust and I definitely don't want to damage the pen. The Pen Doctor at Fahrney's in Washington DC thinks we should only use pH neutral inks (like Aurora), but I would love to hear your thoughts on the acid/base balance issue.

Thanks,

Andy W.

ps the label says it is in the 8-9 pH range

I believe acidity (especially pH of 4 or less) is a greater potential problem than slight alkalinity. Non-archival papers deterioriate because of acid content; many "archival" papers are actually buffered with alkaline to reduce deterioration that can occur because of acid build-up in some environments. Pens, of course, are not paper, but I believe that acid would be a greater threat than slight alkalinity. The base pH of Baystate Blue does indicate that it may not be compatible with other inks for mixing.

Perhaps some of our chemists or archivists can correct me if I am wrong.

This is an excellent topic. Can one of our experts on this subject tell us why pH in general matters to fountain pen usage?

See attached chart: BSB is 8-9 on the scale, Water is seven (7.0), soap is 9, sea water about 8 so.... I think the risk is low but the risk is still there of staining but not corrosion I would think. Note FPN has numerous posts mentioning soaking pens in a mild soap or ammonia (11.5). Human Saliva is 6.5-7.4 so even if you give you pen a good lickin' it should keep on ....Bic'ing?

This might not be the best reason why for I'm merely in High School AP chemistry but this is my hypothesis:

So, if anything, a basic solution, that is a pH greater than 7 would do more harm in general than an acidic solution. This is because of the OH- or hydroxide content within a basic solution.

Metals are made basically made up of an electron field with positively charged metal ions (This explains why they are malleable). With a greater OH concentration, there would be a greater chance of an electron from a metal to be pulled off and join with OH to make water. This decrease in electrons cause the corrosion found in many metals.

As for an acidic solution, I have no idea. Although it has to do with the reaction between hydronium concentration and the electrons in the metal, but I don't know how they would react. Perhaps we need a Chemistry expert for this one.

I don't know if this made sense at all. But I tried...

Acid eats metal. So acidic inks are harder on metal parts than neutral pH inks. I've got some Lamy Blue-Black (Iron Gall) ink in an Esterbrook J right now, but am planning to wash it out tonight, so the nib doesn't suffer corrosion.

Last time I checked OH + e does not equal water, unless you are talking about alchemy. Maybe you should hit the books a bit harder

RB

I guess, the fact that this topic is coming back again and again and again it means that "propaganda" works....
Your typical pen will not be damaged by a, pH 2.7 Pelikan 4001 Blue, pH 3.0 Waterman Blue-Black, or a pH 9.0 Sheaffer jet black.
These inks have been tried for ever and are still being used with no problem.
The major advantage of a pH neutral ink is its archival quality (does not react with some paper over time).
The very few vintage pens that have aluminum parts in contact with ink may have a corrosion problem.

See more detailed discussion in these older articles:

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/in...showtopic=47705

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/in...?showtopic=7814

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/in...showtopic=33753

Yes, thanks for correcting me RB, I don't know what I was thinking while I was writing that. What was I thinking?!?! OH and e don't go to together. Its the protons or hydrogen ions that combine with OH to make water. Nevermind my post, for it is fallacious. As for the corrosion then, I have no clue. Maybe I should ask my chem teacher.

Brian

But a strong enough base can eat metal as well.




I think that the length of time required for these reactions needs to be factored into the mix. Yes iron gall inks (acidic) do burn paper but it isn't done in an instant these reactions take time. If it did there wouldn't be a book from the middle ages left because the first monk who saw his writing smoldering would have probably raised his hand and asked for a different ink. And because these books were copied there was ample time for people to keep checking them. But there are books out there and many that haven't been damaged ( as well as many that have so I am not discounting the problem).

So maybe just rinsing out your pen between refills of any ink will protect the internals from problems because I feel certain that the iron gall acidic/ basic inks out there right now are not near the concentrations of the older recipes.


Kurt

Aurora is a pH neutral ink? First I've heard of that. I thought Slovenian Sheaffer was the only pH neutral ink on the market.

What do folk think of Sailor inks? I have heard that they are strongly alkaline. Is there any risk if you alternate a pen between Sailor and an acidic ink? Are there any other alkaline inks out there in the marketplace?

I agree with Kurt (he is a chemist, while I am not) that the issue of damage to pens only matters for aluminum or steel (non-stainless) parts that touch ink. I'm arguing from more than a century of sales of vats full of ink, including some inks more acidic or alkaline than most of today's.

According to a recent edition of Clark's Sampler, few inks are exactly pH 7. From my memory, some of the brands that stay between 5 and 9 (close enough to neutral for me) for all of their colors that Clark tested are Noodler's, the new Sheaffer Skrip, J Herbin, Sailor, Levenger, and probably some other brands I've forgotten about. Most "washable/eradicable" blue inks are below 4, with the new Sheaffer Skrip Blue and J Herbin Bleu Myosotis (Is Myosotis the taxanomical taxonomical name of the forget-me-not flower?) being among the few exceptions closer to neutral.

Aurora Black is not far from neutral (slightly alkaline?), while Aurora Blue is acidic.
One color (I've forgotten which) from Sailor tested out for Clark at 6.8, while the others are mildly alkaline.
Namiki/Pilot Blue, Black and Blue-Black are alkaline: the blue (not "washable/eradicable") around 7.5, the black above 9, and the blue-black around 8.5.

About mixing inks: Either a pH difference is not a reliable predictor for pen-clogging solids, or I haven't tried a mixture with a big enough difference. I suspect that other differences, such as between different dye molecules, matter at least as much as pH. Just make a small amount of a mixture, leave it for a few days, and then look for solids at the bottom of the bottle.

What Antoniosz said... I live where my tap water has a pH of 8 and the water in Lake Ontario (near where I live is pH 7.8). I highly doubt that this is going to suddenly dissolve my pens and leave them a pile of dust.

As an aside the scale is logarithmic. Each number represents a 10 fold change in the concentration of H+ ions. pH 2 is 100,000 times more H+ than pure water (which has equal amounts of H+ and OH-) and 8 has 10 times more OH- than pure water.

You decide which is worse since in the end we're all responsible for our own choices.

Personally I think BSB is pefectly ok.

I'm not as concerned about pH balance as I am about:

-- Flow: An ink w/ bad flow will render a pen either to be hard-starting or a good back scratcher (i.e., useless when one needs to write something). I've had flow problems with only Levenger's inks and Noodler's Highland's Heather.

-- Drying Time: I prefer that my writing does not look like I've drooled all over it or that I'm Jackson Pollack reincarnated. Good trying time will always trump saturation and colour for me.

-- Staining: Please do not start with the all ink stains. Yes, they all stain if you never flush/clean your pens. I'm talking about stains that deface pens. I've never had it happen yet. However, Omas Blue and Noodler's Iraqi Indigo both have stained sacs and converters. I still use them with impunity on c/c pens.

-- Clogging: Need I say an ink should not clog? I've had one problem: Noodler's Highland's Heather. It was banished...

-- Nib Creep: Some don't care but I do because nib creep often also means the ink splatters in the cap every time I uncap a pen. In capless models, the nib creep also creates all sorts of problems in the nib housing.

With regard to corrosion, a fellow FPNer informed me that Stacy at World Lux noted Cartier Bordeaux is the only ink they've seen corrode an inkwell. This of course was alarming. I have Cartier Bordeaux and use it often. I've not seen any corrosion, but I suspect this is the kind of thing that would happen over an extended period of time. So I've filled a Hero pen with it and threw the pen in a drawer. I'll check it periodically over the next couple of weeks or months to see what will happen. I've not seen any corrosion in the inkwells that I've used so far with Cartier Bordeaux, Black, and Blue.

Diamine Registrar's Inks and other Iron-Gall inks: I've heeded Richard Binder's warning. I still choose to use it, but I'm much more careful which pens I use w/ Registrar's Ink -- and I flush the pens often and thoroughly. So far, no problems... I have no doubt this ink corrodes, but I was curious as to the time span (and extent) of corrosion. Again, I've filled another Hero pen with Registrar's Ink to see what will happen over a period of time.

With respect to Sailor inks, the only warning I've received about Sailor is not to mix it with other inks brands. I've never mixed Sailor with any other brand, but I've mixed Sailor Black with Sailor Blue with excellent results. I make sure to flush pens that I've used with Sailor inks well before I fill with any other brands as well. I've never had a problem with Sailor inks.